LDS: Who is this man?

...and this couldn't be brought up on the numerous other threads why now?

Given that Joseph was not the father of Fanny Alger's child, the current scholarly hypothesis is that Fanny was a "girl in trouble" and that Joseph originally sought to take her in to help provide for her (remember; there was no social support system for such a girl back then).

Ironhold said:

...and this couldn't be brought up on the numerous other threads why now?

Given that Joseph was not the father of Fanny Alger's child, the current scholarly hypothesis is that Fanny was a "girl in trouble" and that Joseph originally sought to take her in to help provide for her (remember; there was no social support system for such a girl back then).

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This is your rationalization for Joseph Smith's taking the girl into the hay mow for the purpose of adulterous/immoral behavior? Seriously? Are you also in agreement with these creeps who justify rape by saying, "Can't you tell by that short skirt that she was asking for it?"

Moodshadow said:

This is your rationalization for Joseph Smith's taking the girl into the hay mow for the purpose of adulterous/immoral behavior? Seriously? Are you also in agreement with these creeps who justify rape by saying, "Can't you tell by that short skirt that she was asking for it?"

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"Taking her into the hay mow"?

As it is, the website lists one source for what supposedly went down.

You guys have refused to let me get by in the past on just "one source", and so I ask now if there's anything else to back this up.

Ironhold said:

"Taking her into the hay mow"?

As it is, the website lists one source for what supposedly went down.

You guys have refused to let me get by in the past on just "one source", and so I ask now if there's anything else to back this up.

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From page 66 of Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery:

Emma took Fanny Alger into her home early in 1835. Fanny's parents and brother were members of the church. Benjamin F. Johnson said she was "A varry nice & Comly young woman about my own age. towards whoom not only mySelf but every one Seemed partial for the ameability of her character and it was whispered eaven then that Joseph Loved her." But Joseph loved her indiscreetly, for Warren Parrish told Benjamin Johnson "That He himself & Oliver Cowdery did know that Joseph had Fanny Alger as a wife for They were spied upon & found together."

William McLellin told his account of Joseph and Fanny Alger to a newspaper reporter in 1875. "[McLellin]...informed me of the spot where the first well authenticated case of polygamy took place, in which Joseph Smith was 'sealed' to the hired girl. The 'sealing' took place in a barn on the hay mow, and was witnessed by Mrs. Smith through a crack in the door!...Long afterwards when he visited Mrs. Emma Smith...she then and there declared on her honor that it was a fact - 'saw it with her own eyes.' " In an 1872 letter McLellin gave other details of the story. He said that Emma missed both Fanny and Joseph one night, and went to look for them. She "saw him and Fanny in the barn together alone. She looked through the crack and saw the transaction!!! She told me this story too was verily true." Joseph's theology may have allowed him to marry Fanny, but Emma was not ready to share her marriage with another woman. When Fanny's pregnancy became obvious, Emma forced her to leave.

These paragraphs, taken from the above-referenced biography of Emma Smith, were very carefully copied by me from the book. All spelling and punctuation has been copied exactly as it appeared in the book. The quotations are documented, and if you wish to have those documentations, let me know and I will post those, as well.

Oh, and by the way, Ironhold, did you know that your beloved "prophet, seer, and revelator" also had Eliza R. Snow as one of his secret polygamous "wives?" And by "secret," obviously I mean it was only a secret from Emma, because everyone knows now that Eliza R. Snow, "Zion's poetess" and author of "O My Father," that famous hymn that speaks of Heavenly Mother, was one of his multitudinous polygamous wives; it's a matter of public record. Although the two women were dear friends, Emma had no idea that Eliza, who was living under the Smiths' home for a time, was getting a lot more from her husband than his gracious hospitality. When Emma did find out - according to Newell's and Avery's book, again...

When the full realization of the relationship between her friend Eliza and her husband Joseph came to her, Emma was stunned. She unquestionably reacted strongly, but the incident is so shrouded in Mormon folk tale and legend that it becomes difficult to determine what actually happened. Although no contemporary account of the incident between Emma and Eliza remains extant, evidence leads to the conclusion that some sort of physical confrontation occurred between the two women. In 1886 Wilhelm Wyl published the first known version of the incident in his anti-Mormon book, Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and His Friends: "They say...there is scarcely a Mormon unacquainted with the fact that Sister Emma...soon found out the little compromise arranged between Joseph and Eliza. Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge; and the harsh treatment received at Emma's hands is said to have destroyed Eliza's hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet's son."

