The two witnesses

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 11, 2014

In Revelation 11:3-4 we read3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The two Olive trees feed the Oil to the two candlesticks, which in turn lighten His 7 lamps.

Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

And if we back up well see the bigger picture of this, and even the answer to Zechariahs question, who these 2 truly are?

Zechariah 4:1-6
And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

The angel answered Zechariahs question as to who these were, but Zechariah missed it because he asks the angel again in verse 12, and the angel once again tells him these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
And these 2 anointed ones are Gods Word and Spirit, which feed the Oil (Spirit) to the 7 lamps.

Lets take this mystery step by step

First notice the two olive branches feed the oil to the 7 pipes, which light the 7 lamps. (Zech 4:2)

Then notice in Zech 4:10 the angel tells Zechariah that those 7 lamps are the 7 eyes of the Lord.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

But before I go any further let me say this, there is no literal man, or men who is in control of, or even feeds the Oil (Holy Spirit) to the 7 eyes of the Lord.

But lets explore this further.

Notice here the 7 lamps are shown as the 7 spirits of God (7 eyes of the Lord)

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Now here again we are shown the 7 eyes (same as the 7 lamps, which are the 7 spirits of God)
Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

And again we see the angel talking about those 7 lamps (7 eyes / 7 spirits of God) whom the 2 anointed feed the Oil (Spirit) into.

Zechariah 4:10
For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
And then finally we see the One stone (Precious Stone/Rock) on which those 7 eyes (7 spirits of God) would be...

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So you see it is the Lord's Word and Spirit (2 anointed ones) that feed the oil to lighten the 7 lamps ( 7 eyes / 7 spirits of God)
And here we see the One stone that would bear witness of Himself (Word) along with the Fathers (Spirit) who would also bear witness of Him.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

And those who are born of Him, also have this same witness dwelling in themselves.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: ..

Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

interpreter · Jan 11, 2014

God's two witnesses , and the only two worshipers found in the temple of God, are Christians and Jews.

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 11, 2014

Now I know many might have questions about these 2 witnesses, such as the time they were determined to prophesy 1,260 days (42 months). But I can assure you this time is not to be taken literally, but is rather a sign (symbolism ) of time. I wrote a thread proving this very point, the link to that thread I will also provide http://www.christianforums.com/t7796293/

Now, let’s move on to other questions that may arise about the 2 witnesses, such as verse 5….

Revelation 11:5 “And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” The answer to this mystery is shown in Jeremiah, where the Lord said His words (witness) would be like fire in the mouth of Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 5:14 “Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.”

In Revelation 11:6 “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.” We know men (by Gods power) have done such things in scripture, but there again, only God can do these things by way of His Word and Spirit working in those men.

We see in Revelation 11:7 “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”

We see this same language used here in Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

The woman represents the spiritual Israel, or spiritual seed of Christ, (Body of Christ) which is made up of many members(saints). Also notice, that verse says they “have the testimony of Jesus Christ” so they have the Lords witness in themselves.

Also in Revelation 11:7 we are told the beast would overcome them, and kill them, which is also shown in scripture. Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And then in Revelation 11:8 “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” This verse may be harder for people to grasp, but we know thus far we are talking about a group of people (saints being killed), and we are also talking about a spiritual place called Sodom and Egypt. As we know the Lord was not crucified literally in Sodom or Egypt, but it is also symbolic.

First let’s confirm by scripture the Lords people (saints) being killed, and bodies lying in the streets.
Isaiah 51:23 “But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.”
Same wording here in Psalm 79:2-3 2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.3 Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.”

