would this be proof of god

Mr Strawberry said:

No, it really doesn't make sense. I mean, really doesn't.

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Cab switched the focus of the conversation from "going to Hell" to "killing Jesus on the Cross" and got himself confused.

A person goes to Hell if he doesn't have the Blood of Christ applied to his account.

It's that simple.

Don't make anything more of that than what's there, or you'll confuse yourself.

AV1611VET said:

If you're talking about who is responsible for going to aitch when they die ... you know perfectly well who is responsible.

And if you truly don't know, then all I can say is that someone who just barely knows arithmetic is messing around with calculus.

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AV1611VET said:

Hell wasn't "created" ... it was "prepared."

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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AV1611VET said:

It's a slight technicality, but it shuts up those* who say God created Hell in Genesis 1.

* Gets them started, actually.

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AV1611VET said:

Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

Yes

Yes

Did you first warn him ... in writing?

Did you send his brother to him, only to see him kill his brother?

Did you then send others, only to see him kill them as well?

Luke 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
Luke 20:10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
Luke 20:11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
Luke 20:12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
Luke 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Luke 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
Luke 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

And for the record, your analogy is way off.

NONE of God's children are "going to the basement."

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

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I still don't see where you've answered my question: who are "they" that are responsible for this suffering without end ?

I see where you've mentioned committing an unpardonable sin.
I see where you've quoted scriptures describing the preparation of hell.
I remember you said you're not okay with people suffering in that fashion.
And I remember you said it is "they" who are responsible for this suffering of people.

I still don't see where you've said who "they" are. Who specifically is responsible for this suffering of people ? I'm not even asking about "hell", or some such ... I'm talking specifically about the suffering of people without end. Who are the "they" that are responsible for people ending up enduring this suffering ?

anyathesword said:

Actually I would like to know what kind of morals athiest have. For real? What kind of morals do you have and where do you get them from? Serious question!

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We get our morals from the same place you do. As much as you'd like to think so, you don't actually get them from your bible. This is apparent in the way that you don't follow Levitican law. You don't stone people to death for -- well, anything really (do you?). It's basic human empathy. We see someone suffering and realize that we would not want it to happen to ourselves. If we do good for others, it makes us feel good and, at the same time, does good for humanity as a whole. We give to charity, not because we're trying to impress some all powerful being, but because it is a good thing to do.

Morality developed, believe it or not, as a way to preserve our species. If we didn't have a sense of empathy, our ancestors would have been more likely to have killed each other off and you wouldn't be here today.

Do you honestly think, as an atheist, that my extracurricular activities include murder, theft, and rape?

Is your belief in a deity or adherence to scripture the only thing keeping you from doing these things? Because, if so, then I think that is far more disturbing.

Mr Strawberry said:

Gosh, I can't imagine. Just think, without the threat of hell and god watching us all the time we could do anything we liked! It must be a mystery to you that we don't spend all day murdering and raping. Or perhaps the question is more a reflection of where you get your morals from? Do you merely behave in a certain way because you have been told that if you don't you will go to hell and be tortured for eternity? Do you think that makes you a good person? Fear of consequences? Think about it.

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I think people do what they like anyway lol!!! Well I am happy you aren't murdering and raping people all day, I think that's wonderful, lol.

THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Behaving in a certian way is important yes, but what's more important is your heart!! It's not about being a good person, it's about the heart! Once the heart commits to the Lord, the fruits of good behavior will start to show. Yes yes there will be mistakes, there will the hard times, there will be bad choices, but that's the reason for repentance and Jesus.

I do think about it every day.

anyathesword said:

The Bible has the answers to what God expects, why there is suffering and pain, how He communicates with us today.

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Maybe I missed that passage, mind quoting it for me?

One thing we need to realize is we can't make God work in our ways. He is our Father, our Creator, He knows what is best for us better than we know ourselfs!! God started His creation to fellowship with Him. But through history people turned away over and over again.

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I use to think that. Until it was clear that it is imposible for a divine being to take personal interest in 7+ billion people on the planet. And it was clear that all the preachers where giving different messages, some contradictory. That didn't fit the idea there was one God, one message. And the Bible is not much help, it is ment for a different time. And not much of it fits with what we know now of history or geoligy.

God did miracles, people didn't believe. God sent His Son to die and to preach. People didn't believe. God (Jesus) sent out His disciples to spread the Good News. People didn't believe and killed almost all the disciples!

