The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls

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The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 vials were all God's wrath against that wicked generation of Israel, Revelation's "7's" are OT references. This time it is against Israel. Each "7" is a repeat of the same calamity on that generation, just with some added details & players.

Only the remnant of Israel was saved from the destruction & judgment of Israel in AD70..

Jerusalem that was in bondage with her children is proved by Paul in Galatians, of the Jerusalem "which now is" - (in his present time, about AD56)

The synagogue of Satan Jews were "mystery Babylon"

They were destroyed in AD70.

The great tribulation is over. God had the Romans shatter the former "holy people"

Let's concentrate & work on today & a better tomorrow.

And preach the Good News of salvation in Christ to the lost.

vinsight4u said in post 142:

No man can enter into the temple in heaven - unless the seven plagues are over.

Where are men in Rev. 7?
in His temple

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Revelation 15:8 doesn't mean that no man had been in the temple building in heaven up to that time.

Instead, Revelation 15:8b simply means that at that time the people already in the temple building in heaven (e.g. Revelation 7:9,14,15, Revelation 15:2) will have to exit it temporarily, and won't be allowed back in until the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of wrath of Revelation chapters 15-16 are over. The people in the temple building in heaven in Revelation 7:9,14,15 will have been there for years before the 7 vials even start. For Revelation 7 is after only the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12), and before the 7th seal and the subsequent events of the first 6 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2) up to Revelation 9:19. And it's only after all those events that the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign will begin, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14. And it's only after that time period that the 7 vials will come.

coraline said:

The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 vials were all God's wrath against that wicked generation of Israel, Revelation's "7's" are OT references. This time it is against Israel. Each "7" is a repeat of the same calamity on that generation, just with some added details & players.

Only the remnant of Israel was saved from the destruction & judgment of Israel in AD70..

Jerusalem that was in bondage with her children is proved by Paul in Galatians, of the Jerusalem "which now is" - (in his present time, about AD56)

The synagogue of Satan Jews were "mystery Babylon"

They were destroyed in AD70.

The great tribulation is over. God had the Romans shatter the former "holy people"

Let's concentrate & work on today & a better tomorrow.

And preach the Good News of salvation in Christ to the lost.

Click to expand...

Everyone knows the temple was destroyed by Ardjion the Great, he was the only human in the world to ride a pink Unicorn into battle..

It is said, that any direction he rode, whilst pointing his Unicorn in that direction, would level cities at a glance.

In 1986 and archeologist found a horseshoe in Eastern Europe bearing the Mark "Ardjion the Great, aka 666"

Upon hearing this news..



Do you see where I am going with this??

You are making claims, but they are as an empty box. On the outside, I know what the claim is, but when I delve deeper to see the contents I find nothing..


Typically you would cite your response with evidence. Doesnt mean you have proof, but at least submit your evidence in order to support your position.

When debating for example, we cite and reference the material we are affirming as factual, or at least presenting it as evidence..

coraline said:

The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 vials were all God's wrath against that wicked generation of Israel, Revelation's "7's" are OT references. This time it is against Israel. Each "7" is a repeat of the same calamity on that generation, just with some added details & players.

Only the remnant of Israel was saved from the destruction & judgment of Israel in AD70..

Jerusalem that was in bondage with her children is proved by Paul in Galatians, of the Jerusalem "which now is" - (in his present time, about AD56)

The synagogue of Satan Jews were "mystery Babylon"

They were destroyed in AD70.

The great tribulation is over. God had the Romans shatter the former "holy people"

Let's concentrate & work on today & a better tomorrow.

And preach the Good News of salvation in Christ to the lost.

Click to expand...

BEWARE, readers, this post is total MYTH, except the last two lines.

"Mystery Babylon" will be the city of Jerusalem during the time the Leopard Beast and false prophet are deceiving the ENTIRE WORLD from the temple there. The days of great tribulation will take place at the same time; the 42 months of authority given to the Beast. This time is certainly in our near future.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

BEWARE, readers, this post is total MYTH, except the last two lines.

