How am I supposed to know what theology is right?

Optimax said:

This thread is so full of doubt and unbelief that it is downright pitiful.

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Maybe it would all go away if you confessed it was all positive and full of faith.

MoreCoffee said:

Saint Timothy had more than the old testament; he also had saint Paul's teaching and his mother's and his grand mother's teaching about Jesus and the gospel that Jesus preached. So saint Timothy had an advantage over many Christians living today in that he heard the gospel all his life and believed it while many Christians today hear only a particular spin on the gospel and many have heard even that only recently despite being adults of mature years.

What made it possible for people to believe the gospel when they had only the old testament in writing is the way the early church interpreted the old testament - it is still the way that the ancient churches interpret it today - because the church interpreted the old testament christologically (they see Jesus in every part of the old testament just as Jesus had explained it to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus).

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Part of that was kind of my point. I think you expanded on it a bit.

I was specifically commenting on the use of that verse to "prove" someone coming to faith using "Bible alone". I do believe the use of the word "Scripture" in that verse applies to the OT only. I don't think (?) they were considering Paul's letters and such to be canon. Otherwise the Apostles would have settled that for us a few centuries before we got around to an agreement on the canon?

But certainly Timothy had plenty of teaching as well, which also dilutes the point of "Scripture alone" saving him. I was addressing the fact that that verse (IMO) can only apply to OT Scripture.

MoreCoffee said:

Maybe it would all go away if you confessed it was all positive and full of faith.

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Since the basis for faith is from God's Word that would be presumption as well as foolishness.

FreedByte said:

Even if I spend a ton of time researching all the different views on an issue and make my own opinions on it, how am I supposed to know that my opinions are correct? How do all of you go about determining theological truth? And once you think you've arrived at some conclusions, how do you know that you're right? Why does God expect me to know which theology is the right one and which church to join?

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Ask Jesus/Holy Spirit.

Willie T said:

I wonder why, when relating the Old Testament scriptures to people, Jesus OFTEN said, "You have heard it said...... BUT, I say to you......"

In other words, "The people who have been teaching you THOUGHT they interpreted the Scriptures correctly, BUT, I am now telling you what those words REALLY meant."
.

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I had a suggestion of doing a Bible study which should work out to have just this focus (among others), I need to get started on that.

Interested to see what insights may come from getting Christ's perspective on the OT Scriptures.

Optimax said:

Since the basis for faith is from God's Word that would be presumption as well as foolishness.

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Oh dear, now you're writing things that sound negative too.

Kylissa said:

Part of that was kind of my point. I think you expanded on it a bit.

I was specifically commenting on the use of that verse to "prove" someone coming to faith using "Bible alone". I do believe the use of the word "Scripture" in that verse applies to the OT only. I don't think (?) they were considering Paul's letters and such to be canon. Otherwise the Apostles would have settled that for us a few centuries before we got around to an agreement on the canon?

But certainly Timothy had plenty of teaching as well, which also dilutes the point of "Scripture alone" saving him. I was addressing the fact that that verse (IMO) can only apply to OT Scripture.

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Some of Paul's letters were written by the time he wrote second Timothy and saint Timothy may have read them (or may not have, no one in GT knows) but when I mentioned saint Paul's teaching I didn't mean his letters. Saint Paul did a whole lot of teaching that is not in his letters.

Kylissa said:

I had a suggestion of doing a Bible study which should work out to have just this focus (among others), I need to get started on that.

Interested to see what insights may come from getting Christ's perspective on the OT Scriptures.

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I think His perspectives were just what they meant in the first place. WE are the ones who have twisted a "perspective" into them.

It's akin to telling your son not to hit his baby brother........ and you come into the room in answer to the baby's screams..... only to hear your son excusing himself by saying, "Well, you never said not to tip the bookcase over on him."

chaela said:

In fact, if
it weren't for having experienced denominational churches—
including the non-denominational denominations —
I don't think I would've acquired this appreciation I now
have for the sacramental richness of the Catholic worship-style. ]

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I will agree with you there.

Not only have I found tidbits of great value in a number of different churches, what is missing in some makes me appreciate it that much more in others.

And that goes in many directions - not just one church compared to another, but many churches compared to others.

It helps me have appreciation for many aspects of church and worship.

Willie T said:

I think His perspectives were just what they meant in the first place. WE are the ones who have twisted a "perspective" into them.

It's akin to telling your son not to hit his baby brother........ and you come into the room in answer to the baby's screams..... only to hear your son excusing himself by saying, "Well, you never said not to tip the bookcase over on him."

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Well, certainly.

One would have to think that whichever of the Trinity inspired the Holy Scriptures, they must still represented the mind of Christ, if they are One.

And good analogy - we humans sometimes tend to do that don't we?

I have found that the church is always before me, because I believe the people I saw in this world are the same ones I saw in heaven. the church is not done growing in this world and she is not limited to concepts birthed by the idea that non-being exist alongside being. which is what this temporal world is composed of, that which is not and that which is. the church is that which is and that which is not are those evil elements that could not endure the fire. I don't even know how this reality even exist or how i'm here or why no one sees what is right in front of their eyes. most people don't believe that the church came from heaven though, they think it is something that came about in this earth when really this earth came about because of the church and the love of God.

i see and hear the church in all kinds of ways, she is constantly singing praises and glories to God and only those in heaven sing along with her or listen to her voice, because the earth only knows the things of earth but I hear the bride of God in all of humanity, I wonder how much more God hears her. there is not one being that does not cry out to God for their being, though they may not even know that they love him for a moment ( compared to eternity ), that is what being ignorant is, not knowing. it gives a horrible perspective of reality.

everything is fine and good if it is with the Lord though, i am by no means rejecting the churches, only their shadows and demons.

