Was Judas saved ?

cygnusx1 said:

How many elections are in scripture ? Calvin knew why don't you ?

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This much I do know: Calvin knew of "2" elections where the Scriptures know of only "1" conditional "election" of all.

Old Jack

cygnusx1 said:

So what election is Romans 8 that always results in salvation ?

Conditional election based upon pre-knowledge is redundant , how so ?

Take away the act of electing , which by definition is discriminatory , and just rely upon pre-knowledge of those who will believe and be saved and what changes ? Nothing ! They are still going to be saved ?

Thus election is destroyed , it's become a forgery by the hands of many .

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Mr. Calvin at Rom.8:28 wrongly identified "purpose" and "election" as being "substantially" the same, and thinks of "election" as being the unconditional election of a certain number of persons for faith and for heaven.

This call is universal and identical for all men. In all without distinction its intent and purpose is faith (mediate result) and final glory (ultimate glory). :o

Old Jack

btw need a little more separation regarding "according to purpose" and "election" my friend.

cygnusx1 said:

that is because Calvin , unlike you , knows this call cannot be universal .... its the effective call!

google the golden chain of Romans 8 .... its not too difficult

The Golden Chain of Salvation

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Mr. Van Baren renders also in inferior rendering "predesinate....did predesinate" where "predestintation" is not even being brought forth. The main thought of this passage again God's provident care?

Old Jack,

Have to agree to disagree with his views of the passages referenced in his "Golden Chain of Salvation". Call universal in Rom.8:28 and btw why would there be "purpose" back of the call for the reprobate?

Wow! I'm the minority with most rendering "predestined" in Rom.8:28, 29, ie, are there not any other old timers here over 75 with old time religion? :o

"foreknew" he also "foreordained," ie, not "predestined"? Make a paradigm shift to Eph.1:11, "having been predestinated" then cannot be refuted nor corrected, however not at Rom.8:28, 29.

cygnusx1 said:

Seeing as there is an ongoing concern about the person Judas regarding his alleged salvation then I thought it best to open a new thread .
Was Judas saved ?
Is Judas now saved ?
Those who think so had better start by quoting scripture as the determining proof .

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No.

Luke 17:12
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

That would be Judas.

stan1953 said:

No.

Luke 17:12
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

That would be Judas.

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Yes.

Jn.6:70, "Did not I elect you the Twelve for myself".

That would be Judas,

Old Jack that appreciates you good folks

shturt678s said:

Yes.

Jn.6:70, "Did not I elect you the Twelve for myself".

That would be Judas,

Old Jack that appreciates you good folks

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Judas was the only one that God gave Jesus that Jesus ever lost and for good reason, to fulfill the words of the Lord that He had spoken concerning the same.
God watches over His word to perform it.
So we can be sure and certain of His trustworthiness.

A very good reason it is, that we can be certain then of His many great and precious promises towards His elect whom He chose.

7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt

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The same today, God chose us because of HIS GREAT LOVE towards us. That is why He made us alive who were dead. God loved us first, and not because of any wonderful characteristics about us.

AND because He swore an oath ( a promise), that Abraham would have children, children like Isaac according to HIS promise, whom we are. That is those who believe in His Son. And we believe because God gave us to Jesus as believers.

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

shturt678s said:

Yes.
Jn.6:70, "Did not I elect you the Twelve for myself".
That would be Judas,
Old Jack that appreciates you good folks

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It actually reads; Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas may have been chosen by Jesus but he ended up dying as an unbeliever and cursed.

stan1953 said:

It actually reads; Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas may have been chosen by Jesus but he ended up dying as an unbeliever and cursed.

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He was chosen and saved, however died as an unbeliever and cursed.

Thank you,

Old Jack

When he lost his saving "faith," Scriptures don't tell us.

shturt678s said:

He was chosen and saved, however died as an unbeliever and cursed.
Thank you,
Old Jack
When he lost his saving "faith," Scriptures don't tell us.

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Scriptures DON'T tell us he was saved, so how do you support this assertion?
Thanks.

sdowney717 said:

Judas was the only one that God gave Jesus that Jesus ever lost and for good reason, to fulfill the words of the Lord that He had spoken concerning the same.
God watches over His word to perform it.
So we can be sure and certain of His trustworthiness.

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Only a head's up, ie, Judas was never given to Jesus by the Father.

A very good reason it is, that we can be certain then of His many great and precious promises towards His elect whom He chose.

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There's no choseing except the one for salvation in connection with sanctification and faith.

The same today, God chose us because of HIS GREAT LOVE towards us. That is why He made us alive who were dead. God loved us first, and not because of any wonderful characteristics about us.

