Was Judas saved ?

cygnusx1 said:

I think Chet passed away , Jacks still alive though :


Ramblin' Jack's first Johnny Cash Show appearance - YouTube

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Thank you! He even wears glasses for spiritual sight like me.

cygnusx1 said:

Salvation is by grace not some condition .....

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Feel free to tell that to Paul. Your opinion is lacking in Biblical facts.

Eph 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Now see what else Paul added:

v.8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Please explain what "saved through faith" means.

Or Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he [UMUST DO[/U] to be saved:

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Please explain HOW believing isn't a condition.

shturt678s said:

Now there follow two brief hortations, one negative and positive, the other positive (v.8), both are supported by instruction.

V.6, "Accordingly, then, let us not be sleeping like the ret, but let us be watching and be sober!" More my paygrade: "sons of light, sons of day cannot be sleeping "like the rest" who belong to night and darkness of course.

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I don't follow this. If "sons of the light/day cannot be sleeping", then why did Paul tell them, "let us NOT be sleeping". That would be a waste of words, if the sons cannot sleep "like the rest". Of course they can. Paul even compared the saved Corinthians of acting fleshly (carnal) like "mere men" in 1 Cor 3:3.

And Paul admonished the Ephesian believers to "no longer" (quit doing it!) live like the Gentiles (unbelievers), in Eph 4:17.

The deduction is simplicity here itself. To be sleeping is to lie secure in night and darkness so that no faculty is aroused or awake to be on guard, so that no light of the Word opens our eyes. Note v.3: "Peace and security!"

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To be sleeping is to be compared to what unbelievers do.

Be awake, aroused by the light of the Word, by the impending day of the Lord, and in addittion to this sober, the opposite of drunken drowsiness and sleep (v.7) which dull the senses. Christians must be warned in order not to drop back into their former state.

V7, "For those sleeping sleep at night, and those drunken are drunken at night." Sleep and a drunken condition belong to the time of night of course. Sense it's here combined with sleeping, which denotes complete spiritual insensibility, being drunken adds heavily involvement of vice which intensifies this insensibility, ie, spiritual night.

V.8, "But let us, because we belong to day time, continue to be sober, as having put on the breastplate of faith and agape and and helmet hope of salvation. The fact that v.7 has a spiritual content is seen when "of day" is now opposed to "at night," and being sober to being drunk.

Getting too long, ie, will continue in private messaging - thought would be shorter.

Old humble pie Jack [/QUOTE]
Really looking forward to your understanding of v.10, the clincher!

FreeGrace2 said:

I don't follow this. If "sons of the light/day cannot be sleeping", then why did Paul tell them, "let us NOT be sleeping". That would be a waste of words, if the sons cannot sleep "like the rest". Of course they can. Paul even compared the saved Corinthians of acting fleshly (carnal) like "mere men" in 1 Cor 3:3.

And Paul admonished the Ephesian believers to "no longer" (quit doing it!) live like the Gentiles (unbelievers), in Eph 4:17.


To be sleeping is to be compared to what unbelievers do.

Be awake, aroused by the light of the Word, by the impending day of the Lord, and in addittion to this sober, the opposite of drunken drowsiness and sleep (v.7) which dull the senses. Christians must be warned in order not to drop back into their former state.

V7, "For those sleeping sleep at night, and those drunken are drunken at night." Sleep and a drunken condition belong to the time of night of course. Sense it's here combined with sleeping, which denotes complete spiritual insensibility, being drunken adds heavily involvement of vice which intensifies this insensibility, ie, spiritual night.

V.8, "But let us, because we belong to day time, continue to be sober, as having put on the breastplate of faith and agape and and helmet hope of salvation. The fact that v.7 has a spiritual content is seen when "of day" is now opposed to "at night," and being sober to being drunk.

Getting too long, ie, will continue in private messaging - thought would be shorter.

Old humble pie Jack

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Really looking forward to your understanding of v.10, the clincher![/QUOTE]

cygnusx1 said:

Saved by Grace or saved by faith ,, it's both .
Not of yourselves , ie the faith and grace do not originate from you .... Condition?

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This is soooo confused.

Saved by Grace , it's not an exam

Your version of soteriology is self contradictory :

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Yet, no explanation of how so. Why is that?

You start in the flesh and end in the spirit

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Exactly. Everyone starts in the flesh. Duh.
And all who believe end in the Spirit.

Tell me what CONDITION is necessary to remain saved ?

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God's promise. What else could there be?

cygnusx1 said:

Faith is merely the instrument of God , He chose to save us through faith.

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No, and yes. Faith comes from the heart (of man). Rom 10:10.

And yes, God chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

It is not the condition for salvation because condition indicates debt , a trade of some worth for some object , e.g. "here's my faith now I am saved and can avoid hell" .

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This claim doesn't establish truth, and it false anyway. There is no debt created in God's condition for salvation. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

God is not indebted to anyone , He is absolutely free to have mercy upon whomever He wills , a doctrine which is denied by Conditionialists.

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Did you know that God is obligated (indebted) to Himself? How so, one might ask. By making a promise, He HAS obligated Himself to what He has promised.

What does He promise? That whosoever believes in Christ, will NOT perish but HAVE eternal life. So, He HAS to save those who believe, because He promises to.

My faith in Christ doesn't obligate God. His promise to save me obligates Himself.

