Expecting God to fit in our box.

Everyone has excuses to offer when they don't want to honor God.

If they don't want to go to a church building, then they can gather
with believers of a "home church" or form their own "home church"
The Bible mentions we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves
to gather, reading God's Word, prayer, worship etc.
In the Bible, people went to temples/tabernacles and met in homes/tent of
meetings etc.

The Bible also reveals that we should not let unwholesome talk/language
come out of our mouthes.

I bet those people who say such things also have plenty of excuses
for not doing any of the aforementioned things I listed in this post.

Paul K said:

Heres a question that I encounter often in my church. I am a lay leader for a church and I encounter this question very often. Especially when I meet people and try to share my belief with them. They often think that christianity is too rigid in our belief. In one case, a person said that avoiding profanity is too old fashioned, In another case, going to church is not biblical, and someone also mentioned that we put God into a box of our own design. So the question is, Do we put Him into a box of our own planning and designs? or Should we just allow the holy spirit to guide us and do what is pleasing to God's eyes?

Whats your thoughts on this?

Thanks.
Paul

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I despise that "Don't put God in a box" line that those who use it think is so wise.

All I hear is "I don't want to do (or believe) that. Sorry, God, but I'm doing what I think is best."

Do we put God in a box of our own design? Yep. I've seen churches put up all sorts of walls, extra rules, liturgy into salvation, and put the Gospel or God in a box.

Though the items you mentioned are addressed in the Bible. So it's not that these things are old fashion... but either we don't understand what's in the Bible or we don't trust the Bible. If a Christian doesn't trust the Bible as an authority than that's a major problem. Yes, we should follow the Spirit but if that spirit is contrary to the messages and words in the Bible then who's to say where that spirit is coming from? We are often foolish and futile in our thinking. We are often following our own judgment believing we are wise and spiritual. The Bible address things that are timeless. It's one thing to say "maybe we don't understand this" and another thing to disregard the words of Christ and those who were with Him... as if we're more spiritually discerned than them.

Paul K

God loves us and we are in his image his children and in the end we will return to him and because of that he wants what is good for us and according to his plan for the humanity.

Look to all the people in the bible that did not have/want the will of God, after the fall the people of God wanted a king like all the nations, and God gave them a king after more than a warning and we see that their desire was not good for them, to desire a king may not be against the will of God yet to desire a king like all the nations is against the will of God, it is like in Romans 12:2 conformed to this world...

We do not put God in a box of our planning, it is him that wants to lift us to a level that is worthy to the children of God.

About the will of God that is what should be:
1 Corinthians 15:8 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

If the Lord’s will for someone is to preach and he gives him the grace of preaching and he refuses to preach, to not be what Paul says: the co-workers of God in God's service 1 Corinthians 3:9, then how can the grace not be received in vain as Paul said, if we refuse to let his gifts to work in us and to be fruitful in us? If you are interested to read about it more read Matthew 25:26-30 and Luke 10:2 and John 15: 1-11

Isn’t a pastor working in the field of the Lord? Actually he is working so is everyone who declares the Lord, and of course each according to God’s gifts.

May God bless you

God is the one who defined Himself, not man.

When we say that God is in a box it is only because we use a few
scriptures to construct our idea of what God is like instead of allowing
the Holy Spirit to inspire us and take us farther than our box.

Jesus Christ is God's character towards man, express in human form.

Jesus Christ is the ultimate revealation of God's love, purposes, plans
and desire for all mankind.

Jesus Christ is God's character expressed in a single God/man.

Whenever people tell you all their objections, point them to Christ and tell
them that if they want to go to the Father of Christ when they die, they
must believe in, trust upon, follow and allow Jesus Christ to be their Lord
and savior. Tell them if they want some other god like allah or if they
want nirvana, they must follow another way as all ways do not lead to the
Father of Jesus Christ.

As long as you are stuck arguing about denominations, doctrines,
preachers or religious personalities, you can never convince anyone
of the absolute truth that is found in Christ alone.

