Mixed Marriages in the Orthodox Church

Mariya116 said:

So do Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox. We all have it in common, I'm not sure why it was mentioned on the list.

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Yes - I am bit concerned. I am not advocating Catholicism, just stating what we believe.

New Legacy said:

Yes - I am bit concerned. I am not advocating Catholicism, just stating what we believe.

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I know, and you are right. Unfortunately, the Orthodox are not known for being Catholic-friendly. I go to ecumenical boards to read more productive dialogues between the two rather than to strictly Orthodox or Catholic boards. On Orthodox and Catholic boards alike, it's "we are right and they are wrong and hopefully our poor lost brothers will one day come home." Sigh.

Mariya116 said:

I know, and you are right. Unfortunately, the Orthodox are not known for being Catholic-friendly. I go to ecumenical boards to read more productive dialogues between the two rather than to strictly Orthodox or Catholic boards. On Orthodox and Catholic boards alike, it's "we are right and they are wrong and hopefully our poor lost brothers will one day come home." Sigh.

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I would LOVE to be able to speak regularly on an Orthodox forum. I am very knowledgeable about many different Christian groups. I can read all kinds of things about Orthodox, but it is the questions and interactions that really bring about the right understanding.

I do notice a kind of xenophobia among Catholics and Orthodox. The reason being that English speaking Catholics and Orthodox are of course, usually a minority. I am very much afraid of posting here, even though my only intention is to gain understanding.

New Legacy said:

I am very much afraid of posting here, even though my only intention is to gain understanding.

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By all means do not be afraid! But wear your thick skin when you post, okay?

Are you Catholic? Because your profile shows you as just "Christian."

Mariya116 said:

By all means do not be afraid! But wear your thick skin when you post, okay?

Are you Catholic? Because your profile shows you as just "Christian."

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I always try to be kind.

And yes, I am very Catholic

New Legacy said:

I always try to be kind.

And yes, I am very Catholic

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Then you may want to update your settings so it's clear to everyone that you are.

I married a Catholic woman so I had to do a bunch of research myself. Catholics generally allow marriage to non-Catholics, however they must both promise to raise the children Catholic. However, for the Orthodox there is an exception. Because the Catholics consider Orthodox Christians to be extremely close ("real presence", etc.), they allow Catholics to be married in an Orthodox church AND raise the children Orthodox (this is what my gracious wife has agreed to, she loves Orthodoxy but isn't converting for a number of reasons).

To some others posting comments which seem to indicate the "sad state" of people being married from two different faiths, I think you're being ridiculous. There are not many young Orthodox Christians to marry in the states. Most churches are ethnic social clubs, where converts are looked on with suspicion and ostracized (generalization I know, but that doesn't make it false). My wife has been wonderful, fasting with me during the seasons and making food that aligns with the fast. We are talking about attending DL in an Orthodox church as well as a Byzantine Catholic church which would have the same Liturgy but my wife would be able to have communion.

Forgive me.

Barky said:

There are not many young Orthodox Christians to marry in the states.

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Very true. I would gladly marry a Catholic and would still consider myself lucky that it is an Apostolic Christian at all!

Barky said:

I married a Catholic woman so I had to do a bunch of research myself. Catholics generally allow marriage to non-Catholics, however they must both promise to raise the children Catholic. However, for the Orthodox there is an exception. Because the Catholics consider Orthodox Christians to be extremely close ("real presence", etc.), they allow Catholics to be married in an Orthodox church AND raise the children Orthodox (this is what my gracious wife has agreed to, she loves Orthodoxy but isn't converting for a number of reasons).

To some others posting comments which seem to indicate the "sad state" of people being married from two different faiths, I think you're being ridiculous. There are not many young Orthodox Christians to marry in the states. Most churches are ethnic social clubs, where converts are looked on with suspicion and ostracized (generalization I know, but that doesn't make it false). My wife has been wonderful, fasting with me during the seasons and making food that aligns with the fast. We are talking about attending DL in an Orthodox church as well as a Byzantine Catholic church which would have the same Liturgy but my wife would be able to have communion.