There was probably more truth than "folk tale" in this story. Another account I read some time in the past related that Emma, in her rage of betrayal, pushed the pregnant Eliza down a flight of stairs, later causing her to miscarry, and forced her to move out of their home. Eliza R. Snow went west with Brigham Young after Joseph Smith was killed and later became one of Young's many wives but remained childless to her death. The two women were never again friends after that incident, needless to say.

I step away for a little while and people take shots at me. Yeesh.

That being said -

Deseret News on the DNA testing of Joseph Smith's alleged offspring. As of 2007, when the article was written, there was no evidence to indicate that any woman other than Emma bore Joseph any children. Most of the supposed male offspring - including Fanny Alger's child - were ruled out, and the available tests were unreliable when it came to determining parentage for women. (Before anyone says anything, it was Wikipedia that gave me the link.)

Then there's the dispute over how many of his supposed wives were simply sealed and how many were actually taken as wives in the proper sense.

This is actually a somewhat murky historical issue, but far too many critics of the church seem to think that it's already been settled.

Ironhold said:

I step away for a little while and people take shots at me. Yeesh.

That being said -

Deseret News on the DNA testing of Joseph Smith's alleged offspring. As of 2007, when the article was written, there was no evidence to indicate that any woman other than Emma bore Joseph any children. Most of the supposed male offspring - including Fanny Alger's child - were ruled out, and the available tests were unreliable when it came to determining parentage for women. (Before anyone says anything, it was Wikipedia that gave me the link.)

Then there's the dispute over how many of his supposed wives were simply sealed and how many were actually taken as wives in the proper sense.

This is actually a somewhat murky historical issue, but far too many critics of the church seem to think that it's already been settled.

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First of all, you personally are not the issue here, it's your "prophet, seer, and revelator," Joseph Smith, so please don't feel shot at.

Second, it is foolhardy to try to defend Joseph Smith's polygamous record, because it's out there for the whole wide world to see on the world-wide web, including on church websites. I used to have a link to an LDS genealogical site that listed the women to whom he was sealed, but guess what? It's suddenly no longer available; someone, somewhere made sure that the link no longer works to people who don't have the proper passwords/IDs, etc., so I can no longer post it. But no matter - you know it's there as well as I do, and so does everyone else. How many children he sired? That would only matter to the Smith family, really (for whom I feel infinite embarrassment). The real point is that he was not the honorable, God-inspired man he held himself out to be, and that he USED/ABUSED good, innocent people to accomplish his own...ahem, selfish purposes, and that about sums it up. There is NO denying that - not by you, not by anyone else, because there is too much well-documented evidence.

Third, as far as Wikipedia's dependability as a source is concerned, "murky" doesn't quite cut it. As an editor, you should (and do) know that.

WHY would you continue to defend this utterly INdefensible person? You might think about that long and hard...

Moodshadow said:

I used to have a link to an LDS genealogical site that listed the women to whom he was sealed, but guess what? It's suddenly no longer available; someone, somewhere made sure that the link no longer works to people who don't have the proper passwords/IDs, etc., so I can no longer post it.

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You can leave the paranoia behind.

A few years ago, the church discovered a number of irregularities going on with the system.

Vicarious baptisms done for people whose living kin had not given permission.

Files being accessed by people who were legitimately unauthorized.

Et cetra.

In an effort to deal with everything, the church tightened the standards and safety protocols significantly. This included implementing a new log-in / password system, both to protect the integrity of the data and to make sure that people were only getting the genealogical info for their own families unless they had permission to be looking elsewhere.

In other words, the increased protocols have nothing to do with "keeping critics out"* and everything to do with "data security" and "ensuring that protocols are being followed.

The real point is that he was not the honorable, God-inspired man he held himself out to be

Moses was guilty of manslaughter (if not murder), David was a mercenary, Simon Zealotes is suspected of having been a religious terrorist, and Saul / Paul was an accessory to murder.

Yet God worked through them anyway, didn't he?

Whatever flaws JS might have had (this is something that is still being hammered out by scholars and biographers), if you believe in the Bible then you can't entirely rule him out.

Third, as far as Wikipedia's dependability as a source is concerned, "murky" doesn't quite cut it. As an editor, you should (and do) know that.

I made that statement in order to show people that I wasn't simply cherry-picking sources like so many critics of the church are wont to do.

People might bash Wikipedia for unreliability, but your better Wiki articles will usually have a list of citations that people can go through in order to conduct independent research.

