Judge Orders Pregnant Texas Woman Off Life Support

Glass*Soul

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SepiaAndDust

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And yet that decision was made for her by the State of Texas. And we heard about the condition of the fetus who suffered horribly due to the measures taken after oxygen-dep effected them.

It was actually made by the hospital. Even the normally insane Texas politicians were urging the hospital to just let that poor woman die.
 
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Habbit Animal

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It was actually made by the hospital. Even the normally insane Texas politicians were urging the hospital to just let that poor woman die.
Yes, but the hospital was using Texas State law as a vehicle to do this. And of course there's the profit in keeping her on life support.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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This article hit my news feed today:

Family of boy left in vegetative state after car crash gave him a full life for 31 years | News.com.au

31 years in a vegetative state. I know this boy wasn't dead - but he sure didn't have a quality of life.

Your quality of life is not someone else's quality of life.

Sometimes the selfishness people exhibit delivers the message they'd rather have someone present in their life than living a quality dignified life. It's fear of death I think that compels such measures.

Yes, let's kill people who can't move. How thoughtful of you.

You'd have them starve him to death? Exactly how were they supposed to let him die?

His family is amazing! That's love, right there.

I wish others could see that. This person was alive but he apparently doesn't fit others' definitions. It makes me sick, actually, that people actually talk about how this kid should've been dead. :o
 
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Dave Ellis

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This article hit my news feed today:

Family of boy left in vegetative state after car crash gave him a full life for 31 years | News.com.au

31 years in a vegetative state. I know this boy wasn't dead - but he sure didn't have a quality of life.


There's a big difference between vegetative state and brain dead.

In a vegetative state, the brain is still alive and working at a minimal level. It's unlikely to ever recover, but not dead.

Brain dead is just that, the brain itself is physically deceased, as is the body. If you pull any random body out of the morgue and hook it up to a life support machine, you can make it breathe, and it's heart beat again... but the body is still dead, and it's never coming back.

The case with the lady in Texas is the latter situation... she is a dead body that's been hooked up to a machine for weeks. It's absolutely grotesque.
 
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united4Peace

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You're right. A person doesn't belong to the state, but the responsibility to protect the innocent from harm does belong to the state.

If there hadn't been a baby involved, then I would have acknowledged the woman's right to die. But I don't believe she or the family had the right to condemn the baby.

The judge certainly didn't have the right to condemn the baby and the fact that he thinks he did should be extremely disturbing to the Left.

100 years ago...50 years ago...what would have happened? Really really think about this!!
A pregnant female...brain dead...so for another words... dead...what would have happened to the baby?? Would you have considered God a murderer as we didn't have the technology that we have today? Did God condemn all those baby's who died when their mothers died back then?
 
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united4Peace

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The woman is alive. If she were dead the baby would be dead. If stopping the life support to let the woman die is the goal of the judge then fine. But killing the woman and the baby who has never even seen the light of day is wrong. Letting someone die a natural death and killing someone is sometimes a fine line.

So then natural living is being hooked up to machines that breath for a person?
 
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Sayre

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There's a big difference between vegetative state and brain dead.

In a vegetative state, the brain is still alive and working at a minimal level. It's unlikely to ever recover, but not dead.

Brain dead is just that, the brain itself is physically deceased, as is the body. If you pull any random body out of the morgue and hook it up to a life support machine, you can make it breathe, and it's heart beat again... but the body is still dead, and it's never coming back.

The case with the lady in Texas is the latter situation... she is a dead body that's been hooked up to a machine for weeks. It's absolutely grotesque.

Yes, a distinction I pointed out already.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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100 years ago...50 years ago...what would have happened? Really really think about this!!
A pregnant female...brain dead...so for another words... dead...what would have happened to the baby?? Would you have considered God a murderer as we didn't have the technology that we have today? Did God condemn all those baby's who died when their mothers died back then?

This isn't 100 years ago or 50 years ago. We have technology that assists us better than it did 100 years or 50 years ago. So...basically you're making the argument that because the baby would've died 50 years ago, let's let it die now, too. Bad argument.

God doesn't condemn anyone, BTW.
 