"Mystery Babylon" will be the city of Jerusalem during the time the Leopard Beast and false prophet are deceiving the ENTIRE WORLD from the temple there. The days of great tribulation will take place at the same time; the 42 months of authority given to the Beast. This time is certainly in our near future.

LAMAD

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vinsight4u said:

Take a look at the very end of Rev. 15. Stop and ponder - just how did John know what happens at the end of seven plagues if those plagues don't happen until Rev. 16.

summary
15 - till the seven plagues - are done

No man can enter into the temple in heaven - unless the seven plagues are over.

Where are men in Rev. 7?
in His temple

Okay, now - What are the plagues that Rev. 15 is referring to that must end before men can enter into the temple in heaven?

the seven plagues of the seven angels

But what seven plagues are these?
Are they in the vials full?
no
They are the ones that the seven angels already had when they came out of the temple in heaven.

John did not say the the vials had to be over.
John links that set of plagues that has to end first - as to the seven plagues of the seven angels.

We know they do not only have seven plagues, because before they came from the temple in heaven, they were shown with plagues in Rev. 15:1.
That set is the one that happens at the very last of the sets of 7 plagues.

Rev. 15:1 - shows the seven last plagues
Rev. 15 continues to when the angels gain seven more plagues
and seven full vials

21 plagues

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Rev.15:5, "....Sanctuary (not the inferior "Temple") of the Tabernacle of the Testimony in the heaven...." naos, the Holy and the Holy of Holies, which symbolizes (signified in Rev.1:1) that these last plagues are sent from the very holiness of God. The Tabernacle testified to the holy presence of God among Israel in the wilderness and thus in symbolism becomes God's heavenly seat of presence for the heavenly worship of the Saints.

V.6, "....out of the Sanctuary,...." These angels bear the plagues out of the Sanctuary, ie, no bullding with pillers and courtyards, etc.

Not the hammer, ie, v.8, "....Sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the Sanctuary..." The act of the transfer was completed. "And filled was the Sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God..." So it happened in the vision of Isaiah (6:4) when this prophet was sent by God to bring judgment to Israel (6:9-12).

The hammer falls with Satan personally loosed (we so close where most think it's all grace and mercy). The smoke helps to symbolize the fact that ALL the work of grace of the Living God and of His Sanctuary has been completed, and that only the last plagues remain that are now swiftly to be finished.

Humble pie Jack

vinsight4u said:

The beast out of the pit will slay the two witnesses near the end of the trib time, just a bit before the 7th trumpet sounds.

Rev. 12, 13 and 15 happen earlier than when they are placed in Revelation.

The kingdom comes in Rev. 7- as Jesus takes back Jerusalem.
The kingdom is yet to come in Rev. 12.

Isaiah 31:7-8
"For in that day every man shall cast away his idols..."
"Then shall the Assyrian fall...he shall flee from the sword..."

Isaiah 2:20
"In that day a man shall cast away his idols.."
"To go into the clefts of the rocks,...for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

At the time of Him coming in glory, is when we shall be like Him.

6th seal -

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Readers beware, this writer does not understand John's chronology. All five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, given in days, months and years, INCLUDING the 1260 days of testifying by the two witnesses, will go from the midpoint to the END of the week, or from near the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint to the 7th vial that ends the week. Verses 11:4 - 11:13 are written as a parenthesis, a brief view of the last half of the week for the two witnesses only, and has no bearing on Revelation's Chronology.

John's chronology is as follows:

11:1 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet that divides the week.
11:2 The man of sin with his Gentile armies arrive in Jerusalem
11:3 A few seconds after, the two witnesses show up in Jerusalem.

11:14-19 take place at the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven when the abomination takes place on earth.

12:1-5 is written as a parentheses....no bearing on Chronology.
12:1-5 show how the dragon attempted to Kill Jesus as an infant.

