Agreed, well said, we are looking to follow the faith of Messiah that was still part of Judaism, not what we know today as Christianity.
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Gentiles in the Messianic Movement Article
- Thread starter Messianic Jewboy
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Agreed, well said, we are looking to follow the faith of Messiah that was still part of Judaism, not what we know today as Christianity.
Shimshon
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Again with the name calling? Not really Jews, just Hebrew Christians? Yes, I see you express this thought constantly here. As wrong as it is. If you truly want to seek unity through love, stop 'seeing the problem' with others and start appreciating their position instead of constantly 'thinking (Jews) they are just Christians. Way to uplift the community :o
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Shimshon
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Which part of Judaism? It's made quite clear here of late that the part of Judaism that defined itself is no longer to be considered as from God. So which part of Judaism are you gentiles seeking to follow? How can you say you follow 'Judaism' while rejecting the historical body of Jews? Gentile Judaism? Meant to correct thousands of years of Jewish and Christian 'err'? You can't be part of something you openly reject. It's hypocracy and lunacy.
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Agree seems like people still want to find negatives when there is a positive with someone's Messianic Jewish experience.
And it's really not relevant in my opinion the reason for the Jews keeping kosher in the said congregation to begin with.
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- Jan 25, 2009
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I liked this point that was made. We are both part of the 'common'weath. We have not become each other.
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Shimshon
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Remember James Pyle's quote of Rabbi Freeman? I loved it. Find that mitzvah that a Jew(or gentile) has an affinity for and help him accomplish it. DON'T ARGUE!! Words of wisdom...
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Sadly,
Whenever there is an assumption that to be Kosher is to be opposite of being a Christian (or assuming no one within Christendom believes Torah is valid because others don't feel bound nor obligated to specifically keep the Food Laws of Deuteronomy 14),then one will always look for negatives where there are none. As it is, neither Christ nor the Apostles ever had such a mindset even as they kept/advocated Torah and Kosher - and as it is, they also didn't have a false mindset that being Christian was about not keeping Kosher....in regards to how many say "Well, we're looking for something that's a part of Judaism and not Christianity."
For historical reference, people need to remember how those in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (be it regular Ethiopians or Ethiopian Jews) are a long-standing part of Christendom and yet they advocate Kosher as do many others - as they are quite Jewish in their lifestyle as are other branches of Christianity (paticularly in many branches of Middle-Eastern/Eastern Christianity)..and have been long before anything with the modern Messianic movement came into existence. They are very concerned about Kosher (as they don't eat pork, for example), they circumsize, often worship on Saturday (or both), follow OT laws on menstration and celebrate Festivals.....so clearly a Torah observant lifestyle possible within the realms of Orthodoxy. More was discussed in one of the earlier threads entitled Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy
Loving both the Messianic Jewish community and loving what has happened with the Jewish world in Ancient Christianity (as with other Messianics who have DUAL Identity like Daughter of Ararat), some things others may not agree with - but I know there are a lot of other Jewish believers who are definately of the mindset that there's more to Jewish expression than what's seen in much of what has developed today in Messianic Judaism currently.
And as it concerns the dismissal of other Jewish believers by claiming "Well...they're just Hebrew Christians", people really need to face facts when it comes to realizing that it's false to say that Messianics are not the same as Christians - be it as an absolute or a rule. And it'd be wrong to use something as precious as God's Torah to divide others/say that it divides Messianics from Christians and all other people in the Body of Messiah. Yeshua never advocated that - nor did early Jewish believers, proud to be known as Disciples..or "Followers of the Way" AND as Christians (Acts 11 - with Paul/Barnabas's churches and I Peter 4 where it was seen as a badge of honor for Jews/Gentiles to be called Christians).
Even in saying "Well, Christians don't claim Judaism in their title" - the bottom line is that NEITHER DID BELIEVERS in the 1st century church/time of the apostles. It was not on their mind (even though the title could describe them in hindsight) - nor was it an issue for them to be called Christian...and the entire issue of saying "Well, Christianity comes from the Greek understanding" is inaccurate in light of how many Jewish believers in the time of Christ already interacted with the Greek world as did those in the time of the Maccabean revolt (Hellenism) - using it to their advantage when they could while walking away from it if it differed. And being Christian was not the opposite of being Jewish as the Apostles/early believers saw it.
There are many excellent works on the issue - one of them being Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... by Ray Pritz .....a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance. Additionally, another excellent resource is Jewish Christianity in apostolic times: A native Jewish Church andFather Bernstein Finds the Jews | The Groom's Family - as it concerns Jewish believers in the Church showing their heritage and what it means to live Messianic Jewish within Christendom - and often feel like they live in dual worlds....
Messianic Judaism is Jewish Chrisitianity (as the early body of believers in Acts - sprung from the Judaism of its day - was a Jewish Christian body)..and Messianic Jews are simply Jews - living Jewish in lifestyle - who love the Messiah Yeshua.
Whether they identify as Messianic Jews or as Hebrew Christians or other terms, that is what they are in the simplest level. As there have always been various forms of Judaism, there are various forms of Messianic Jews.So if we say we value the Jewish community, we REALLY need to stop blasting each and every Jewish community that looks different than us - just as Yemen Jews could look at American Ashkenazi Jews and say "You're not Kosher" because they don't eat Locust and that'd be wrong, the same thing applies whenever people try claiming of other Messianic Jewish communities "They don't honor or love Yeshua because they keep Kosher not thinking they HAVE to in order to be acceptable before the Lord"
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Understandably so. Is your understanding that Yeshua, G-d, is the Maker of all, and for all? Or is your view that G-d is for Judaism only and that all others should serve Judaism?