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katautumn

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I'm of the opinion that if a woman is technically dead before the stage where the baby could survive outside the womb then the hospital should never make the call to keep her body artificially alive just to act as a host. For starters, when a woman's body isn't functioning normally, it is a detriment to the health of the unborn baby.

Second, nobody knows how long she was pretty much dead before she was resuscitated. My grandmother had a friend who lost oxygen for a minute and a half while giving birth and that baby was born with such significant problems she was nearly a vegetable her whole life. She passed away at the age of forty-two and by that time she needed oxygen and a feeding tube. She was never able to speak, she was blind, she couldn't even walk or use her hands to hold things. And that was after a minute and a half without the mother breathing, let alone being clinically dead.

Furthermore, this has put a tremendous financial burden on the husband. I'm assuming he's been saddled with this astronomical hospital bill to keep his wife on life support. And now he'll have to pay for a funeral. I'm just really disappointed in the pro-life response to this. I'm pro-life, even in cases of rape or birth defects, but this is one situation where the baby would not have lived and, if the baby had, there would be literally no quality of life. It's not like a situation where a child will have Down Syndrome or Cerebral Palsy. We're talking about a woman's body being kept alive to act as a host so the doctors could cut a baby from her womb that would likely live a mere seconds after the birth. It's like something from a horrible science fiction novel.

I've read comments on this news story and many pro-life people have said things like, "I hope they all [the wife, family, doctors, judges] burn in hell" and, "I hope her husband dies alone since he murdered his own baby". What a disconnect from reality.
 
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Habbit Animal

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Yes, let's kill people who can't move. How thoughtful of you.

You'd have them starve him to death? Exactly how were they supposed to let him die?
Give him a needle like you would your beloved suffering pet and let him find peace. Just as would happen ideally if someone who is terminal wanted peace rather than suffering and loss of dignity.

You're not even thoughtful in how you address people who offer an opinion you disagree with. And you think to condemn someone as being thoughtless when they think of mercy, compassion, and peace in letting a boy who is tissue sustained by artificial means and forced to exist rather than live a vibrant life go is worthy of ridicule?
Someone who believes true love would let this boy go home to God? Rather than live in a chronic persistent vegetative state while his poor body suffers the effects and his mind has no awareness of that nor life itself?

Do you know what a vegetative state is? What the patient endures?
Karen Ann Quinlan was one of the most well known persistent vegetative state patients in America. She spent nearly a decade in a hospital bed and died of pneumonia nearly 10 years after she collapsed from a drug and alcohol overdose that caused her to stop breathing for prolonged periods at least twice before paramedics arrived.

Quality of life isn't being flesh and bone with no consciousness whatever and machines doing the living for them. Pumping air, clearing bowels and bladder.
Quality of life is demonstrated by being a living active participant in the living of it. Rather than a body that is present in the flesh while the mind is completely dead.






I wish others could see that. This person was alive but he apparently doesn't fit others' definitions. It makes me sick, actually, that people actually talk about how this kid should've been dead. :o
What should make those who feel compassion for suffering sick is those who argue tissue has no right to mercy because a physical presence that isn't conscious nor physiologically functioning but is pumped up by machines is a sign of life!
Who cares that he's suffering while his body is destroyed for 30 years do to the extraordinary measures it takes to keep that what's trying to die away from that absolute.
Just as long as the shape of the son is in the room and able to be wheeled around that's all that matters. Keep him in the tomb that is his own body because we want him here! Even though he's not the illusion medical science provides is good enough. Because mercy and peace are wrong!When he died 30 years ago for all intents and purposes it's OK to keep what's left pumped and filled and evacuated by machines! When there is no consciousness there the shell is all that matters!



That is selfish. And that is sickening.
 
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DaisyDay

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Actually I heard a baby can live a few minutes in a dead person. So they need to take the baby out right away. So this woman died and they was brought back to life, but is still brain dead.
She was not brought back to life - she was still dead with mechanical heart, ventilation and nourishment.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Give him a needle like you would your beloved suffering pet and let him find peace. Just as would happen ideally if someone who is terminal wanted peace rather than suffering and loss of dignity.

And where do you draw the line? What if someone broke their leg but didn't want to deal with the pain?