And that is the same wording we see in Revelation 11:9 “and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves”
[FONT=&quot]
But let me backtrack a bit to the meaning of the spiritual place called Sodom and Egypt. Sodom and Egypt was a place where Gods people were held in bondage, and even vexed in spirit like Lot. So in a sense, they are a much larger reflection of being held captive and in bondage, even vexed in spirit like strangers in a strange land (which speaks of this present evil world)

Just as Christ was crucified for the world, and we also with Him are crucified to the world. Galatians 6:14 “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world[/FONT]

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 11, 2014

Okay, now back to Revelation 11:9 where we it says Revelation 11:9 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, This is also hard for some to grasp, but to the world, because we who are of the Spirit, we do not live after the lusts of the flesh. And so in their eyes, we are dead. Just as we are told in Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

And then the meaning of the three days and a half in Revelation 11:9; which is also a sign of time, or time, times, and half a time. Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. This time is also shown in Daniel 12:7.

In Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This is the sign of how Gods Word and Spirit (which is Light) torments the children of darkness (seed of evil doers) because it bears witness of their sins. Here we see the evil spirits fearing that torment by the Sons (Word of God) presence. Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

So thats why the world would be merry and rejoicing over the removal of those 2 witnesses in their lives, because those 2 witnesses bear witness to their conscience that sin is evil. Even in this day and age we are seeing how Gods word, and commandments are being trampled on like the street, and how lawlessness is being embraced by many over that of righteousness.

This is the sign of casting the Truth to the ground, people falling away from the gospel, and treading underfoot the Son of God (Word of God) Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, (Word of God).

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

And this sign also has to do with wearing out the saints, and scattering the power of the holy people.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And then finally in Revelation 11:11-12 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This is the sign of the dead in Christ being raised first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 11, 2014

interpreter said:
God's two witnesses , and the only two worshipers found in the temple of God, are Christians and Jews.

One Spirit, One Body, be they Jew or Gentile.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Bible2 · Jan 12, 2014

interpreter said in post 2

God's two witnesses , and the only two worshipers found in the temple of God, are Christians and Jews.

In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

granpa · Jan 12, 2014

Boaz and Jachin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boaz_and_Jachin

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 12, 2014

Bible2 said:
In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

Moses and Elijah do not feed the golden Oil (Holy Spirit) to the 7 lamps (7 spirits) of God.

Scripture confirms scripture, not mans fanciful imaginations.

shturt678s · Jan 12, 2014

InSpiritInTruth said:
In Revelation 11:3-4 we read3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The two Olive trees feed the Oil to the two candlesticks, which in turn lighten His 7 lamps.

Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

And if we back up well see the bigger picture of this, and even the answer to Zechariahs question, who these 2 truly are?

Zechariah 4:1-6
And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

The angel answered Zechariahs question as to who these were, but Zechariah missed it because he asks the angel again in verse 12, and the angel once again tells him these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
And these 2 anointed ones are Gods Word and Spirit, which feed the Oil (Spirit) to the 7 lamps.

Lets take this mystery step by step

First notice the two olive branches feed the oil to the 7 pipes, which light the 7 lamps. (Zech 4:2)

Then notice in Zech 4:10 the angel tells Zechariah that those 7 lamps are the 7 eyes of the Lord.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

But before I go any further let me say this, there is no literal man, or men who is in control of, or even feeds the Oil (Holy Spirit) to the 7 eyes of the Lord.

But lets explore this further.

Notice here the 7 lamps are shown as the 7 spirits of God (7 eyes of the Lord)

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Now here again we are shown the 7 eyes (same as the 7 lamps, which are the 7 spirits of God)
Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

And again we see the angel talking about those 7 lamps (7 eyes / 7 spirits of God) whom the 2 anointed feed the Oil (Spirit) into.

Zechariah 4:10
For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
And then finally we see the One stone (Precious Stone/Rock) on which those 7 eyes (7 spirits of God) would be...

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So you see it is the Lord's Word and Spirit (2 anointed ones) that feed the oil to lighten the 7 lamps ( 7 eyes / 7 spirits of God)
And here we see the One stone that would bear witness of Himself (Word) along with the Fathers (Spirit) who would also bear witness of Him.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

And those who are born of Him, also have this same witness dwelling in themselves.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: ..

Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

Zech.4:11-14: The two are Joshua, the high priest & Zerubbabel, the civil ruler.