AND because He swore an oath ( a promise), that Abraham would have children, children like Isaac according to HIS promise, whom we are. That is those who believe in His Son. And we believe because God gave us to Jesus as believers.

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

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Old Jack

stan1953 said:

Scriptures DON'T tell us he was saved, so how do you support this assertion?
Thanks.

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Maybe you're correct hence let's look and see if one of the elected apostles wasn't saved? Jn.6:70, "Did not I elect you the Twelve for myself? and of you one is a devil. The thought with sufficient clearness, namely to be my followers in a special sense, to be trained a my apostels for the great future work, ie, looks like not only saved but an apostle?

Those other disciples who did not believe in Jesus left Him, and nowhere are such men called devils; but Judas remians, remains even as one of the Twelve, remains and consents to Peter's confession, not with ordinary hypocrisy, but with lying deceit such as Jesus predicates of the very devil himself in Jn.8:44.

So early Judas had completely broken with Jesus. "Is a devil" means now, at this time when Jesus says so, not that he already was a devil when Jesus chose him. When Judas lost his faith we are not told?

Old Jack

shturt678s said:

Yes.

Jn.6:70, "Did not I elect you the Twelve for myself".

That would be Judas,

Old Jack that appreciates you good folks

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Remember that none of the 3 Greek words rendered "elect/election" whether noun, verb or adjective ever mean being chosen for salvation.

There are at least 6 categories of election in Scripture:
Categories of Divine Election
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

Here are the 3 Greek words and their occurrences in the NT:

There are 3 Greek words associated with divine election:
eklegomai, a verb occurring 21 times
Mk 13:20 Lk 6:13 Luke 10:42 Luke 14:7 Jn 6:70 John 13:18 John 15:16 Acts 1:2 Acts 1:24
Acts 6:5 Acts 13:17 Acts 15:7 Acts 15:22 Acts 15:25 1 Cor 1:27-28 Eph 1:4 James 2:5

eklektos, an adjective occurring 23 times
Mark 13:20 Matt 20:16 Matt 24:22 Matt 24:24 Matt 24:31 Mark 13:22 Mark 13:27 Luke 18:7 Rom 8:33 Rom 16:13 Col 3:12 1 Tim 5:21 2 Tim 2:10-11 Titus 1:1 1 Peter 1:1 1 Peter 2:6 1 Peter 2:9 2 John 1 2 John 13 Rev 17:14

ekloge, a noun, meaning “a choice”, occurring 7 times
Acts 9:15 Rom 9:11 Rom 11:5 Rom 11:7 Rom 11:28 2 Peter 1:10

It is always a mistake to assume that when one reads "chosen/elect" in Scripture is means chosen for salvation. Just review the 6 categories. Does it make any sense to assume that Christ was chosen for salvation? Or the entire nation of Israel? Or angels?

shturt678s said:

He was chosen and saved, however died as an unbeliever and cursed.

Thank you,

Old Jack

When he lost his saving "faith," Scriptures don't tell us.

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Is there a verse that unambiguously informs us that if a believer stops believing, they stop being saved?

cygnusx1 said:

that is because Calvin , unlike you , knows this call cannot be universal .... its the effective call!

google the golden chain of Romans 8 .... its not too difficult

The Golden Chain of Salvation

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I know some ex-miners from Alaska that can simply explain the test for fool's gold, ie, Googled up prca.org a few days back and think you again.

Old Jack

FreeGrace2 said:

Is there a verse that unambiguously informs us that if a believer stops believing, they stop being saved?

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Using interpretive Bible translations, all ambiguous, ie, one leans on OSAS or no-OSAS depending on which denomination one is steeped in, eg, I'm of the Lutheran camp thus steeped in Lutheranism hence no OSAS.

However to be less ambiguous then one needs their Lexicon, Concordance, Interlinear, and little very basic ancient Greek/Hebrew then as individuals interpret from the ancient languages forward to the Engish instead of backwards like most of our so called scholars and Christian think-tanker do today throwing in a little Greek to sweeten the pot, ie, no flaming as speaking of their false interpretations, and not them as persons. :o

English translations support both diverse views.

Old small potatoes Jack

FreeGrace2 said:

Remember that none of the 3 Greek words rendered "elect/election" whether noun, verb or adjective ever mean being chosen for salvation.

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Text without Context is Pretext as I'm sure you understand. Textually none of the 3 Greek words rendered "elect/election" whether noun, verb or adjective ever mean being chosen for salvation I will have to look at again, however even if this premise is valid, and it may be, then first and foremost Contextually is this valid, and absolutely not, eg, Judas prime example.