You're not even thoughtful in how you address people who offer an opinion you disagree with. And you think to condemn someone as being thoughtless when they think of mercy, compassion, and peace in letting a boy who is tissue sustained by artificial means and forced to exist rather than live a vibrant life go is worthy of ridicule?

I haven't condemned anyone here. It's people like you who want to kill off someone because their quality of life doesn't match yours.

Since you can read minds, I guess you're a genius. Just make sure you stay away from mine...I'd much prefer to be alive then murdered by someone who believed they were being "merciful"

Someone who believes true love would let this boy go home to God? Rather than live in a chronic persistent vegetative state while his poor body suffers the effects and his mind has no awareness of that nor life itself?

You have no idea what was going on in his mind.

Do you know what a vegetative state is? What the patient endures?
Karen Ann Quinlan was one of the most well known persistent vegetative state patients in America. She spent nearly a decade in a hospital bed and died of pneumonia nearly 10 years after she collapsed from a drug and alcohol overdose that caused her to stop breathing for prolonged periods at least twice before paramedics arrived.

And?

Quality of life isn't being flesh and bone with no consciousness whatever and machines doing the living for them. Pumping air, clearing bowels and bladder.

Again, like I said, you apparently can read minds.

I see a person when I see someone like the boy mentioned above. I don't see a person hooked up to machines.

Quality of life is demonstrated by being a living active participant in the living of it. Rather than a body that is present in the flesh while the mind is completely dead.

How do you know when someone is "actively participating"? Is it just a physical definition for you?

Just as long as the shape of the son is in the room and able to be wheeled around that's all that matters. Keep him in the tomb that is his own body because we want him here!

And you talk about my responses to someone who I disagree with? That's a mighty big judgment you're making without knowing ANYTHING other than what you SEE.

The fact that you view the body as a tomb reveals a lot about you.

Even though he's not the illusion medical science provides is good enough. Because mercy and peace are wrong!When he died 30 years ago for all intents and purposes it's OK to keep what's left pumped and filled and evacuated by machines! When there is no consciousness there the shell is all that matters!

He didn't die.

That is selfish. And that is sickening.

No, what's selfish and sickening is the way life is viewed these days. Pretty soon people will be clamoring to die because they don't own the right kind of car or because that boy down the street doesn't like them...oh, wait, that second thing already happens. And why? Because life is defined in all the wrong aspects.
 
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Habbit Animal

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Actually, for some people, YES, it is.
Then those people have a convoluted notion of what natural means.
It is medical intervention to artificially sustain biological processes that imitate life.
There is nothing natural about it save for the medical appliances used to artificially invigorate and activate organic tissues. Which atrophy over time because of that artificial suspension of natural death.

And where do you draw the line? What if someone broke their leg but didn't want to deal with the pain?
Introducing extraneous hypothetical's is not helpful here.

If someone with a broken leg didn't want to live like that they could kill themselves by their own free choice. That's not your business nor mine. And it is not what this thread is about.



I haven't condemned anyone here. It's people like you who want to kill off someone because their quality of life doesn't match yours.
You are clearly ignorant of what a persistent vegetative state is. It is a fate worse than death. When you are all about someone being forced to remain in this world so that they don't die as is God's will, you're selfish and attempting to play God.


Since you can read minds, I guess you're a genius. Just make sure you stay away from mine...I'd much prefer to be alive then murdered by someone who believed they were being "merciful"
Nor shall derision prove powerful against those who listen to humanity or those who follow in the footsteps of divinity, for they shall live forever. Forever.
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You have no idea what was going on in his mind.
You have no idea what a vegetative state is.



That's what I thought.


Again, like I said, you apparently can read minds.
Derision doesn't become a preachers wife.
Contrary to your obvious objection, I can apparently render a personal and educated opinion about vegetative states. No one has presumed to read this mans mind. Though you apparently imagine he's better off being made to suffer rather than finding peace.

I see a person when I see someone like the boy mentioned above. I don't see a person hooked up to machines.
Well then you're blind. He's a person in a vegetative state who is suffering immensely while hooked up to machines.

Obtaining an education about vegetative states, even reading about them by taking the few minutes out of your day that you otherwise choose to spend in writing replies you imagine successfully insult people word for word because you're more prone to argue for what you don't know anything about, would benefit this discussion greatly. And, most importantly, it would demonstrate a great deal of respect for the young man you are otherwise insulting due to your very obvious ignorance about his condition and suffering.