It isn't our purpose to convince others but to instead give them the "good
seed" of the gospel of God as given to us in Jesus Christ.

If we will sow the good seed of Christ's gospel as given to Him by His Father,
God will do His part as only God can make the good seed grow.

Be a sower of the good seed.

Keep planting the good seed into the hearts of all who will listen.

Pray for those you have shared the gospel with.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through
Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,


Ministers of reconciliation, through the preaching of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

I really like being a minister of God's reconciliation to all men who will receive it.

When Judeo-Christianity started out, there was very little box to be found. Rules built up, and we continue to build up rules. Jesus chided religious leaders for adding more than was intended or necessary, and that tendency didn't stop.

So there are two directions -- yes, we add too many conditions. And yes, we feel guilty for too many conditions. We victimize ourselves.

We live in an age where we can easily learn more about God, and can access fellowship more readily; so I think we have higher responsibility for what we teach and impose on others (in comparison to 3,000 years ago).

But God's message has always been that we are to lean on Him, not ourselves.

Shattered-Reflections said:

Do we put God in a box of our own design? Yep. I've seen churches put up all sorts of walls, extra rules, liturgy into salvation, and put the Gospel or God in a box.

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I have two misgivings about that observation that I might as well pass along FWIW.

One, some of that is just how the church chooses to worship or interpret the Gospel. In no way does it mean that God is being restrained or his message modified or anything close to it.

Second, the claim that whatever one doesn't care for amounts to "putting God in a box" often means nothing more than saying that no one and no authority is going to tell me what is right and wrong. Well, the Gospel is indeed about what's right and wrong. How we live and what we believe DOES matter.

Albion said:

One, some of that is just how the church chooses to worship or interpret the Gospel. In no way does it mean that God is being restrained or his message modified or anything close to it.

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Maybe there is a connotation here that I'm not familiar, because I'm not sure why my post bothered you.

To me putting something in a box to subjecting something to boundaries that weren't intended or originally there. Like the Pharisees adding extra rules, like people requiring circumcism to be saved to name a few NT examples. I've seen Christians try to down-play or cut out parts of the Bible, and then focus or add things that aren't really in the Bible. There are people out there who's religion is more of a reflection of themselves than the God behind it.

If you don't think that's putting the Gospel or God in a box. It's okay if we disagree on definitions.

Albion said:

Second, the claim that whatever one doesn't care for amounts to "putting God in a box" often means nothing more than saying that no one and no authority is going to tell me what is right and wrong. Well, the Gospel is indeed about what's right and wrong. How we live and what we believe DOES matter.

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I agree with you, I think you might have misunderstood me? I never said there wasn't a right or wrong? I never said how we live and what be believe doesn't matter?

Shattered-Reflections said:

Maybe there is a connotation here that I'm not familiar, because I'm not sure why my post bothered you.

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I did quote you, so I was obviously reacting to the following:

Do we put God in a box of our own design? Yep. I've seen churches put up all sorts of walls, extra rules, liturgy into salvation, and put the Gospel or God in a box.

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So what part of that, you may ask, bothered me? You gave your "yep" to the proposition that churches put up all sorts of walls which you then identified as being such as "extra rules" and even "liturgy into salvation" (which term I have never heard before and don't know what it could mean). However, I wanted to say that while there are rules and there may be "extra" rules--whatever you had in mind you didn't specify--but we're not antinomians, are we? The church SHOULD preach God's instructions to us. And if you mean something has been added just for kicks, I guess you'd have to give me some examples.

Secondly, the liturgy is not something I consider oppressive or silly. Sure, I guess that some people prefer a service that's completely unscripted, but what can be wrong with the ancient way of Bible readings, sermon, Lord''s Supper, etc., which is basically what the liturgy is all about?

In short, if I were to agree that someone's putting God in a box, it would come only if he were REALLY being put in some kind of a box, not just that this or that way that one's local church arranges things is not exactly the way I'd prefer it.

like people requiring circumcism to be saved to name a few NT examples. I've seen Christians try to down-play or cut out parts of the Bible, and then focus or add things that aren't really in the Bible....If you don't think that's putting the Gospel or God in a box. It's okay if we disagree on definitions.

