A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

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Who is there to record the universes that are not finely tuned for life?

There are no universes not finely tuned in the exact same manner as ours. The reason for this is their arrangement as a metaversal sphere stack. The unifies the dark energy expansive constant and quantum relationships for all of them. The sphere stack is the origin of the dark energy constant. Fixed at a maximum of about 74%.
 
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Just what are the chances that we got the right kind of God? Just think of it, the slightest variation in competence, or desires, or intentions ....

The mind boggles.

Not really. The universe is not "intelligently designed" it is biologically produced and gestated.


It's an internal female function, not an external male, big bang/think up.
 
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A universe and world finely tuned so that all must struggle to survive and all eventually die.

Does this support the creator being a kind and loving God or Satan being the creator?

You are only in 1/6 of the universe. 3/6 is anti-matter and travels in the opposite direction in time on the other side of the "surface of the sea of glass". Also known as "Heaven."

Still think you are accurately judging good and evil with all the pieces?
 
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Lol I guess I am.

Would you agree that if I was tuned slightly differently then a different form of beastie would be a stowaway on my body?

And also am i finely tuned to carry potentially fatal Cancers, viruses and diseases?

Yes. Depending on you alkalinity vs acidity, an entirely different biome will populate you and saturate the neurons in your gut with their photonic information. Every DNA strand is a weak lasic molecule firing it's info in photon packets like a drunken rail gun or an aquatic dragon spitting fire.

You can either have a harmonic rainforest of biota feasting on fermented food and fresh veges. Or a wasteland of scavengers fighting for scraps of sugar in a chemical dead food wasteland.

Now you know why diet change has such a profound effect on depression and why no psycho therapy or happy pills will ever address the root cause.
 
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Belk

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Yes. Depending on you alkalinity vs acidity, an entirely different biome will populate you and saturate the neurons in your gut with their photonic information. Every DNA strand is a weak lasic molecule firing it's info in photon packets like a drunken rail gun or an aquatic dragon spitting fire.

You can either have a harmonic rainforest of biota feasting on fermented food and fresh veges. Or a wasteland of scavengers fighting for scraps of sugar in a chemical dead food wasteland.

Now you know why diet change has such a profound effect on depression and why no psycho therapy or happy pills will ever address the root cause.


Wow!

<Stands and Claps>

Well done sir!

Have you considered a career in politics?
 
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Eudaimonist

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Your argument goes like this

"I don't accept the constants, they are not constants, Scientists are wrong"

"I believe the constants can be different"

"Therefor the argument for Fine Tuning is invalid"

No, that is not my argument.

I'm not saying that I believe that the constants can be different. I hold no such belief. Perhaps they can't be different from what they are, and that would actually hurt the fine-tuning case, because if the constants can't vary, what need is there for a fine-tuning God?

I'm saying that we don't know the explanation for how it is that constants exist at their current values, or how they come to adopt those particular values if they could be different.

Without that knowledge, any speculation about divine intervention is premature.

What you are doing is a sly effort to shift the burden of proof where it doesn't belong. It's similar to the apologetic where the apologist suggests that a cell has some ridiculously small chance of self-assembling, and therefore an intelligent designer must exist. That doesn't take into account other potential ways in which abiogenesis might occur, even if they are not fully understood yet.

My argument isn't an argument from ignorance, but rather an argument that respects ignorance where it actually exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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JimFit

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No, that is not my argument.

I'm not saying that I believe that the constants can be different. I hold no such belief. Perhaps they can't be different from what they are, and that would actually hurt the fine-tuning case, because if the constants can't vary, what need is there for a fine-tuning God?

I'm saying that we don't know the explanation for how it is that constants exist at their current values, or how they come to adopt those particular values if they could be different.

Without that knowledge, any speculation about divine intervention is premature.

What you are doing is a sly effort to shift the burden of proof where it doesn't belong. It's similar to the apologetic where the apologist suggests that a cell has some ridiculously small chance of self-assembling, and therefore an intelligent designer must exist. That doesn't take into account other potential ways in which abiogenesis might occur, even if they are not fully understood yet.

My argument isn't an argument from ignorance, but rather an argument that respects ignorance where it actually exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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I really can't understand your argument, if the constants vary God exists? That doesn't make sense because you bound God with the constants when God is not Fine Tuned, He isn't bound by physics, He is the Tuner. In addition to these constants, there are also the arbitrary quantities which serve as boundary conditions on which the laws of nature operate, such as the level of entropy in the early universe, which are also fine-tuned for life. If one may speak of a pattern, it would be that fine-tuning, like a stubborn bump in the carpet, just won’t go away: when it is suppressed in one place, it pops up in another. Moreover, although some of the constants may be related so that a change in the value of one will upset the value another, others of the constants, not to mention the boundary conditions, are not interdependent in this way. In any case, there’s no reason at all to suspect so happy a coincidence that such changes would exactly compensate for one another so that in the aftermath of such an alteration life could still exist. It appears that the fine-tuning argument is here to stay.