Forgive me.

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That's wonderful, Barky.

Barky said:

I married a Catholic woman so I had to do a bunch of research myself. Catholics generally allow marriage to non-Catholics, however they must both promise to raise the children Catholic. However, for the Orthodox there is an exception. Because the Catholics consider Orthodox Christians to be extremely close ("real presence", etc.), they allow Catholics to be married in an Orthodox church AND raise the children Orthodox (this is what my gracious wife has agreed to, she loves Orthodoxy but isn't converting for a number of reasons).

To some others posting comments which seem to indicate the "sad state" of people being married from two different faiths, I think you're being ridiculous. There are not many young Orthodox Christians to marry in the states. Most churches are ethnic social clubs, where converts are looked on with suspicion and ostracized (generalization I know, but that doesn't make it false). My wife has been wonderful, fasting with me during the seasons and making food that aligns with the fast. We are talking about attending DL in an Orthodox church as well as a Byzantine Catholic church which would have the same Liturgy but my wife would be able to have communion.

Forgive me.

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I am am Anglican woman looking forward to marriage with an Orthodox man. I hope to be as lovely as your wife!

New Legacy said:

That would depend on whether the person was Eastern Catholic or not. A few things confuse me - Latin Catholics do pray to the saints and do have evening prayer.

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Mariya116 said:

So do Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox. We all have it in common, I'm not sure why it was mentioned on the list.

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I was talking about general Christian, not just Romans. I should've been more clear.

New Legacy said:

Catholics must fast on every Friday unless they find another suitable penance. We absolutly fast on every Friday of Lent.

As a non-culturally identifiable Church, it is hard to give strict requirements regarding food.

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I don't like to comment on other's fasting practices, but to claim that the Roman fasts are anything like the Orthodox fasts is just incorrect.

Maybe in other countries the every Friday fast is followed, but definitely not in America. When I used to confess to a Roman priest that I hadn't done a Friday penance they would laugh at me and say we didn't do that anymore. Multiple priests told me that. I knew many Roman Catholics. None of them fasted on Fridays.

As for fasting from meat on Friday in Lent, if that's followed (did you know that chicken doesn't count as meat for many Hispanic families? Or pepperoni, or bacon, or a slew of other things I was told aren't meat by Roman Catholics) the different selections aren't exactly Lenten for Orthodox either. I have relatives who just eat pancakes every Friday during Lent.

Orthodoxy is pan-cultural as well, and still gives strict requirements for food.

Barky said:

To some others posting comments which seem to indicate the "sad state" of people being married from two different faiths, I think you're being ridiculous. There are not many young Orthodox Christians to marry in the states. Most churches are ethnic social clubs, where converts are looked on with suspicion and ostracized (generalization I know, but that doesn't make it false). My wife has been wonderful, fasting with me during the seasons and making food that aligns with the fast. We are talking about attending DL in an Orthodox church as well as a Byzantine Catholic church which would have the same Liturgy but my wife would be able to have communion.

Forgive me.

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I didn't say it was a sad state, I said it would make life very, very difficult. My wife and I comment all the time on how decisions we're making are so much easier because we're of the same faith. You're lucky in that you have a wife who is obviously encouraging you in your faith, but many, many, many find the opposite. I hear all the time of people who are struggling in their marriage because their spouse isn't of the same faith. The spouse won't pray with them, keeps making little 'jokes' about the necessity of the pope, makes condescending remarks when they get annoyed about something in the faith, complains about having to fast from food and sex, encourages the spouse to sleep in 'just this one Sunday' because they don't want to get up, resents the spouse for not accepting their church's communion, or has their pastor's voice whispering in their ear constantly about how it's wrong they're going to two different churches every Sunday. For every one marriage that works out like this you run into ten or so where the marriage is not performing its job of making you a better Orthodox Christian. It takes a very special, understanding spouse (such as your wife) to be able to do that, and not everyone is up for it.