MoreCoffee said:

Oh dear, now you're writing things that sound negative too.

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It may sound "negative" to you.

However many believe that are "in faith" while they are actually in presumption and/or foolishness.

That is because they do not understand what faith is, how faith works, and how to do faith on purpose.

Maybe the real question should be, "What happens if we don't get our theology right?"

Keep in mind that bad theology is not really about misunderstanding Scripture, but about refusing to accept the obvious, a hard task needing dependence on God to achieve, and substituting it with an easier task, achievable without God.

In the Old Covenant, this getting things wrong did happen and the consequences were different from now.

God (Rock) wanted His followers to do death risking stuff (Christ) in order to be a blessing to the world and when they disbelieved, He was unhappy and His wrath came upon them.

1 Corinthians 10:[bless and do not curse]1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness

When they believed, He empowered them and they overcame, and were justified (confirmed to be truly His People and received protection from the Destroyer).

Galatians 3:24So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

The Law did this by killing us:

Romans 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended
to bring life actually brought death.

The only person that the Law brought life to was Christ.


Thus the faithful did not become blessing to the world. That happened only together with future believers.

Hebrews 11:39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Now that we are not under the manifestation of the Eternal Law by the Old Covenant (Torah, Law) , faith which resulted in death, but the new terms and conditions of the Covenant of grace , faith resulting in life through union with Christ, we can face life threatening tasks, , be justified (be confirmed as God's People) overcome and win the race.

The parallels (I am only listing results of obedience, disobedience led to judgment,wrath, exile, for both old and new Covenant-ers)

Face enemy (dependence on things of the world, survival efforts) >depend on God >overcome >enjoy the benefit of obedience >protection by the terms and conditions of the covenant of torah interpretation of the Eternal Law (examples: remnant, Joshua, Caleb).

Face enemy (dependence on things of the world, survival efforts ) >depend on God >overcome >enjoy the benefit of obedience >empowerment through the terms and conditions of the covenant of grace (hundred times land, family, etc in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, olam haba).

I repeat, the Rock was Christ, the teaching that looking out for yourself was idolatry, and laying down your life for your fellowman was worshipping God, leading to resurrection towards blessing the world.

1 Corinthians 10:Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”

Bad theology isn't wrong theology, its rejecting the obvious (Moses said it wasn't difficult to know what God wanted, it was in everyone's mouth, both the understanding of the requirement and the need for dependence on God to meet that requirement) and substituting it with idolatory:

Jeremiah 7:The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me. 19“Do they spite Me?” declares the LORD. “Is it not themselves they spite, to their own shame?”

Does your church teach the impracticality of following Christ through dependence in Christ? Red flag!

Consider the word "Theology" itself, and that should give you a clue. An "...ology" is knowledge about something. But we need not know about God so much as we need to know God....

The danger here is idolatry. It is making an idol of the intellectual assertions of human beings over the direct experience of God in our lives. Drop the idol and let God show you, as He will, in accordance with your own sincerity. If it is indeed intellectual knowledge that you need, He will lead you to the right sources. If it is conversion from a path of sin, then He will give you the grace you need to convert, and so on through all the virtues and gifts.

I have never known the Holy Spirit to fail in leading, warning, or chastising anyone who seeks Christ.

FreedByte said:

Even if I spend a ton of time researching all the different views on an issue and make my own opinions on it, how am I supposed to know that my opinions are correct? How do all of you go about determining theological truth? And once you think you've arrived at some conclusions, how do you know that you're right? Why does God expect me to know which theology is the right one and which church to join?

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It's all very simple, my friend: you know a tree by its fruit.

You know how to pick a ripe banana from a spoiled one at the store, right? You know how to tell if it's about to rain or about to shine by looking at the clouds, right? So look at the signs and follow the fruit. The mysteries of the universe are so simple thanks to our God.

childofdust said:

It's all very simple, my friend: you know a tree by its fruit.

You know how to pick a ripe banana from a spoiled one at the store, right? You know how to tell if it's about to rain or about to shine by looking at the clouds, right? So look at the signs and follow the fruit. The mysteries of the universe are so simple thanks to our God.

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As simple as I like to keep things, this is even silliness to me.

sunlover1 said:

Or maybe even something else. Maybe it's ME standing in the need of correction. Either way, it's not about "who's more right" than the next person. It's about BEING who He created us to BE "to" the next person. GT is about searching out truth and problem solving and debate and banter, but our 'religion' is about Love and compassion. IMO

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We are always in need of correction. The thing is, true doctrine is just as important as love and compassion. True doctrine tells us Who God is so that we can love Him as He is.

sculleywr said:

We are always in need of correction.

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If you ever find one refutable Christian on this or other forums, except myself, please don't let me know, ie, I'm old and could have the 'big one'.

The thing is, true doctrine is just as important as love and compassion. True doctrine tells us Who God is so that we can love Him as He is.

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Old correctable Jack

btw only a handful on the planet was and is heartfully correctable in the past decades, ie, a head's up, however over 3 decades ago, multitudes refutable for sure.

Optimax said:

It may sound "negative" to you.

However many believe that are "in faith" while they are actually in presumption and/or foolishness.

That is because they do not understand what faith is, how faith works, and how to do faith on purpose.

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No doubt you'll tell us "how to do faith on purpose".

FreedByte said:

Even if I spend a ton of time researching all the different views on an issue and make my own opinions on it, how am I supposed to know that my opinions are correct? How do all of you go about determining theological truth? And once you think you've arrived at some conclusions, how do you know that you're right? Why does God expect me to know which theology is the right one and which church to join?

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You don't. They are all wrong. Only God is right. We just do our best to reach Him in the ways that resonate with us and hope that we are doing ok.