12:6 is only a few seconds after the abomination: those in Judea fleeing
12:7 the battle in heaven will begin one instant after the 7th trumpet.

13: these events start AFTER the midpoint

THIS is true chronology and the intent of the Author when He inspired John to write.

LAMAD

vinsight4u said:

Take a look at the very end of Rev. 15. Stop and ponder - just how did John know what happens at the end of seven plagues if those plagues don't happen until Rev. 16.

summary
15 - till the seven plagues - are done

No man can enter into the temple in heaven - unless the seven plagues are over.

Where are men in Rev. 7?
in His temple

Okay, now - What are the plagues that Rev. 15 is referring to that must end before men can enter into the temple in heaven?

the seven plagues of the seven angels

But what seven plagues are these?
Are they in the vials full?
no
They are the ones that the seven angels already had when they came out of the temple in heaven.

John did not say the the vials had to be over.
John links that set of plagues that has to end first - as to the seven plagues of the seven angels.

We know they do not only have seven plagues, because before they came from the temple in heaven, they were shown with plagues in Rev. 15:1.
That set is the one that happens at the very last of the sets of 7 plagues.

Rev. 15:1 - shows the seven last plagues
Rev. 15 continues to when the angels gain seven more plagues
and seven full vials

21 plagues

Click to expand...

Let's look at what confuses you so much:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


Does John "know" what will happen during the pouring out of the 7 vials at this point in time? Of course he does, for he did not write until AFTER he had seen the entire vision. Do you understand that? John saw the vision of the vials poured out, and saw and heard everything right up to the end of the book BEFORE he wrote the book. So he included this little bit of knowledge here ahead of the fact. It is also very possible an angel SPOKE this information but John did not record it.



I urge you to STOP REARRANGING! You don't have authority to do so, and it is no different than adding to or taking away. You are CHANGING the book. STOP IT! John wrote with GOD GIVEN chronology, and I can assure you, it does not need to be rearranged.



ANY need to rearrange is immediately suspect and WILL BE PROVEN WRONG!



Do you just want to be wrong? Why?



6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.


Here the seven angels have just been given their assignment: so NO PLAGUES have been accomplished yet.


7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Now they have been given the vials of wrath associated with each plague. NO vials have been poured out and NO PLAGUES have taken place yet! They have not yet left heaven on their assignments.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

This rule will start HERE, not several chapters before. It is not written, but understood, all in the temple must leave the temple and cannot return until all 7 plagues with associated vials have been accomplished. So after Rev. 16 people can again enter the temple. Just a hint: in chapters 1-14, people COULD enter the temple, for this rule was not yet started. There is simply NO NEED to rearrange. Understand, if you feel the need to rearrange, it is your THEORY that is wrong, not the book.

LAMAD

vinsight4u said:

The 4th seal rider/s have several ways to kill people. This is an OT key that this is the time to scatter Israel.

When Nebuchadnezzar scattered Israel, Babylon came as with sword, famine and pestilence.

)When the fourth seal rider/s come - they kill with sword, hunger, death, and beasts of the earth.


When Nebuchadnezzar was to scatter the Jews - he came at four corners time.

)When Rev. 7 begins - four angels stand on the four corners.


John was shown the first six seals, and then had visions revealed to him to give the finer details as to what will go on up to the end of the 6th seal.

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You have very little understanding of these seals. First understand, the first few seals were broken in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended into the throne room.

Seal #1 is to represent the CHURCH of Jesus Christ, sent out to make disciples of all nations. OF COURSE conquering and overcoming had to take place, for these nations of the world belonged to the devil. He was not going to just step aside and allow the church easy access. No, many were killed to advance the Word of God into new nations.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's feeble attempt to STOP the advance of the church. God restrained them in their field of operation to ONLY 1/4 of the world. We can be SURE that 1/4 would be centered in Jerusalem, where the church started, so would included most of Europe and Africa. John shows us these three ride together, the Red, the Black and the Pale, to kill with the sword, with hunger, and with "death" such as the bubonic plague that killed 30% to 60% of Europe's population at that time.