And yes, the generalization does make it false. I have never been to a Church where I felt ostracized or that it was just an ethnic club. Every parish I've ever been to has been welcoming, friendly, and a melting pot. Does that mean that I can say they're all that way?

Finally, I've had four friends get married in the past year. All Orthodox, all found Orthodox spouses. It's not so impossible as some would claim. Not that it's extraordinarily easy, but nothing in life is.

Joseph Hazen said:

I don't like to comment on other's fasting practices, but to claim that the Roman fasts are anything like the Orthodox fasts is just incorrect.

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Hi Joseph- I did not compare fasting between us. I just pointed out that we do fast.

Maybe in other countries the every Friday fast is followed, but definitely not in America. When I used to confess to a Roman priest that I hadn't done a Friday penance they would laugh at me and say we didn't do that anymore. Multiple priests told me that. I knew many Roman Catholics. None of them fasted on Fridays.

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When I was in seminary, I knew guys studying to be priests that had no clue about it either because they were not properly catechized. Nevertheless, we are called to fast or find some other penance. All food served on Friday was meatless.

As for fasting from meat on Friday in Lent, if that's followed (did you know that chicken doesn't count as meat for many Hispanic families? Or pepperoni, or bacon, or a slew of other things I was told aren't meat by Roman Catholics) the different selections aren't exactly Lenten for Orthodox either. I have relatives who just eat pancakes every Friday during Lent.

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Catholics also sin. I am not sure why you are pointing out the errors of others. Catholics commit adultery, that does not mean we believe it is moral. I just wanted to casually mention what we do believe which is what the Church teaches.

Joseph Hazen said:

Finally, I've had four friends get married in the past year. All Orthodox, all found Orthodox spouses. It's not so impossible as some would claim. Not that it's extraordinarily easy, but nothing in life is.

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I'm truly happy for your friends, but I really don't know how to look specifically for an Orthodox spouse. Okay, I have a profile on Orthodoxchristiandating.com Ask me if I got a single letter so far - the answer is no. In the meantime, I'm chatting with these two men I met recently, one is Romanian (a nominal Orthodox but really not religious) and the other Polish American (a Catholic and a churchgoer but still bending certain commandments). Which one will I consider getting serious with? Automatically the Romanian because he is nominally Orthodox? I have no idea how to make faith play any role in this other than praying for guidance from God in these matters.

New Legacy said:

Hi Joseph- I did not compare fasting between us. I just pointed out that we do fast.

When I was in seminary, I knew guys studying to be priests that had no clue about it either because they were not properly catechized. Nevertheless, we are called to fast or find some other penance. All food served on Friday was meatless.

Catholics also sin. I am not sure why you are pointing out the errors of others. Catholics commit adultery, that does not mean we believe it is moral. I just wanted to casually mention what we do believe which is what the Church teaches.

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Orthodox abide by lex orandi, lex credendi much more-so than Roman Catholics. I'm often told by Roman Catholics "Yes, people do _____, but the church teaches _______" That argument doesn't work with Orthodoxy.

But regardless of that, I'm talking about actual day to day practices, the reality of living with someone who practices differently. Even a devout Roman who knows about the Friday penance doesn't fast on Wednesday, doesn't fast as strictly as the Great Fast, and has no spiritual compulsion to do so. It's very, very difficult to keep doing something that you know you could give up and still be fulfilling all the requirements of your church.

Mariya, your relationships are obviously your business, and you get to choose who to date. I am just generally giving the advice I always give (even to people of other religions): don't marry outside your faith. You know your life and individuals better than I do, you know whether to apply or disregard my advice. I promise you I don't hold it as a hard and fast rule. I know we live in the real world, and individuals are worth the individual attention Christ gives us.

Joseph Hazen said:

Orthodox abide by lex orandi, lex credendi much more-so than Roman Catholics. I'm often told by Roman Catholics "Yes, people do _____, but the church teaches _______" That argument doesn't work with Orthodoxy.