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Yes, because the message the disciples where contrary to the way the messiah the Jews where expecting. They where not expecting a messiah that didn't put up a fight and let the Romans put him on a cross. They where expecting a warror. To suggest God would send a messiah like Jesus was heredical to them.

People are just to stubborn like me!

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No question, I was to. Still am, but I have ways to change now through reason.

Why don't you try to start praying? Talking to God?

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Did that several times in the past, still do it every now and then, still nothing. If there is a God, him not interacting with the world is not the best way to show me he is there.

TillICollapse said:

I still don't see where you've answered my question: who are "they" that are responsible for this suffering without end ?

I see where you've mentioned committing an unpardonable sin.
I see where you've quoted scriptures describing the preparation of hell.
I remember you said you're not okay with people suffering in that fashion.
And I remember you said it is "they" who are responsible for this suffering of people.

I still don't see where you've said who "they" are. Who specifically is responsible for this suffering of people ? I'm not even asking about "hell", or some such ... I'm talking specifically about the suffering of people without end. Who are the "they" that are responsible for people ending up enduring this suffering ?

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I know what he means, but you'll never get him to say anything plainly.

He means "they" as in people are responsible for their own damnation.

In a way, this is what Christian dogma says. After all, you can live your life as a murderer, thief, or rapist, and simply decide not to go to hell. Just say "sorry, Jesus" and you're good to go. I guess this is why if you don't believe any of it is real in the first place, you're screwed -- and that's somehow our fault, not God's.

Delphiki said:

We get our morals from the same place you do. As much as you'd like to think so, you don't actually get them from your bible. This is apparent in the way that you don't follow Levitican law. You don't stone people to death for -- well, anything really (do you?). It's basic human empathy. We see someone suffering and realize that we would not want it to happen to ourselves. If we do good for others, it makes us feel good and, at the same time, does good for humanity as a whole. We give to charity, not because we're trying to impress some all powerful being, but because it is a good thing to do.

Morality developed, believe it or not, as a way to preserve our species. If we didn't have a sense of empathy, our ancestors would have been more likely to have killed each other off and you wouldn't be here today.

Do you honestly think, as an atheist, that my extracurricular activities include murder, theft, and rape?

Is your belief in a deity or adherence to scripture the only thing keeping you from doing these things? Because, if so, then I think that is far more disturbing.

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Wait a minute, you are assuming way to much here that doesn't apply to me at all.

Jesus came on earth to save us and not have other's stoning us for adultery or whatever. That's the reason for Jesus, He gave us a free gift.
The Bible is where I get my morals.

Do I follow them all the time? ABSOLUTLY NOT!!

Do I try to impress God to give to charity? NO! Is it for the people? YES!

What about the Holocaust? What about the World Wars? People kill off each other all the time!!

When did I say your extra-cirrular activities are murder, theft, and rape? Mr. Strawberry said that. I just said I'm happy he isnt doing that.

No my belief in God is not stopping me from doing bad things. I'm not a perfect person at all. I have to go to God everyday to say I'm sorry.

Delphiki said:

Is your belief in a deity or adherence to scripture the only thing keeping you from doing these things? Because, if so, then I think that is far more disturbing.

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You overlook something.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The Law adds an ingredient into our deeds: sin.

That's something your morals can't do.

anyathesword said:

Once the heart commits to the Lord, the fruits of good behavior will start to show.

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As an atheist, I can assure you that committing to the Lord is not required to see the fruits of good behavior.

AV1611VET said:

Cab switched the focus of the conversation from "going to Hell" to "killing Jesus on the Cross" and got himself confused.

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No, I saw his question, it was pointing out that the jesus story is nonsensical. Admittedly, everything related to the story is nonsensical and full of holes, but there was no confusion that I saw.

A person goes to Hell if he doesn't have the Blood of Christ applied to his account.

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Sounds like my bank. Seriously, you have no idea how ridiculous what you've just said is.

It's that simple.

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Really? Tell us again why jesus (god in human form remember?) had to get humans to murder him so he could pretend to die, all to allow himself (god in godly form) to do a spot of forgiving? Was going through the whole business of getting himself crucified really necessary before he could forgive all of humanity its sins? I mean who is doing the forgiving and condemning here? Who is jesus supposed to be impressing? Other than himself in another form I mean? And that's the story that you base your whole belief system around? Wow.

There's this bridge in London...