There are two most common hypotheses as explanation about the Fine Tuning, Multiverses and the Theory of Everything. Which of the two do you wish to discuss?

I think divine intervention for you is something mystical like magic that's why you don't accept it, it is not. We are the images of God, we can reach the boundaries of the Material world and look the processes that shaped the Universe through our immaterial minds, without even travel back in time, that's not mystical, you can do it, i can do it, a kid can do it. if we could create another Universe the process would be exactly the same to create humans, as Carl Sagan said "it takes a Big Bang to create an apple pie"

I think chance as explanation of life is wishful thinking because we can't observe chance anywhere! That's why Atheists now move chance before the Universe into a safe spot that can't be observed and thus not falsified.
 
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JimFit

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Any one care to admit that our bodies are fine tuned for cancer and viruses? Or are you going to make an exception for this?

The fact that our bodies are destroyed by viruses shows Fine Tuning, the Fine Tuning doesn't say that we are immortal, it says that there is a reason for everything that has been put there therefor the failure of a system proves a structure. Your argument would be correct if we were indestructible.
Of course viruses are not by God, viruses are not causeless, they have a cause we can prevent.
 
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JimFit

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Just what are the chances that we got the right kind of God? Just think of it, the slightest variation in competence, or desires, or intentions ....

The mind boggles.

God is one because He is infinite, you can't use plural on something infinite, you can express God through universal values, Jesus said that you believe in God when you follow love, forgiveness, mercy, equality, philanthropy, peace, freedom, humility, patience. These are all accepted even by Atheists therefor the Word of God was the Truth because it is Universal. It doesn't matter if you think that God has four arms or that his name is Jim unless if your religion goes against Jesus Christ Teachings.
 
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JimFit

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Why are our bodies finely tuned to always hid the little toe on chair and table legs?

I think this quote is self condradicting, either "YOU" is part of your physical body or it is seperate from your physical body, if it is the first then parts of you goes for recycling therefor it demands "YOU" to happen, if it is the second and "YOU" is separate from your body how does he know that "YOU" doesn't survive death? I mean if "YOU" is separated as a different entity how can death affect it?
 
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TheStraightener

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The fact that our bodies are destroyed by viruses shows Fine Tuning, the Fine Tuning doesn't say that we are immortal, it says that there is a reason for everything that has been put there therefor the failure of a system proves a structure. Your argument would be correct if we were indestructible.
Of course viruses are not by God, viruses are not causeless, they have a cause we can prevent.

So God intended for us to have cancer and diseases etc?
 
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JimFit

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So God intended for us to have cancer and diseases etc?

Viruses are not evil by nature. Your argument is flawed from the beginning because you treat viruses as something that its only goal is to destroy living things, it doesn't work that way.
 
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TheStraightener

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I didn't have an argument. I merely asked in this fine tuned universe are we fine tuned to be killed by these things. I don't care about their intention, the fact is we are at the mercy of viruses and bacteria... Was this gods intention? It's a question. Not an argument.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Viruses are not evil by nature. Your argument is flawed from the beginning because you treat viruses as something that its only goal is to destroy living things, it doesn't work that way.

What other goal could a virus possibly have than to destroy a cell in the act of replicating itself?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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RichardParker

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The universe isn't fine tuned for life. I don't understand how anybody could make that claims.
If I looked at the universe and had to prescribe an intention for which it was finely tuned, I would guess more in the direction of empty space. Or black holes. Or just the goal of running out of usuable energy.
The idea that it is finelly tuned for life is like looking at a lake full of toxic waste, which has one small corner the wast hasn't penetrated yet (but inevidably will in the future), in which some microorganisms live, clinging for their life, and then say that this lake has been finely tuned for these microbes.

Life seems like an extreme after-thought of this universe.
Sure, different valuables for the universe would lead to different universes... some hardly able to exist, some more stable. And maybe some more suitable for life, but even if not:
If you draw one cart out of a deck of a billion carts, the cart you'll draw has a 1:1000000000 chance of being drawn... and yet it got drawn!
Rare things happen all the time. It only becomes remarkeble, once we attribute meaning to some events and not others. And it's nice that some here think that our existence is the ONE cart that HAS to be drawn, for some reason, but unless there is justification, the universe we have is just the one we have... No justification of inserting anything else.

Also, the argument applies that the universe even COULD have unfolded in a different way. I don't even know if that's possible. And if the universe could have only unfolded in one way, then there certainly isn't any fine-tuning that needs to be done.

So either way, if the universe could have looked differently or if it couldn't, so far there is no justification to claim fine-tuning... unless of course you can demonstrate a fine-tuner.
 
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I didn't have an argument. I merely asked in this fine tuned universe are we fine tuned to be killed by these things. I don't care about their intention, the fact is we are at the mercy of viruses and bacteria... Was this gods intention? It's a question. Not an argument.

Yes it was "his intention" (incorrect perspective). You get along just fine with the 100 trillion bacteria of 1000 different species in your gut. You would die without them. So yes, you are at the mercy of microbes. Treat the ones in your body with care, their healthy population keeps down and out the bad bacteria.
 
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