WHY would you continue to defend this utterly INdefensible person? You might think about that long and hard...[/quote]

If you had any idea as to how poorly I - and so many others around me - have been treated by your "good Christian" fellows, you wouldn't be asking that question.

JS, as flawed as he is, still has more of the light of God in him than a lot of the ministers I've butted heads with over the years.



*Some of the issues with the vicarious baptisms were brought up by a critic of the church who it is now suspected conspired with individuals at the Simon Wiesenthal Center to pick a fight with the church as part of an effort to force concessions.

This woman screamed bloody murder when she found out that the church implemented the password requirement during the clean-up process, as she alleged that the church was trying to keep her out.

When her screams went unanswered, the woman responded by committing identity fraud. She lurked about at a church genealogy center until she found someone who forgot to log out and used that person's log-in credentials to begin accessing the church's archives again.

Seriously - what is it with critics of the church going out and breaking the law?

Ironhold, didn't you know it's Christlike to put down others? *sarcasm*

I agree. I've come across numerous "Christians" on the mission who acted like anything but a Christian. We were approaching a door and some lady, she didn't even live there, came up to us and started running her mouth about how she's a Christian, we're not, if we didn't leave she'd call the cops, she hated Mormonism, etc. Yes, very Christlike. By the way, we just kept on tracting on the street despite the woman's empty threat of calling the cops. She couldn't tell us to leave the property we were talking with her at because it wasn't her house. It was just in her neighborhood.

We had one evangelical who was as evangelical as you could get. He hated it when he was proven wrong and decided to take the personal route by calling us names.

We talked with one lady at the door who's husband was a baptist minister. She tried so hard to pretend she knew the Bible. We talked with a guy 2 houses from her and then kept going to the other houses. When we got to one house I looked back and saw the woman talking to the guy who was interested. I could hear the words she was filling his ears with. I guess these "Christians" are taught in church that it's fine to gossip and give false information about people.

We were talking with one Christian woman who appeared to be interested on the outside. This Christian woman was living with another man who wasn't her husband. She'd reschedule appointments and we'd go back to more rescheduling. Her boyfriend answered the last time, also a "kind Christian", and nicely *sarcasm* told us to leave and never come back. He said so with a few words I'm fairly certain the Lord wouldn't approve of.

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Moodshadow said:

Second, it is foolhardy to try to defend Joseph Smith's polygamous record, because it's out there for the whole wide world to see on the world-wide web, including on church websites. I used to have a link to an LDS genealogical site that listed the women to whom he was sealed, but guess what? It's suddenly no longer available; someone, somewhere made sure that the link no longer works to people who don't have the proper passwords/IDs, etc., so I can no longer post it.

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You have to have an active LDS Account with temple records visible to see such things. I still do, but I can't seem to find Joseph Smith in the records. Maybe I'm tired and doing something wrong.

LegacyJB said:

Yes Ironhold, it's perfectly fine for "good Christians" to do nothing but badmouth and talk down to Mormons just for being Mormons. That's what makes them Christians. That's orthodoxy. They make themselves look good to their fellow "orthodox" Christians by joining the crowd. Heaven forbid they should act in a loving and kind way.

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Ah, you mean like the "personal opinions" of your prophets and apostles when speaking about blacks, or the abominable Catholic Church? Yeah...

LegacyJB said:

Yes Ironhold, it's perfectly fine for "good Christians" to do nothing but badmouth and talk down to Mormons just for being Mormons. That's what makes them Christians. That's orthodoxy. They make themselves look good to their fellow "orthodox" Christians by joining the crowd. Heaven forbid they should act in a loving and kind way.

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That's what makes them Christians? Really? Using that logic, are the following comments what make their authors Mormons?

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, and seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. - Brigham Young, 2nd President of the church

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young

"...after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation a upon a the earth as well as God;.. " John Taylor, 3rd President of the church

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.

... and they have been 'despised among all people.' This doctrine did not originate with President Brigham Young but was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith ..." Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th president of the church

The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..." Bruce R. McConkie, Apostle

"At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse - as a punishment and as a sign to all others.

" If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse, There isn't any argument, therefore, as to intermarriage with the Negro, is there? "Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. Mark E. Petersen, Apostle

There are others I could cite, but this is disgusting enough and I'll stop; you get the point. So would you like to answer my question, above, or will you choose to ignore this one as you did the ones in the other thread that still remain unanswered?

There's something you're forgetting:

Even if those statements were correctly attributed, they were long since disavowed.

In contrast, people are still talking smack to us simply for being Mormon and we're still receiving threats of violence.