Regarding "chosen for salvation," I've been parroting out for decades: That God chose one from the beginning unto salvation in connection with sanctification of spirit and faith in truth.

There are at least 6 categories of election in Scripture:
Categories of Divine Election
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

Here are the 3 Greek words and their occurrences in the NT:

There are 3 Greek words associated with divine election:
eklegomai, a verb occurring 21 times
Mk 13:20 Lk 6:13 Luke 10:42 Luke 14:7 Jn 6:70 John 13:18 John 15:16 Acts 1:2 Acts 1:24
Acts 6:5 Acts 13:17 Acts 15:7 Acts 15:22 Acts 15:25 1 Cor 1:27-28 Eph 1:4 James 2:5

eklektos, an adjective occurring 23 times
Mark 13:20 Matt 20:16 Matt 24:22 Matt 24:24 Matt 24:31 Mark 13:22 Mark 13:27 Luke 18:7 Rom 8:33 Rom 16:13 Col 3:12 1 Tim 5:21 2 Tim 2:10-11 Titus 1:1 1 Peter 1:1 1 Peter 2:6 1 Peter 2:9 2 John 1 2 John 13 Rev 17:14

ekloge, a noun, meaning “a choice”, occurring 7 times
Acts 9:15 Rom 9:11 Rom 11:5 Rom 11:7 Rom 11:28 2 Peter 1:10

It is always a mistake to assume that when one reads "chosen/elect" in Scripture is means chosen for salvation. Just review the 6 categories. Does it make any sense to assume that Christ was chosen for salvation? Or the entire nation of Israel? Or angels?

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One call via two aspects: What I've been parroting out for over two decades regarding the N.T. "elect": Always in the Letters (Epistles) this calling is efficacious, successful, having produced acceptance "inwardly," ie, in the Gospels, the call only in the Kingdom "outwardly" thus afte the 1st century all to measure where they are at regarding the Kingdom of God, in the Gospel's sense, ie, not in the Letter's sense as pervasively wrongfully done today. :o

Old Jack

shturt678s said:

Using interpretive Bible translations, all ambiguous, ie, one leans on OSAS or no-OSAS depending on which denomination one is steeped in, eg, I'm of the Lutheran camp thus steeped in Lutheranism hence no OSAS.

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I'm not steeped in any camp.

However to be less ambiguous then one needs their Lexicon, Concordance, Interlinear, and little very basic ancient Greek/Hebrew then as individuals interpret from the ancient languages forward to the Engish instead of backwards like most of our so called scholars and Christian think-tanker do today throwing in a little Greek to sweeten the pot, ie, no flaming as speaking of their false interpretations, and not them as persons. :o

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I fully agree with this approach. I have 2 Greek grammars to help out with the "little very basic ancient Greek" thing. "Greek for the Rest of Us", by Mounce, and "Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics" by Wallace. They have been very helpful.

English translations support both diverse views.

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What I look for are verses that are unambiguous. I have never found any verse that contradicts another verse when they are unambiguous.

When I consider John 10:28-29 with Rom 8:38, I cannot understand why anyone would think that one's salvation can be lost/refunded/returned/rejected/forfeited/etc. To me, these verses are unambiguous.

For me to accept that salvation can be lost, there would need to be a verse that very clearly states unambiguously that salvation can be lost. I don't demand these specific words, but the wording must be specific. I believe that both Jn 10:28-29 and Rom 8:38 are very specific and clear.

shturt678s said:

Text without Context is Pretext as I'm sure you understand. Textually none of the 3 Greek words rendered "elect/election" whether noun, verb or adjective ever mean being chosen for salvation I will have to look at again, however even if this premise is valid, and it may be, then first and foremost Contextually is this valid, and absolutely not, eg, Judas prime example.

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Did you look over the list of the 6 categories of election that I provided? The 3 Greek words are used for those 6 categories. None of the categories were chosen or elected for salvation. They were chosen for "special privilege and service" including that old devil, Judas.

Regarding "chosen for salvation," I've been parroting out for decades: That God chose one from the beginning unto salvation in connection with sanctification of spirit and faith in truth.

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2 Thess 2:13 does not have any of the 3 words for election. The word for "chosen" there is 'haireomai'. Like we choose our socks in the morning.

But we elect our government officials. But difference.

One call via two aspects: What I've been parroting out for over two decades regarding the N.T. "elect": Always in the Letters (Epistles) this calling is efficacious, successful, having produced acceptance "inwardly," ie, in the Gospels, the call only in the Kingdom "outwardly" thus afte the 1st century all to measure where they are at regarding the Kingdom of God, in the Gospel's sense, ie, not in the Letter's sense as pervasively wrongfully done today. :o

Old Jack

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