Is any of this refutable from Scripture? I notice that post of your posts are lacking in verses. Are there any verses that back up what you claim?

cygnusx1 said:

Saved by Grace or saved by faith ,, it's both .
Not of yourselves , ie the faith and grace do not originate from you .... Condition?

Saved by Grace , it's not an exam

Your version of soteriology is self contradictory :

You start in the flesh and end in the spirit



How so ?

Tell me what CONDITION is necessary to remain saved ?

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Unconvoluted: God's means of grace are the way or ways that God produces faith, ie, not convertable.

Flattening the Bell Curve, saved by faith effected through contrition produced by the realized law.

Old contrite Jack

FreeGrace2 said:

No, and yes. Faith comes from the heart (of man). Rom 10:10.

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Faith in the heart comes from the Word of the gospel and always has a confession from the mouth, ie, no refute, only clarifying where my main point faith comes from outside ourselves of course. :o btw your using of passages.

And yes, God chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21


This claim doesn't establish truth, and it false anyway. There is no debt created in God's condition for salvation. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.


Did you know that God is obligated (indebted) to Himself? How so, one might ask. By making a promise, He HAS obligated Himself to what He has promised.

What does He promise? That whosoever believes in Christ, will NOT perish but HAVE eternal life. So, He HAS to save those who believe, because He promises to.

My faith in Christ doesn't obligate God. His promise to save me obligates Himself.

Is any of this refutable from Scripture? I notice that post of your posts are lacking in verses. Are there any verses that back up what you claim?

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Old Jack

cygnusx1 said:

Contradictions abound !

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More empty claims. Where is the evidence of any contradiction?

You say "my faith in Christ doesn't obligate God " but His promise "obligates Himself" to who if not the one who has faith ?

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To Himself, as I already explained in detail.

Here it is again: When God makes a promise, He obligates HIMSELF.

Confusion!

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Apparently you are.

Btw , in your opinion is Repentance a condition of salvation ?

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Depends how you mean it. It can be taken in two ways. Please advise re: how you are using the word. Thanks.

shturt678s said:

Faith in the heart comes from the Word of the gospel and always has a confession from the mouth, ie, no refute, only clarifying where my main point faith comes from outside ourselves of course. :o btw your using of passages.

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Yes, I suppose one can use the verses how they want. But I don't see anything about faith coming from outside a man.

cygnusx1 said:

Was Judas saved ?

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yes, He has been saved, because Judas was one of the twelve closest disciples of the Lord, and unfortunately the devil succeeded to use the body of Jesus for a moment so that say to Judas: "that thou doest, do quickly."(John 13:27), and thus Jesus did not manage to stop Judas before he succeeds to disclose Him to the judaic clerics in order to be captured and judged, that is why Jesus was as compelled to go to the garden over the brook cedron so that wait the "lost sheep" to come in order to back it in the "fold", but unfortunately when Judas came, there were men with him who captured Jesus, however the Lord succeeded to frustrate the influence of the devil in him by saying: "betrayest thou the Good Shepherd with a kiss?"(Luke 22:48), because exactly thus Jesus made so that Judas stop acting unrighteously, but unfortunately when he understood later that Jesus was sentenced to death by crucifixion, he committed suicide, because he could not bear the fact that he betrayed the Good Shepherd Who risked and gave His Life for the lost sheep, but after all Judas has been saved albeit passing through physical death - his soul has been carried in the paradise, otherwise the whole universe could say that the Good Shepherd did not save the lost sheep moreover one of His closest disciples, (and) then Judas actually suffered from kleptomania, because he was unfortunately possessed by a devilish spirit of kleptomania from before, for see how he went to gain more money for as much as he had the bag full of money(John 12:4-6), that is why Jesus' disciples thought that Jesus sent Judas to buy something with the money at the last supper(John 13:28-29), (and) then Jesus said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you"(John 15:16), which shows that He had a great responsibility to His disciples to take care of them even to the bitter end in case of need

Acts 1:16-18 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled(viz. unfortunately in its devil's variant because of the then dominance of the system of (the) spiritual iniquity), which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity(i.e. now he is saved in the paradise despite his iniquity which he did);"

Blessings

cygnusx1 said:

Your not making any sense , obligated to do what ?

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Seriously???!! Obligated to KEEP HIS PROMISE. What else? Although, if one doesn't think that God is obligated to keep His promise, one will have no clue what I'm talking about.

Also , repentance shouldn't need explaining to you , unless you are attempting to divert from the question.

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OK, sorry, I thought the 2 meanings were common knowledge by believers. Since you are asking, here they are:
1. turning from sin to God.
2. changing one's mind about their own condition, which is unsaved, and their mind about Christ as Savior.

Is turning from sin a condition of salvation ?

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After I receive the definition that you are meaning. btw, the 2 meanings are NOT the same thing.

Yes or no .

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Right.

cygnusx1 said:

I agree , saving faith no more originates in the heart of man than honey originates in my stomach after I have eaten it !

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FreeGrace2 said:

Seriously???!! Obligated to KEEP HIS PROMISE. What else? Although, if one doesn't think that God is obligated to keep His promise, one will have no clue what I'm talking about.

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Bank run

OK, sorry, I thought the 2 meanings were common knowledge by believers. Since you are asking, here they are:
1. turning from sin to God.
2. changing one's mind about their own condition, which is unsaved, and their mind about Christ as Savior.

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The old Mk.1:15b; Matt.3:2 routine

After I receive the definition that you are meaning. btw, the 2 meanings are NOT the same thing.


Right.

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Old Jack