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Well, THAT I might agree to--cutting out parts of the Bible might amount to putting God in a box for obvious reasons. That's not what I read in the part that I replied to, however.

I agree with you, I think you might have misunderstood me?

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Possibly. We agree that it's possible to hamstring or supplant the Bible, but it's in the specific examples that we probably disagree.

Albion said:

However, I wanted to say that while there are rules and there may be "extra" rules--whatever you had in mind you didn't specify--but we're not antinomians, are we?

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I didn't give examples because I didn't want to fingers. That's why I named NT problems as examples in my second post.

There are some people that make worshipping on a certain day or worshipping in a certain style the difference between going to heaven or hell. Not just what is sound worship based on Bibical truth, but that if you don't worship the right way your salvation is questionable.

Albion said:

Secondly, the liturgy is not something I consider oppressive or silly. Sure, I guess that some people prefer a service that's completely unscripted, but what can be wrong with the ancient way of Bible readings, sermon, Lord''s Supper, etc., which is basically what the liturgy is all about?

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Never said unscripted services were good? The services I attend are very structured. I don't think that's bad.

Albion said:

In short, if I were to agree that someone's putting God in a box, it would come only if he were REALLY being put in some kind of a box, not just that this or that way that one's local church arranges things is not exactly the way I'd prefer it.

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I'm not really talking about preference, but when people take preference (even if based in scripture) into something it's not, like a requirement. Like speaking in tongues for example, it's biblical but it's not a requirement. Some people make it a requirement for spiritual baptism and thus salvation.

Albion said:

Well, THAT I might agree to--cutting out parts of the Bible might amount to putting God in a box for obvious reasons. That's not what I read in the part that I replied to, however.

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I'm sorry my post was too vague. I was trying to avoid writing out a long statement. I explained what I meant, if you I'm inconsistent or that I must have meant something different -- I can't help you there brother.

Shattered-Reflections said:

I didn't give examples because I didn't want to fingers.

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Yes, I can appreciate that. It just leaves the reader with a bigger likelihood of not understanding completely.

There are some people that make worshipping on a certain day or worshipping in a certain style the difference between going to heaven or hell.

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All right. We have an obvious example in the former case, but I don't know if there's one for the other. Anyway, these are quite slim as examples of any kind of a serious problem, don't you think?

Like speaking in tongues for example, it's biblical but it's not a requirement. Some people make it a requirement for spiritual baptism and thus salvation.

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Understood.

I'm sorry my post was too vague. I was trying to avoid writing out a long statement. I explained what I meant, if you I'm inconsistent or that I must have meant something different -- I can't help you there brother.

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Actually, you filled in the gaps pretty well IMO. I appreciate it.

Paul K said:

Heres a question that I encounter often in my church. I am a lay leader for a church and I encounter this question very often. Especially when I meet people and try to share my belief with them. They often think that christianity is too rigid in our belief. In one case, a person said that avoiding profanity is too old fashioned, In another case, going to church is not biblical, and someone also mentioned that we put God into a box of our own design. So the question is, Do we put Him into a box of our own planning and designs? or Should we just allow the holy spirit to guide us and do what is pleasing to God's eyes?

Whats your thoughts on this?

Thanks.
Paul

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Those sound like unbelievers comments, so why are you paying attention to them? Of course God isn't in a box, thats so silly to think any of us can put him in one when he created the universe, why would you ask that question?!

The only thing God ever asked to put in a box was the ten commandments given to Moses, not himself! Lol.

The second question is what every believer does if they want to walk with God.

The OP isn't referring to a literal "box."

Paul K - yes, we (believers and non-believers) have certain things we're sure Yahweh would do or say or not do or say. When the image we hold of Him or other believers is violated, that's outside our box.

Some examples are communicating with Yahweh - some believe that He doesn't speak anymore while others say yes He does, how church is done, how believers behave, etc.