Rev.11:3, "two witnesses" = Rev.10:2, "little book" + Rev.11:3, "shall prophesy" (mediate prophets after the 1st century) in the sense of Rom.1:18, ie, not v.16.

Excellent thread,

Old Jack

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 12, 2014

shturt678s said:
Zech.4:11-14: The two are Joshua, the high priest & Zerubbabel, the civil ruler.

Excellent thread,

Old Jack

Why thank you Jack.

Even Joshua and Zerubbabel were given as signs of the 2 witnesses.

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Zerubbabel was the sign of the Governor.

Psalm 22:28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

And then Joshua the sign of the High Priest to come.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

PhillipLaSpino · Jan 12, 2014

So you want to spiritualize? Let's not stop there, let's spiritualize the 144,000, John being taken into heaven, the sealed book, the beast, Satan, and so-forth. And let's not forget to spiritualize the flood, Job's story, Jonah's story, how about spiritualizing the whole Bible! When do we stop?

The method of interpreting the Bible, like all other good things, is liable to abuse; and spiritualizing that which is literal has been and continues to be abused. There are those who apply a spiritual interpretation to a passage before they have gained any true sense of its meaning. In their haste, many tend to spiritualize a prophecy before they understand it. We are not to reject this principle because it is abused; since human errors can never invalidate the truths of God.

The literal sense of scripture is undoubtedly, first in point of nature, as well as in order of importance. And consequently, when investigating the meaning of any passage, this must be made certain before we proceed to search out any mystical importance.

Though the true spiritual sense of a text is to be highly regarded, it by no means follows that we are to look for it in every passage; however, we are not to infer that spiritual interpretations are to be rejected either, although they may not be clearly expressed.

The spiritual meaning of a passage is to be sought only where it is evident, and founded on certain criteria, and that its meaning was designed by the Holy Spirit. The criteria, by which to be sure whether there is a latent spiritual meaning is that it is seated in the text itself.

Two witnesses, in the context of Rev.11 is used in the sense of being a martyr. Both were killed for the sake of the gospel, thus both are martyrs.

Scriptures speak of their (two) dead bodies lying in the street. Sorry, Holy Spirit does not have a physical body, and Christ can not die again, and the church is represented by a spiritual body, not physical, and angels can-not be killed physically and you cant kill the church.

Dead here in Rev.11:8 in the N.T. is applied to a carcass, a corpse. Killed here in the Greek means to be put to death physically! The world will not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. Graves here in Rev.11 means a literal tomb or sepulcher.

So your whole theory of the two witnesses is blown out of the water by the meaning of the key Greek words, and the basic principles used in interpretation, and understanding of the text John used in describing that particular event.

Phil LaSpino

shturt678s · Jan 12, 2014

InSpiritInTruth said:
Why thank you Jack.

Even Joshua and Zerubbabel were given as signs of the 2 witnesses.

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Zerubbabel was the sign of the Governor.

Psalm 22:28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

And then Joshua the sign of the High Priest to come.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Nothing against you or biblegateway, non-modern Lutherans go with a 'sign' in the sense of the two sons of oil (Zech.4:11, 12), "candlestick (Church)," namely, the existing representatives of the priesthood, and the regal gov't., who were at that time Joshua the high priest and the prince Zerubbabel of course. These stand by the Lord of the whole earth, as the divinely appointed instruments through whom the Lord causes His Spirit (oil) to flow into His congregation.

No refute nor correction sir, ie, astonished with your caring so much with what Jesus did at the Cross - shines brightly and only want to help those that care where most could care less in the Church - appalling!

Old Jack,

btw once we dail in Zech. then can move forward? :idea:

btw sorry, Isa.8:18 is sign for Isaiah to refrain from preaching, ie, little different - only trying to help

ebedmelech · Jan 12, 2014

The "two witnesses" have there identity in what is given us in scripture.

The first thing that should come to mind is what God has said about "two witnesses. Deuteronomy 17:6
6 On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

This is involving the eternal destiny of people so God will require that.