Don't make anything more of that than what's there, or you'll confuse yourself.

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Oh, I don't think it's very complicated.

Delphiki said:

I know what he means, but you'll never get him to say anything plainly.

He means "they" as in people are responsible for their own damnation.

In a way, this is what Christian dogma says. After all, you can live your life as a murderer, thief, or rapist, and simply decide not to go to hell. Just say "sorry, Jesus" and you're good to go. I guess this is why if you don't believe any of it is real in the first place, you're screwed -- and that's somehow our fault, not God's.

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Wait! No you will go to hell if you continue to do things delibaretly!! Saying sorry means turning away from the whatever it is. Walking the other way, not doing it, staying AWAY from it, etc.

You can not live your life as a murderer and rapist and whatever. If you truely repent, thats in your heart and stay away from sin, you will be saved.

God is the judge, we are responsible for our choices and our heart.

anyathesword said:

The Bible is where I get my morals.

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I guarantee you are wrong and will gladly challenge that statement.

anyathesword said:

I think people do what they like anyway lol!!! Well I am happy you aren't murdering and raping people all day, I think that's wonderful, lol.

THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Behaving in a certian way is important yes, but what's more important is your heart!! It's not about being a good person, it's about the heart! Once the heart commits to the Lord, the fruits of good behavior will start to show. Yes yes there will be mistakes, there will the hard times, there will be bad choices, but that's the reason for repentance and Jesus.

I do think about it every day.

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And without religion in your life would you still behave in what you consider a moral manner? If you lost your faith tomorrow, how would you behave? Would you behave in any way differently? Morally differently?

Mr Strawberry said:

No, I saw his question, it was pointing out that the jesus story is nonsensical. Admittedly, everything related to the story is nonsensical and full of holes, but there was no confusion that I saw.

Sounds like my bank. Seriously, you have no idea how ridiculous what you've just said is.

Really? Tell us again why jesus (god in human form remember?) had to get humans to murder him so he could pretend to die, all to allow himself (god in godly form) to do a spot of forgiving? Was going through the whole business of getting himself crucified really necessary before he could forgive all of humanity its sins? I mean who is doing the forgiving and condemning here? Who is jesus supposed to be impressing? Other than himself in another form I mean? And that's the story that you base your whole belief system around? Wow.

There's this bridge in London...

Oh, I don't think it's very complicated.

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You're not ready to be saved yet, are you?

Delphiki said:

I know what he means, but you'll never get him to say anything plainly.

He means "they" as in people are responsible for their own damnation.

In a way, this is what Christian dogma says. After all, you can live your life as a murderer, thief, or rapist, and simply decide not to go to hell. Just say "sorry, Jesus" and you're good to go. I guess this is why if you don't believe any of it is real in the first place, you're screwed -- and that's somehow our fault, not God's.

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Other than evasive language and perhaps misdirection, and hoping others will put words in his mouth for him, I don't understand why he's not answering plainly .... ?

AV1611VET said:

You're not ready to be saved yet, are you?

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According to Ephesians 2:8, he doesn't need to be ready.

TillICollapse said:

Other than evasive language and perhaps misdirection, and hoping others will put words in his mouth for him, I don't understand why he's not answering plainly .... ?

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I'd like you to meet CF user AV1611VET.

@ AV1611VET

I don't understand why you are not clarifying in your own words who "they" are. Why are not answering the question plainly ? Now, I'm asking *you* about your own motives and reasoning for not answering plainly.

Example:

"Do you believe in apples ?"
"Yes."
"Do you have an apple ?"
"If you don't know, it's like calculus to someone who is just beginning with addition."

???

I don't understand the reason for the evasion. What is your reason ? Again, I'm not asking about my own thoughts ... I'm asking you about your own view on your motives and/or reasoning for not answering plainly.

Delphiki said:

I guarantee you are wrong and will gladly challenge that statement.

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Go ahead

Mr Strawberry said:

And without religion in your life would you still behave in what you consider a moral manner? If you lost your faith tomorrow, how would you behave? Would you behave in any way differently? Morally differently?

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Yes, I would know what is right and what isn't, and of course when you don't have morals from the Bible you act in the way of the world!

If I lost my faith I would just do what I want not caring what the consequances are.

Let me explain it this way, whether christian or not you will decide what you want to do, but with morals in the Bible you will KNOW what those actions will entail and you would decide to stop or get help.