No matter our boxes; there are still Biblical standards and truths. Actually as we study and learn more from The Bible, our image of Yahweh, other believers, ourselves, and others will probably change. Isn't that awesome?

See thats the problem with people and what God told us NOT to do..make any images of Him.

He gave us his Word, in the Bible and thats enough. That living word is powerful and active. We don't care what Jesus looked like...it was what he said that was important. If we live by his Word, then we won't go wrong.

Forget "image" - perhaps one of these will fit better "perspective," "pattern," "mindset," "frame of reference," "view," "point of view."

There's a big difference between putting God in a box and people who just say "don't put God in a box" just so they don't have to defend their position or beliefs about a position.


The first is a position that we can all tend to slide into at various times.

The second is something people say when they have no good arguments for their beliefs and they just want to use "Christianese" to sound like they know what they're talking about.

People who think of God intellectually or religiously fail to understand that God is a spirit, and we have to know him spiritually.

His love is so high and so vast and so wide that we cannot comprehend that in the natural. Who knows the mind of God that we can teach Him? When Job met God, his mouth was stopped. Moses couldn't even look at him, He was so bright and glorious he needed a veil over his face. God is light, in Him is in darkness at all. In Jesus, even when people crucified him,,He couldn't die! Men placed him dead in a tomb, a box as it were, but He rose again on the third day!

So ..what does everyone say to that? Everyone who believes in Jesus knows he could never be placed in a box. But the remarkable thing is, he sent his holy spirit to live inside of us! We need to see him through the eyes of faith..there is no other way.

Isn't it funny that when Jesus rose again and appeared to everyone that nobody recognised him until they HEARD him speak and he opened their eyes to scriptures? Even when he appeared to the apostles He admonished them for not believing the witnesses at the empty tomb. Blessed are those who believe and have not seen.

If christians have an image problem there is something wrong. Believers are being transformed into the image and likeness of His Son. Jesus is the man who walked on water..turned water into wine, healed the sick, raised the dead..so I guess if you're not expecting any miracles then I don't know what you'd expect heaven to be like.

People who speak christianese...

True, I once went to a christians women's conference and the the theme was..'outside the line' There was nothing really biblical about it and they just got that slogan from a christian pop song lyric. They charged a lot of money for it too. I went because someone paid for me..but honestly some of it was like going to a motivational seminar crossed with rock concert, instead of selling tshirts you got pushed dvds and books, and lots of speakers using christianese, which I take to be a blend of psychology and bits of scripture.

I think sometimes people might use the term of putting God in a box to try to justify themselves to act worldly ways but still call themselves christians perhaps? I mean the type of thing where you pay to go to a conference and then they ask for offerings on top of that, and then hype everyone with flashing lights and drums and charismatic charm and say God will bless you if you give them money. Well, yeah, but who's god are they referring to? The god of their belly!

as someone who has struggled with discerning the difference between being under law and grace..and imo scrupulosity this is important..
Ive come to find out that we are not under "the law" but are to be led by the Spirit...Read the following verses and consider them..

John 16:13
John 14:26-27

and if you say oh it only for the disciples what about this verse
1 John 2:29
Romans 8
Romans 8:1-4
Romans 8:13-15
Galatians 5:16-18 ( Mirrors Romans 7 and part of 8)
John 10


John 16:13
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

John 14:26-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.


John 14:26-27
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.


1 John 2:26-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him

( not that teachers are not important see Ephesians 4 )

Romans 8:13-15 (ESV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[a] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

Romans 7:1-6
Released from the Law

7:1 Or do you not know, brothers[a]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.[c]

Galatians 5:16-18 (ESV)
Keep in Step with the Spirit

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.