The church broke out of that area and is now in every nation of the world. Satan failed, as usual.

The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait for the END of the church age, which will end at the 6th seal.

We are now waiting on the rapture of the church and the 6th seal.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

Readers beware, this writer does not understand John's chronology.

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On the positive note, no one really cares (only a few out of 300 million in this nation for sure) - readers that is. On the negative, not chronolgical from the ancient's way of viewing Revelation, ie, in the English structure of thoughts, your correct "chronological."

[All five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, given in days, months and years, INCLUDING the 1260 days of testifying by the two witnesses, will go from the midpoint to the END of the week, or from near the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint to the 7th vial that ends the week. Verses 11:4 - 11:13 are written as a parenthesis, a brief view of the last half of the week for the two witnesses only, and has no bearing on Revelation's Chronology.

John's chronology is as follows:

11:1 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet that divides the week.
11:2 The man of sin with his Gentile armies arrive in Jerusalem
11:3 A few seconds after, the two witnesses show up in Jerusalem.

11:14-19 take place at the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven when the abomination takes place on earth.

12:1-5 is written as a parentheses....no bearing on Chronology.
12:1-5 show how the dragon attempted to Kill Jesus as an infant.

12:6 is only a few seconds after the abomination: those in Judea fleeing
12:7 the battle in heaven will begin one instant after the 7th trumpet.

13: these events start AFTER the midpoint

THIS is true chronology and the intent of the Author when He inspired John to write.

LAMAD

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Simply Rev.11:3 begins at Lk.21:24 (70 A.D.) to the "1" "one" "uno" Parousia.

Your friend,

Humble pie Jack

shturt678 said:

On the positive note, no one really cares (only a few out of 300 million in this nation for sure) - readers that is. On the negative, not chronolgical from the ancient's way of viewing Revelation, ie, in the English structure of thoughts, your correct "chronological."



Simply Rev.11:3 begins at Lk.21:24 (70 A.D.) to the "1" "one" "uno" Parousia.

Your friend,

Humble pie Jack

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Humble pie Jack, ie, big deal!

shturt678 said:

On the positive note, no one really cares (only a few out of 300 million in this nation for sure) - readers that is. On the negative, not chronolgical from the ancient's way of viewing Revelation, ie, in the English structure of thoughts, your correct "chronological."



Simply Rev.11:3 begins at Lk.21:24 (70 A.D.) to the "1" "one" "uno" Parousia.

Your friend,

Humble pie Jack

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You are dreaming, Jack. If you choose to stay behind at the pretrib rapture, and I believe that is your plan, you will see this play out, in the same order John wrote it. You will know the week has started when the first trumpet judgment hits. Then you can guess it will be about 1260 days to the midpoint. As Paul has taught us, once you see the man of sin revealed as the BEAST, then you will KNOW the Day of the Lord has started. From the point of the pretrib rapture on, the only way into heaven is to deny the mark, and lose your head.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

You are dreaming, Jack. If you choose to stay behind at the pretrib rapture, and I believe that is your plan, you will see this play out, in the same order John wrote it. You will know the week has started when the first trumpet judgment hits. Then you can guess it will be about 1260 days to the midpoint. As Paul has taught us, once you see the man of sin revealed as the BEAST, then you will KNOW the Day of the Lord has started. From the point of the pretrib rapture on, the only way into heaven is to deny the mark, and lose your head.

LAMAD

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Im actually one of those Christians who wants to be here to spread the Gospel, lead others and help them come to Christ.

Christ died for me... Why not die for him?


You cant fear death before God, and if you fear God, what is death???

However, I dont think I will have a choice in the matter, lol..

I cant ultimately give anyone the oil from my lamp...

iamlamad said in post 155:

If you choose to stay behind at the pretrib rapture, and I believe that is your plan, you will see this play out, in the same order John wrote it.