Secondly the passage sends us to Zechariah 3 & 4 two understand the two witnesses which are Joshua and Zerubbabel who are commissioned to rebuild the temple.

Joshua needs to be examined in Zechariah 3, because he is wearing filthy garments, and God says out a clean robe and a clean turban on him and then (as required for the high priest), the turban had a gold plate inscribed "Holiness To The Lord" on the front. (This shouldn't be hard to understand)

Thirdly God call them "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" the olive trees supply the oil two the candlesticks, which is Zechariah 4. It would something look like this:

*John has already given us the identity of the candlesticks. They are two churches. Also the candlesticks provide light...and Jesus has told us we are the "light of the world".

Are we getting there?

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 12, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
So you want to spiritualize? Let's not stop there, let's spiritualize the 144,000, John being taken into heaven, the sealed book, the beast, Satan, and so-forth. And let's not forget to spiritualize the flood, Job's story, Jonah's story, how about spiritualizing the whole Bible! When do we stop?

The method of interpreting the Bible, like all other good things, is liable to abuse; and spiritualizing that which is literal has been and continues to be abused. There are those who apply a spiritual interpretation to a passage before they have gained any true sense of its meaning. In their haste, many tend to spiritualize a prophecy before they understand it. We are not to reject this principle because it is abused; since human errors can never invalidate the truths of God.

The literal sense of scripture is undoubtedly, first in point of nature, as well as in order of importance. And consequently, when investigating the meaning of any passage, this must be made certain before we proceed to search out any mystical importance.

Though the true spiritual sense of a text is to be highly regarded, it by no means follows that we are to look for it in every passage; however, we are not to infer that spiritual interpretations are to be rejected either, although they may not be clearly expressed.

The spiritual meaning of a passage is to be sought only where it is evident, and founded on certain criteria, and that its meaning was designed by the Holy Spirit. The criteria, by which to be sure whether there is a latent spiritual meaning is that it is seated in the text itself.

Two witnesses, in the context of Rev.11 is used in the sense of being a martyr. Both were killed for the sake of the gospel, thus both are martyrs.

Scriptures speak of their (two) dead bodies lying in the street. Sorry, Holy Spirit does not have a physical body, and Christ can not die again, and the church is represented by a spiritual body, not physical, and angels can-not be killed physically and you cant kill the church.

Dead here in Rev.11:8 in the N.T. is applied to a carcass, a corpse. Killed here in the Greek means to be put to death physically! The world will not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. Graves here in Rev.11 means a literal tomb or sepulcher.

So your whole theory of the two witnesses is blown out of the water by the meaning of the key Greek words, and the basic principles used in interpretation, and understanding of the text John used in describing that particular event.

Phil LaSpino

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

He that is of the earth, is earthly, and also speaks of the earth, which is what he knows naturally. (as a natural brute beast)

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

But we who are born of God receive not the testimony of men, but rather we speak what we hear and see by the Holy Spirit. For the Lord takes of His own and shows it unto us.

But no man receives the Lords testimony.

John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

New wine must be put into new wine skins.

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 12, 2014

ebedmelech said:
The "two witnesses" have there identity in what is given us in scripture.

The first thing that should come to mind is what God has said about "two witnesses. Deuteronomy 17:6
6 On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

This is involving the eternal destiny of people so God will require that.

Secondly the passage sends us to Zechariah 3 & 4 two understand the two witnesses which are Joshua and Zerubbabel who are commissioned to rebuild the temple.

Joshua needs to be examined in Zechariah 3, because he is wearing filthy garments, and God says out a clean robe and a clean turban on him and then (as required for the high priest), the turban had a gold plate inscribed "Holiness To The Lord" on the front. (This shouldn't be hard to understand)

Thirdly God call them "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" the olive trees supply the oil two the candlesticks, which is Zechariah 4. It would something look like this:

*John has already given us the identity of the candlesticks. They are two churches. Also the candlesticks provide light...and Jesus has told us we are the "light of the world".

Are we getting there?