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It does not work with Catholicism either. That is why we call them cafeteria Catholics- they pick and choose. I believe a person interested in Orthodoxy pointed out the question of what do Orthodox believe and what do the laity believe/do. But I am not familiar enough with the Orthodox to make accusations and find faults.

But regardless of that, I'm talking about actual day to day practices, the reality of living with someone who practices differently.
Even a devout Roman who knows about the Friday penance doesn't fast on Wednesday, doesn't fast as strictly as the Great Fast, and has no spiritual compulsion to do so. It's very, very difficult to keep doing something that you know you could give up and still be fulfilling all the requirements of your church.

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Catholics are not required to fast on Wednesdays. I do find it interesting that you seem to emphasize fasting when that was one of the complaints of the east against the west prior to schism - that we fast too much.

New Legacy said:

Catholics are not required to fast on Wednesdays.

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That's the point I'm making. There are differences between how we practice our faith. Actual, legitimate differences that can cause hundreds of little annoyances and rifts between a couple.

I do find it interesting that you seem to emphasize fasting when that was one of the complaints of the east against the west prior to schism - that we fast too much.

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Fasting is just the easiest. Pick whichever you like. Many Orthodox do not care for the sacred heart of Jesus devotion. Is it going to come up that your spouse may refuse to allow its enthronement? Some go so far as to find it heretical. Is the Roman spouse going to feel sad that their kid will never have a "First Communion" party when they're seven? No big "Confirmation" party other than after Baptism? That the pope isn't given, in your home, the place of honor he is in Roman Catholicism? That your kids might not know or care about the rosary? That your family doesn't celebrate the feasts of Fatima or Lourdes or Guadalupe? That your spouse finds Fatima heretical? Which church do you go to on Sunday? Are you going to drag kids to both? Then explain to them why Mommy's church, which claims to be the One True Church, disagrees with Daddy's One True Church, and how they can only receive Communion in one? Is it going to annoy you that your spouse's church often prays for only Orthodox Christians? Which priest will bless the house? If there's a calendar difference, when do you celebrate Christmas? If there isn't, which church do you go to for Christmas? On Easter are you going to ask your spouse to break the Lenten Fast if Pascha hasn't come yet? When you have problems in your marriage are you going to go to the Roman or Orthodox priest? Is your spouse telling your kid that what they learned at their Catholic school is wrong going to bug you? What about the stories of saints who were martyred by the Romans, or who are saints because they stood up to the Roman Catholics? Is it going to bug you if your spouse says contraception is fine and uses a condom?

The point is there are a million real issues that come up when you live with someone, when you share your life with someone. Mixed marriages face a lifetime of discussions that are non-issues for an Orthodox couple. Many of these can be overcome, or may not be a part of someones Orthodox or Roman Catholic practice, but they also can be, and often are. They can be compromised on, but that's not an issue for a same-faith couple, and compromise on some of these issues can easily lead to children who are ill-informed about their faith, faithless, or ambivalent about faith altogether. It's far more likely than that they will produce devout children (and often, spouses) of either faith. We have to remember the purpose of marriage.

New Legacy, do you think a Catholic spouse would be okay fasting 54 days from meat and 47 days from dairy during Great Lent and Holy week and trying to refrain from sexual relations during that time? We also fast the 40 days prior to Christmas.

New Legacy - please do not think the all Catholics are Latin [ i.e. RC] Catholics.

Things are not so black and white all the time, Joseph. I don't mind Catholic devotions, for one. Many Orthodox don't. I own a rosary, and use it.

We have several Orth.-Cath. families in the parish. We did have an issue with one such family when the priest did not let the Catholic mother's sister become the godmother at her child's Orthodox christening. It was an issue, yes, she was upset, but are you saying she shouldn't have married her husband from the start and should not have had those three beautiful kids with him in fear of this situation? I disagree. They are a lovely family and love each other dearly. There are several mixed families in our parish, and they seem to work around these things.

I think if a person is so adamant about religious differences, he or she will not go into a mixed marriage to begin with. Those that do take this step are the flexible ones who are willing to compromise and work together, I would think.