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Regarding "If you choose to stay behind", are you thinking of those people who will be "left" in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, note that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 155:

If you choose to stay behind at the pretrib rapture, and I believe that is your plan, you will see this play out, in the same order John wrote it.

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Regarding "the pretrib rapture", note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 155:

If you choose to stay behind at the pretrib rapture, and I believe that is your plan, you will see this play out, in the same order John wrote it.

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Regarding "I believe that is your plan", note that no Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

iamlamad said in post 155:

You will know the week has started when the first trumpet judgment hits.

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Regarding "the first trumpet judgment", note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's judgment or wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

iamlamad said in post 155:

As Paul has taught us, once you see the man of sin revealed as the BEAST, then you will KNOW the Day of the Lord has started.

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Actually, Paul didn't teach that. Instead, the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

xXChristPeripheralXx said:

Im actually one of those Christians who wants to be here to spread the Gospel, lead others and help them come to Christ.

Christ died for me... Why not die for him?


You cant fear death before God, and if you fear God, what is death???

However, I dont think I will have a choice in the matter, lol..

I cant ultimately give anyone the oil from my lamp...

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Exactly! And the will of our Father is that we are there at the Marriage and Supper of the Lamb.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

Exactly! And the will of our Father is that we are there at the Marriage and Supper of the Lamb.

LAMAD

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Yessir, I dont have any control over that.. But Ive already accepted that Im willing to die for Jesus Christ, so whether I die or get translated to Heaven, I win, lol..

Bible2 wrote,
Regarding "If you choose to stay behind", are you thinking of those people who will be "left" in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, note that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

No, I was MOST CERTAINLY NOT thinking of any verse in the gospels. Why would ANYONE think Paul's rapture would be written in the Gospels? Paul alone received the revelation of the rapture. Can you understand, the church, the body of the Christ, did not even exist in the gospels. And when Jesus taught about the end, it was NOT about the end of the church age, but about the end of THEIR age, the age they were living in, still the OLD COVENANT.

Bible2, did you never read?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Can you see "body of Christ" in this sentence? WHO is "Daniel's people?" Of course the very same people that put Jesus on the cross. This is not in any possible way speaking of the body of Christ on earth. We, the church, are of a special dispensation that started at Pentecost. But even that part of the body of Christ, made up of Jews, died out, and Paul's church took over, the Gentile church. Yes, I know there are some completed Jews today.

Did you never notice the DIFFERENCE between what Peter taught and what Paul taught? The message to the Jews, from all the 12, was this: "BELIEVE that Jesus was and is your Messiah! Repent and be baptized."

Yet Paul wrote (for the Gentiles) "God did not send me to baptize." Paul's gospel is to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus to be born again.

When the pretrib rapture ENDS the age of grace we live in, then Daniel's FINAL or 70th week will END the Old Covenant.

Mistake #2 for you: FAILURE to recognize Jesus will come next FOR His bride, and then again after 7 years WITH His bride. He already came once: so His "second" coming will be PRETRIB FOR his bride. His third coming will be after the 70th week, and after the marriage and supper WITH His bride.

If you continue to ignore this truth of scripture, you will most certainly be LEFT BEHIND at Paul's rapture, and will face both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. That is, IF you survive the "sudden destruction" that will come one instant after Paul's rapture. From that point on, the only way you will see heaven is if you refuse the mark and lose your head.

Mistake #3 for you: even imagining that you will survive the 70th week when God told you TWICE that He (God) is giving the Beast the power to OVERCOME you. Just so you don't miss it, this means you will lose your head, or you will succumb to hunger and thirst and take the mark and be doomed. DON'T OVERLOOK those verses (God breathed) that say the Beast will be given power to OVERCOME the saints.

Mistake #4 for you: The verses you are looking at are NOT Paul's rapture, but rather, the parable of the tares playing out. God will send His angels to take every wicked person off His planet - probably the moment Jesus hits the atmosphere on His descent on the white horse. Bible2, you have to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of Truth.

LAMAD