I sense the discourse. My reply is obviously a broken one, though not without the reply of your own.
Are you suggesting that today's Christian aren't following Messiah?
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Very good quote to remember - and thankful for what Brother Pyles has noted on the matter...
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I never said such a thing... and I don't know of any post that did claim such, however I don't read every post, so maybe I missed it.
I am part of my local Jewish community and Christian community, along with a One Law congregation near by, a Hebrew roots near by, and a MJAA associated congregation not far away either, and I have great friends among all these places, I do not hate or reject any of them as you suggest. In our local community, we have even had joint cooperation on different events, with both the local Chabad and Reform, I am friends with two Pastors in my town, who have allowed me to teach in their congregations more than once. You are simply making nonsense accusations, which are simply appealing to emotions, with nothing to back them up.
As for Judaism, we are seeking to follow the sect of Judaism that the Apostles and Yeshua adhered to, to the best of our ability and knowledge.
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Hi,
Do you think Christianity is for all? The reality is, Judaism is the faith Yeshua represented and in doing so, the message of salvation is from Judaism and all were welcome. The Apostles were considered a sect of Judaism, they did not create a new religion called Christianity... They brought gentiles into their existing religion (Judaism), and in doing so, angered much of their fellow Jews in their day.
I would never suggest such a thing... lets make a major note here, if it was not for Christianity, no no one today would know the Messiah. It is a honor that Christianity has in much persecution continued the message of the Messiah to the world, because Judaism was not going to. But Christianity's origin, its creation, was mainly formed out of anti-semitism, separating from their Jewish brethren, who brought them the message to begin with... a sad reality, which resulted in years of anti-semitism and persecution of the Jewish people, which is a disgrace.
Since we are placing honors, lets mention Judaism, who has through much persecution maintained the word of God, the Torah, maintained their identity and have not given up their calling, they continue to be a beacon of light, representing the God of Israel.
I believe God has used both of these religions to continue His plans, and that despite their errors, God is still with both of these religions.
What I believe we are seeing today, is a restoration, we are seeing Jews in Judaism coming to the Messiah, without leaving Judaism, which is fantastic, and we are seeing Christians (mainly gentiles), leaving anti-semitic doctrines behind, seeing the Torah as truly the Word of God, and embracing it with joy... I don't think this is happening by mistake, both held a piece of God's truth, and both are being restored to it as we speak, and it is growing like rapid fire, and I am cheering it on.
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Shimshon
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Thanks for the clarification, it helps. But, when you continually applaud those who do these things constantly here, it contaminates your witness. I'm not making nonsense accusations, I've been called racist, bigoted, and Christian most every time I enter here lately. It seems the new agenda, attack the Jews with a political correctness. THEN act as if your the one being attacked by it.
So, if your not a participant here that is doing these things, cool. Good for you! But from my experience you usually take their side and rail against Messianic 'Jews' as you just did to me (emphsis above). Becaused acting as if these things are made up is much more than ignorant in my opinion. It would mean you have not read anything but what you like, or you are playing coy and not being forthright and honest. Don't know which it is right now.
Funny that, you present your situation that resembles what every Messianic Jew here has echoed, yet you posit that it is we who are making things up. Can you not see your paradox?
IF you had the only intention of 'making nice' with all intended here you would not be using your "I make nice with all" as a contrast to my observations of seperatism and elitism, and flat out racism/bigotry that engulfs the forum of late.
me thinks you object to me mearly because of who I am. We have been calling for equity and fairness among Jews and Gentiles from the beginning. And continually have it turned around to claim the opposite. Again, can you not see the paradox?
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By your example, I'm supposed to consider others of God as not as worthy of God? Despite the fact that the Gospels say all of Gods own belong unto Him? I don't buy it.
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I think you might be misunderstanding some of these people, I don't think anyone here who is against your doctrines, hates you or is out to attack you, or Jews. People simply disagree, and guess what, you are in good company, I have been called similar for supporting One Law from Jews and Gentiles alike. People simply react based on their beliefs. But I don't see anyone here who is anti-semitic or attacking Jews. I see people attacking certain doctrines.
See this is another inaccuracy, I don't rally against Messianic Jews, I rally against certain doctrines that I believe are in error, despite who holds this doctrine, whether Gentile or Jew. You seem to make this personal, I am not making this personal, I don't know you personally...
Again, I don't know you, I don't object to you because of who you are... The debate is over certain doctrines and what should and should not be happening in the Messianic Movement, and in the process peoples feelings are getting hurt and people are turning around saying things they should not, on both sides, I try to stay out of these petty arguments and focus on doctrinal debate.
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I am not sure how you came to that conclusion based on what I said... I said all were welcome.
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God has already said as much. What, in your view, is the benefit of becoming a Judaist, for so called, "gentiles"?
God is God before time began. What does it profit one that is a "gentile" to follow Judaism?
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What do you think gentiles were doing when they were joining the faith of the Apostles? Do you think they were going to a Catholic Church or a Christian seminary? No, because Christianity as a religion did not exist yet, they were coming to the Synagogue and were learning the ways of the Jews, from where salvation comes.
What does it profit one that is a "gentile" to follow Christianity?
Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God, if you want to learn about God, you go to the Jews...
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Of course, however the knowledge and understanding of God, was entrusted to the Jewish people... even Jesus Himself, says salvation is of the Jews, not of the world or any other people, but the Jewish people. God chose Abraham and his descendants to carry out His promises, they do not exist outside of Israel. Israel is the vessel.
Let me ask you a question, does Christ exist outside of Christianity?
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