How do you know when someone is "actively participating"? Is it just a physical definition for you?
Read something about vegetative states. Education is a great blessing. :)



And you talk about my responses to someone who I disagree with? That's a mighty big judgment you're making without knowing ANYTHING other than what you SEE.
Fascinating that you condemn this young man to further suffering based on what you don't see.

As stated above you don't see the machines that sustain what is suffering in a vegetative state. A midway point between artificially sustained heart and respiration, and death. You consistently argue that physical presence is more important than quality of life. This young man is in hell.

Read something about Vegetative states. Otherwise your present lack of even basic knowledge of that condition makes all that you say emotional inflammatory verbal assaults that appear to find a means of covering your hubris that would rather argue for what you think is a life while refusing to gain that much needed education of your flagrant ignorance about VS.

The fact that you view the body as a tomb reveals a lot about you.
Educate yourself.
Arguing that a man, a man now after 30 years suffering this condition, should continue to suffer because it's better to have him artificially present says a lot about you.




He didn't die.
There is no cognitive function.



No, what's selfish and sickening is the way life is viewed these days. Pretty soon people will be clamoring to die because they don't own the right kind of car or because that boy down the street doesn't like them...oh, wait, that second thing already happens. And why? Because life is defined in all the wrong aspects.
Clearly so is mercy!
That poor man isn't enjoying a quality of life. He's artificially sustained in a non-cognitive presence in hell.

Why do you think quality of life is immaterial to life?
All that matters is a body present in the world by any means necessary? What about letting God's will be done? And allowing suffering excruciatingly to be halted so that the sufferer in an irreversible state that will only grow more chronic to find peace.
 
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Dave Ellis

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And where do you draw the line? What if someone broke their leg but didn't want to deal with the pain?

I'd probably draw the line somewhere that doesn't include an absolutely ridiculous example.

I haven't condemned anyone here. It's people like you who want to kill off someone because their quality of life doesn't match yours.

Since you can read minds, I guess you're a genius. Just make sure you stay away from mine...I'd much prefer to be alive then murdered by someone who believed they were being "merciful"

On the flip side, we don't know what the wishes of the guy in Australia was. I can say if I ever fell into a persistent vegetative state and all of my higher level brain functions were permanently destroyed, I sure wouldn't want to be hooked up to a machine for three decades afterwards. The idea is absolutely morbid.

You have no idea what was going on in his mind.

Nor do you.... If he's in a vegetative state, there is nothing going on in his mind.

Again, like I said, you apparently can read minds.

I see a person when I see someone like the boy mentioned above. I don't see a person hooked up to machines.

Then you are only seeing half the picture, because he is a person hooked up to machines.

And you talk about my responses to someone who I disagree with? That's a mighty big judgment you're making without knowing ANYTHING other than what you SEE.

Seeing as he's referring to your responses.... and he sees your responses, he's perfectly justified in criticizing your responses.

The fact that you view the body as a tomb reveals a lot about you.

He's not saying a body is a tomb, he's saying a completely inoperative body with no hope of recovery is a tomb. Let the person die gracefully rather than having that horrific experience dragged out over the span of decades.

No, what's selfish and sickening is the way life is viewed these days. Pretty soon people will be clamoring to die because they don't own the right kind of car or because that boy down the street doesn't like them...oh, wait, that second thing already happens. And why? Because life is defined in all the wrong aspects.

Again, if you need to fall back to ridiculous examples or slippery slope arguments then your argument probably isn't all that strong to begin with.

Life is about experiencing life. Seeing the world, embracing your passions, meeting other people and all the other wonderful things we all get to experience.

If you think life is merely about breathing and having a heartbeat, I'd call your view of life sickening.

If my life was ever reduced to simply having a heartbeat while being permanently mentally incapacitated... My life is essentially over. What good is it going to do anyone (including myself) to keep my shell of a body sustained for decades on end?

If you want to talk about selfishness, how selfish is it for someone to demand a loved one stays on a life support machine when their life is over, simply because they don't want to admit they've lost a loved one and they're never coming back. How selfish would it be of me to tie up the resources of a hospital for three decades on their life support machine with no hope of recovery, when someone who may actually have their life saved by the machine can't access it.