Exodus 25:31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft,(vine) and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

shturt678s · Jan 12, 2014

ebedmelech said:
The "two witnesses" have there identity in what is given us in scripture.

The first thing that should come to mind is what God has said about "two witnesses. Deuteronomy 17:6
6 On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

This is involving the eternal destiny of people so God will require that.

Secondly the passage sends us to Zechariah 3 & 4 two understand the two witnesses which are Joshua and Zerubbabel who are commissioned to rebuild the temple.

Joshua needs to be examined in Zechariah 3, because he is wearing filthy garments, and God says out a clean robe and a clean turban on him and then (as required for the high priest), the turban had a gold plate inscribed "Holiness To The Lord" on the front. (This shouldn't be hard to understand)

Thirdly God call them "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" the olive trees supply the oil two the candlesticks, which is Zechariah 4. It would something look like this:

*John has already given us the identity of the candlesticks. They are two churches. Also the candlesticks provide light...and Jesus has told us we are the "light of the world".

Are we getting there?

Let's bottom line it right off the bat due to also the importance. Rev.11:4: The speaker now continues in his own words and calls these witnesses "the two olive trees and the two lamp predestals," appropriating the symbolism of Zech.4:3, 11, 14, yet here using two lamp pedestals instead of one.

In Zechariah the olive trees supply the lamps with oil, and in v.14 we learn that the O.T. symbolism pictures "the two sons of oil (anointed ones) that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." One "Witness" is the Lord's prophet-witnesses that are filled with the Holy Spirit who is the divine source of their prophecy and testimony; They are true mediate-prophets of the Lord that bring forth a Rom.1:18 kind of message being the other Witness (contents of that "little book" of Rev.10:2).

These are the two Witnesses of Rev.11:4, ie, they just bring forth a message what most don't want to hear from that "little book" as too uncomfortable and inconvenient for them.

Old Jack, ie, now we're all heading there :o

ebedmelech · Jan 12, 2014

InSpiritInTruth said:
Exodus 25:31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft,(vine) and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

No problem here the candlestick will provide light in the temple.

InSpiritInTruth said:
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Not in view when it comes to Revelation 11. Jesus is giving a totally different view here. This is declaring the importance of abiding in Christ. It speaks nothing of candlesticks nor olive trees. It doesn't belong. The point is olive trees or branches. What we have here is a grapevine in view.

InSpiritInTruth said:
Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Once again your comparison is not proper. Jesus is IN THE MIDST of the candlesticks. That shows Christ as the overseer! In Revelation 11 you are given exactly where to go to identify the two witnesses. John sends us to Zechariah...and we do well to do that. John said in Revelation 11:4:
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

In Zechariah 4:11-14 we find the EXACT phraseology. When John has given us the "type" we do well to stay within it.

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 12, 2014

Christ is the anointing Oil in our midst, the Light that lightens our lamps so we can see. If you have no Oil in your lamp, then you cannot see.

ebedmelech · Jan 12, 2014

InSpiritInTruth said:
Christ is the anointing Oil in our midst, the Light that lightens our lamps so we can see. If you have no Oil in your lamp, then you cannot see.

Actually no! Christ is NEVER symbolized as oil...the Holy Spirit is!

I don't get why you keep going away from what John gives us to understand this.

Did you even read Zechariah 4? If you did you missed Zechariah 4:6:
6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of hosts.

See how it works when you listen to what John provides? It's the Holy Spirit!!!

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 12, 2014

ebedmelech said:
Actually no! Christ is NEVER symbolized as oil...the Holy Spirit is!

I don't get why you keep going away from what John gives us to understand this.

Did you even read Zechariah 4? If you did you missed Zechariah 4:6:
6 Then he said to me, This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.

See how it works when you listen to what John provides? It's the Holy Spirit!!!

Gods Word is Spirit and is Life. (2 bear witness of the Father)

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The two witnesses

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Bible2

Guest

Noahide/Rationalist

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Achieve; don’t plunder!

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Well-Known Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Well-Known Member

Similar threads