Also read Gal 4, concerning the law was our tutor, and how we are no longer under the law (tutor), and Gal 3:1-6
Search the Scripture through God's help for this..this could really help (scrupulous ocd) people

here is an excerpt from an email sent by Robin Bremer to help me understand and see also

It is great to meet you! My blog is for people like us hungry for the Holy Spirit. robinbremer.net Kingdom Living with Robin Bremer Kingdom Living with Robin Bremer. He is so much fun and allowing yourself to be free in Him and have a relationship comes from knowing you will not lose your salvation nor are you under the law. The New Covenant is about being led by the Holy Spirit instead of the law. The law will say "do not commit adultery" and will not help with that demand but the Holy Spirit will say "Start massaging your husbands feet at night and tell him how much you love him". You see HE is a much better teacher, helper and leader than the law. I believe that some of my videos on You-Tube will be a blessing in helping you grow in believing grace over the law. It took me over a year to be free from guilt thinking I was still bond by the law or not going to mess up and lose my salvation! Tradition binds us up by the Holy Spirit sets us free to have a fun and a funny relationship with Him through the blood of Jesus.
youtube.com/user/feedmypeoplejoy[/url]

"The JOY of the Lord IS our strength & when you experience that joy you will be forever changed!"


Robin Bremer


P.S. Follow our daily blog "Kingdom Living For End Times" at RobinBremer.net]Kingdom Living with Robin Bremer

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after I replied her that , which included some concerns about being led by the Spirit I got this too..

Just remember the Holy Spirit will never contradict the Bible but you have to understand the Bible in light of the new testament meaning that you are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus and your lifetime of sin is forgiven. When you understand it's all about Jesus and what he did and believing what he did then it becomes about a relationship and you don't want to sin because you fall so much in love with Jesus so let the Holy Spirit lead you guide you and direct you and use the Bible as your reference. I have so much to share with you but that's why I wrote books and why I blog so much so check out my YouTube and my blog and you get lots and lots of helpful life-changing information.

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In addition there is another guy, Robert Winkler Burke that wrote this...some of his writing like ?? also not sure if this was the point of Job..but

Righteousness and Holiness - Righteousness is good and so is holiness. But there is a big difference between the two. When we begin with God we must learn righteousness, which is learning, loving and obeying God's rules. A lot of people get stuck there in major pride-of-religion. And they really, really like it. They are the Christian Cops! They believe what they have achieved is it. Period! However, the saints break the rules of righteousness. So what gives? Well, holiness is that relaxed, close fellowship with God. It let Jesus pick corn and heal on the Sabbath. It let David eat the forbidden temple show bread. Righteous people are God's servants; holy people are His friends. Righteous people can't hear God's voice very well. Holy people hearken unto the voice of the Lord, which really upsets righteous people. Righteous people are rigid, holy people flexible. Righteous people might do a wrong thing in an emergency, holy people might do the perfect and creative thing because God might tell them and they might hear instantly. Righteous people have an extremely hard time understanding how to break the chains of rigidity and become flexible with God, who may be the most flexible entity in the universe. After all, God has to deal with six or so billion of us poor creatures, right? He is of course flexible, and our stiff-necked rigidity problem is pride. Righteously proud teachers say the book of Job says we must endure trials because we can never really know God. Holy teachers say the book of Job tells us we must endure great tribulation to get rid of our rigidity and pride-of-religion so we can hear, obey and really know God.


Righteousness means the quality of being morally right or justifiable.

Holiness means the state of being holy, sacred, saintly, sainted, or bles

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Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Difference_Between_Righteousness_and_Holiness#ixzz31iSkosTl
What is the Difference Between Righteousness and Holiness[/url]
but this what he said here was interesting..

I've heard things from Holy Spirit...he is literally so much easier to understand...gives simple revelation...he gives simple instructions and comes across as approachable and can be fun and of course loving as God is love....

remember Matthew 11:28-30
2 Cor. 3:17-18

im still trying to come to terms with this..and rest in this truth..like not fear..
since Gal 2:16 says we aren't justified by works of the law but by faith in Christ Jesus..
and of course its important to actually do what he says..I know I've messed up and not following simple instructions diligently..eg slow down, proclaim my identity in Christ..

remember John 16:33

(fyi I had to remove url links cuz I haven't posted enough