When you permanently lose your individuality and you lose everything that makes you a person.... when you lose the ability to even think, like it or not you simply become a bag of meat with a pulse. There is nothing special or sacred about that condition. Everything that made you, you, is gone.

It's horrifying to think of that possibly happening to me some day, but if it ever did happen, I would much rather face reality on realities terms. As horrifying as that scenario is, it's even more horrifying to think it could be dragged out over decades. I can't think of a worse fate to have.... I'd wish to be given the opportunity to die gracefully, and allow my family the opportunity to mourn and move on with their own lives. That's merciful, both to myself and to them.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Life is about experiencing life. Seeing the world, embracing your passions, meeting other people and all the other wonderful things we all get to experience.

and for each person that is different.

What you may think is a great life may not be a great life for someone else and vice versa.

For those who keep telling me to educate myself, I know more about vegetative states than I care to admit, and it's a big reason why I have the beliefs I do. I've lost more than a few relatives over the years, and I've had relatives who are still living because of "unnatural" means and I've seen both sides of the pendulum.

If you want to kill yourself, by all means, go ahead and do it. But don't sit there and pretend like it's the "right" and "mercificul" thing to do.

I'm done here.
 
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Dave Ellis

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and for each person that is different.

What you may think is a great life may not be a great life for someone else and vice versa.

For those who keep telling me to educate myself, I know more about vegetative states than I care to admit, and it's a big reason why I have the beliefs I do. I've lost more than a few relatives over the years, and I've had relatives who are still living because of "unnatural" means and I've seen both sides of the pendulum.

If you want to kill yourself, by all means, go ahead and do it. But don't sit there and pretend like it's the "right" and "mercificul" thing to do.

I'm done here.



If you aren't granted rights over your own life, then how free is the society that you're living in?

Hey, if someone says in advance if something ever happens to them and they become permanently vegetative, and they want to be hooked up to a machine for decades.... so be it.

If someone does not want to go through with, or exist like that, they should also be granted that right.

What you're advocating is removing that right from people and forcing them to endure something they'd never wish for themselves.
 
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If you aren't granted rights over your own life, then how free is the society that you're living in?

Hey, if someone says in advance if something ever happens to them and they become permanently vegetative, and they want to be hooked up to a machine for decades.... so be it.

If someone does not want to go through with, or exist like that, they should also be granted that right.

What you're advocating is removing that right from people and forcing them to endure something they'd never wish for themselves.

I agree that in such a scenario, the patient should have a right to choose whether or not to stay in a vegetative state or not, and if not, that consent should have been given before they got into such a state.
 
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If you aren't granted rights over your own life, then how free is the society that you're living in?

Hey, if someone says in advance if something ever happens to them and they become permanently vegetative, and they want to be hooked up to a machine for decades.... so be it.

If someone does not want to go through with, or exist like that, they should also be granted that right.

What you're advocating is removing that right from people and forcing them to endure something they'd never wish for themselves.

It's the ultra-right extremist platform that believes suspension by any means necessary so as to have a body present in this world is superior to the rights of individuals and their unique personal entitlement to exercise choice for their life in this world.

This is the platform that assaults parents who wish to take their brain dead newborn off life support, while not offering to absorb the costs, while demanding the parents suffer watching their child sustained by artificial means.

It's the zealot agenda that was in the news last year wherein an El-Salvadorian woman was denied a life saving abortion because her anencephalic fetus was toxifying her body and the fetus itself would die shortly after delivery. This life saving measure was refused so as to demonstrate pro-life compassion encompasses the living mother. Because the rights of the brainless fetus superseded her own. In El Salvador abortion for any reason is outlawed in that Catholic country.

The ultra-right zealot anti-choice agenda would rather that mother die due to her toxic fetus, than the brainless fetus be extracted so that she might live. The priority isn't life. It's population and misogyny.

And it's inhumane.

However, the objective of that type political platform is to sustain a population that represents the agenda philosophies at the expense of the individual in the population. It's extremism that revokes choice as an entitlement in life because individual liberty and choice is superfluous to the aims of the ultra-right extremist agenda.
 
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