Was Judas saved ?

[cygnusx1]

Seeing as there is an ongoing concern about the person Judas regarding his alleged salvation then I thought it best to open a new thread .

Was Judas saved ?

Is Judas now saved ?

Those who think so had better start by quoting scripture as the determining proof .

 

[AndOne]

I don't think he was. Wasn't he the "son of perdition?"

 

[Steeno7]

Seeing as there is an ongoing concern about the person Judas regarding his alleged salvation then I thought it best to open a new thread .

Was Judas saved ?

Is Judas now saved ?

Those who think so had better start by quoting scripture as the determining proof .

Was Judas made alive together with the risen, living Savior? I doubt it, but we simply do not know.

 

[sdowney717]

Was Judas made alive together with the risen, living Savior? I doubt it, but we simply do not know.

You can be sure Judas was not saved.
Jesus called Judas, a devil and the son of perdition (son of hell), which to me can mean only one thing, destination hell, not heaven.

Peter says this in acts about Judas.

Matthias Chosen

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;[d]
and,

‘Let[e] another take his office.’[f]

Now simply without any Holy Spirit inspiration would someone say this passage by David in the Psalms was about Judas?

Judas == desolation == emptied out == dis-graced == others took his place.
So Judas had a future destiny not the same as those who had a share in the ministry and that was determined ahead of time by God Himself.

Judas and Peter are like all men in that Satan takes Judas, Jesus does not pray for Judas.
Now WHY would Jesus not pray for Judas? Because Jesus does not pray for the world, Jesus only prays for those the Father has given to Him as believers. John 17
I do not consider Judas to have even believed Jesus was the Christ. Peter though when Jesus asks His disciples, who do men say that I am? Peter says Jesus is the Christ of God.
Then shockingly, Jesus tells Peter that flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, MY FATHER in heaven has revealed this to you. So another major distinction between Peter and Judas. Nowhere is it recorded that Judas ever confessed Jesus as the Christ.

Satan desires to sift Peter and speaks through Peter to Jesus. Jesus though tells Peter that He has prayed for Peter, and when Peter turns back to the Lord to strengthen his BROTHERS.
So Judas and Peter, the Lord Jesus does not consider brethren. Judas was a devil, Peter a child of God.

 

[Steeno7]

You can be sure Judas was not saved.
Jesus called Judas, a devil and the son of perdition (son of hell), which to me can mean only one thing, destination hell, not heaven.

Peter says this in acts about Judas.


Now simply without any Holy Spirit inspiration would someone say this passage by David in the Psalms was about Judas?

Judas == desolation == emptied out == dis-graced == others took his place.
So Judas had a future destiny not the same as those who had a share in the ministry and that was determined ahead of time by God Himself.

Judas and Peter are like all men in that Satan takes Judas, Jesus does not pray for Judas. Satan desires to sift Peter and speaks through Peter to Jesus. Jesus though tells Peter that He has prayed for Peter, and when Peter turns back to the Lord to strengthen his BROTHERS.
So Judas and Peter, the Lord Jesus does not consider brethren. Judas was a devil, Peter a child of God.

Jesus also said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan". When did Peter become a "child of God"?

 

[cygnusx1]

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled," John 17:12.

 

[Steeno7]

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled," John 17:12.

Did anyone have salvation prior to the cross?

 

[cygnusx1]

"Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean," John 13:10-11.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus also said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan". When did Peter become a "child of God"?

Consider that if even a true apostle could be deceived or taken under the influence of Satan, it is only temporary and designed for the glory of God. They would return to the Lord, and that is true about any one of God's children. Because Jesus will not loose a single one of those that the Father has gifted to Jesus.

Also the parable of the weeds and the wheat show how much care and concern God takes over the children.

I dont know when Peter did get saved exactly. When Jesus came to Peter, (Jesus goes after those who will be His), Peter told the Lord that he was a bad man and told Jesus to depart from him. But Jesus told Peter not to fear, Peter would become a fisher of men.

4 When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, “Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.”

5 But Simon answered and said to Him, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word I will let down the net.” 6 And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking. 7 So they signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”

9 For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish which they had taken; 10 and so also were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men.” 11 So when they had brought their boats to land, they forsook all and followed Him.

Thomas said he would not believe unless he put his fingers into the holes in Jesus's side. Thomas did not believe until he saw the risen Christ. Neither did Paul until Jesus revealed Himself.

 

[sdowney717]

Did anyone have salvation prior to the cross?

Absolutely they did. Although they were not yet made perfect.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows this. Paradise where Abraham and Lazarus and all the righteous saved dead, versus the evil wicked consigned to fiery torments. Jesus descended into hell and proclaimed to them the gospel, Then Jesus led captivity captive when He ascended, taking Paradise with Him into heaven, leaving behind that rich man and all those are still there now, in the fire of hell.

 

[Steeno7]

"Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean," John 13:10-11.

Clean but still dead.

 

[Steeno7]

Absolutely they did. Although they were not yet made perfect.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows this. Paradise where Abraham and Lazarus and all the righteous saved dead, versus the evil wicked consigned to fiery torments. Jesus descended into hell and proclaimed to them the gospel, Then Jesus led captivity captive when He ascended, taking Paradise with Him into heaven, leaving behind that rich man and all those are still there now, in the fire of hell.

Theirs was a prospective faith until the risen Savior. There is no salvation as a present reality absent the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

Theirs was a prospective faith until the risen Savior. There is no salvation as a present reality absent the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

Yes for today, paradise is not part of 'hell' anymore.
Paradise in hell was a pleasant place of good things.
For today, Hell is just a temporary abode for the dead, their spirits live on, eventually to be resurrected and be tossed bodily into the lake of fire which is the second death.

 

[Steeno7]

Yes for today, paradise is not part of 'hell' anymore.
Paradise in hell was a pleasant place of good things.
For today, Hell is just a temporary abode for the dead, their spirits live on, eventually to be resurrected and be tossed bodily into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Salvation is not just something to be had or experienced only in heaven 'someday'.

My point is that some have a tendency to project new covenant principles back onto those before the cross. Believing that the grace of God was receivable by faith so as to effect regeneration, salvation, righteousness and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When none of that was possible until after the cross.

 

[cygnusx1]

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place,"
Acts 1:24-25.

 

[janxharris]

You can be sure Judas was not saved.

You may well be right, but the consequence for Calvinism is that such a view proves that the atonement was for all men:

Luke 22:20-22
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!”

See this if interested (otherwise this thread will be derailed):
http://www.christianforums.com/t7802929-11/#post64988087

 

[shturt678s]

Judas was one of the "elect" - Jn.6:70; 17:12 thus he had faith for sure.

Old Jack

 

[cygnusx1]

Judas was one of the "elect" - Jn.6:70; 17:12 thus he had faith for sure.

Old Jack

Wrong premise will always result in a wrong conclusion , you assume election must either be soteriological or not at all.

 

[shturt678s]

Wrong premise will always result in a wrong conclusion , you assume election must either be soteriological or not at all.

You're correct! A wrong premise laid down by Calvin in Rom.8:28, "according to purpose" does lead to other wrong premises, ie, irresistible grace and uncoditional election thus from Calvin's view "election" not soteriological at all.

Old Jack

 

[cygnusx1]

You're correct! A wrong premise laid down by Calvin in Rom.8:28, "according to purpose" does lead to other wrong premises, ie, irresistible grace and uncoditional election thus from Calvin's view "election" not soteriological at all.

Old Jack

How many elections are in scripture ? Calvin knew why don't you ?