Why do certain denominations NOT agree with Sola Fide (through faith alone)

Because of Satan!

The main denominations that don't agree with Sola Fide are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

In reality this is a slight difference in how we look at the faith/works relationship.

We would say that true faith produces good works in the person. Because of your faith you will WANT to help others in one way or another.

Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox seem to hold that one can have true faith but at the same time decide to do nothing about it. But that you have to produce the works and the faith.

Personally I prefer the simplicity of Sola Fide. Roman Catholic views on salvation are so nuanced, that it seems impossible to even know if you yourself are saved, much less be able to have any guess about others.

Then you have to throw Puragtory into that and you pretty much have no idea where you are going.

The unconditional freeness of the God's love and forgiveness can be hard for people to accept. Lutheran theologian Gerhard Forde argued that this is what led to the crucifixion: "Surely the truth is that Jesus was killed because he forgave sins and claimed either explicitly or implicitly to do it in the name of God, his Father." (quoted from Caught in the Act: Reflections on the Work of Christ)

Parogar said:

Speaking of purgatory, I've never once seen that word (or anything even alluding to the existing of such a place) mentioned in the bible.

Isn't it a sin to claim that something of the sort exists if it's not in the bible?

For example, if I started going around telling everyone that Jesus said something he didn't, wouldn't that be a grave sin?

If so, what justification is there for inventing a third place of afterlife that is never mentioned in the bible?

Why do Roman Catholics even bother to worship Jesus if they don't actually believe or put stock into anything he even says?

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Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Bibles contain a few books not found in Protestant Bibles. One of said books is Maccabees II and in Chapter 12 therein is a reference to Jews offering sacrifices for the dead. Catholics believe that this is evidence for Purgatory. While Orthodox deny Purgatory, they do believe in an intermediate state and that prayers for the dead can assist them while they are in this intermediate state. You also have quotes from some of the Early Church Fathers which support prayers for the dead. Finally, some claim that there is a reference in one of Paul's letters to support the practice, namely 2 Timothy 1:18, though this appears to be a matter of interpretation.

Even though I was raised a Protestant and still consider myself a Protestant, I do believe that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are correct re: the importance of praying for the dead. Having said that, I believe that the Catholic practice of Mass cards and in effect, indirectly paying to pray for the dead, is ill advised. Nevertheless, I think the vast majority of Protestantism is wrong when it teaches that prayers for the dead are meaningless. Even Luther said that it was acceptable to pray for the dead once or twice. (Based upon a previous conversation about this topic on this board.) Now Luther might have been absolutely correct, but I suppose a Catholic or Orthodox could ask, if it is ok to pray once or twice for a dead loved one, why not three times or four times or five times, etc?

I do not know what to make of the situation. However, I tend to think that there probably is some sort of intermediate state to which most people go after death. Still, the truth of the matter is that none of us can know with certainty. Only God knows the particulars of the afterlife and even if there is an intermediate state, we should all realize that the possibility of eternity in Hell still exists.

It's so refreshing to see someone who admits they don't understand instead of people who claim to know the answers and then try to fit "religion" into what they have decided already.

People do refer to themselves as Christians with the purpose of putting a person at ease so they can loot and pillage. A person who is really loud about their Christianity unfortunately always raises my suspicions because I've had so many bad experiences with people like that.

On to your question. There are three groups.
Those who hold to faith alone.
Those who hold to faith plus works.
Those who claim to hold to faith alone but do not.

Faith alone is Jesus plus nothing. We do not save ourselves we do not earn our salvation. Instead we dead people receive salvation through nothing we did or earned.

Faith plus works generally comes down to some spark brings one to life to the extent they can then perfect that spark to actually receive salvation. Purgatory is really just a if you didn't perfect in this life there is still time, assuming you did not die with mortal sin, to perfect it in the next.

The third groups is very common. The say faith alone but do not hold to it.
For instance ask them if an infant can have faith. You will likely be told no, it is impossible. Ask them if an infant can be saved. They will likely tell you all infants are saved because they have not reached an age of accountability. Ask them if one is saved by faith alone, they will say of course. So they reject faith as saving infants but say they hold to faith alone. They at the very least have set up multiple paths to heaven.

Those who hold to faith alone do not believe in multiple paths. Can and infant have saving faith, yes, how is the infant saved, through faith. How can an infant have faith? Same way as anyone else, the saving does not depend on the person it depends on Jesus.

You see the multiple path people will often keep baptizing themselves. They are concerned often that something about them, like they didn't really understand or didn't have what they think is enough faith or something, invalidated that baptism. Of course they say the baptism doesn't do anything anyway, but they get really concerned about it must be done right in their mind. Of course they say it's an ordinance.

Well does the law bring life or death. Death. Always and only. So baptism becomes an ordinance or law can only bring death, not life. But if baptism is something God does to you and it's the Gospel, then baptism is life.

So you've hit on a real key thing, really goes right to the Gospel, and the Law and how they work, and ultimately wrong positions turn to the Law as the way to salvation. Or confuse the Gospel as being Law.

Luther073082 said:

The main denominations that don't agree with Sola Fide are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

In reality this is a slight difference in how we look at the faith/works relationship.

We would say that true faith produces good works in the person. Because of your faith you will WANT to help others in one way or another.

Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox seem to hold that one can have true faith but at the same time decide to do nothing about it. But that you have to produce the works and the faith.

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If you dont mind me saying a few words, and I dont intend to debate but rather just explain that the EO has a different view of a number of critical issues which makes the Western view of the atonement foreign to us, so the Solas just dont make sense in our view of salvation. For example, Augustine plays no role in our theology as his works were never translated into Greek until the 14th century (Ill have to research that again but that era sounds right). The theological paradigm of the Latins leans towards a courtroom while for us Greeks it is closer to the medical practice.

BigNorsk said:

It's so refreshing to see someone who admits they don't understand instead of people who claim to know the answers and then try to fit "religion" into what they have decided already.

People do refer to themselves as Christians with the purpose of putting a person at ease so they can loot and pillage. A person who is really loud about their Christianity unfortunately always raises my suspicions because I've had so many bad experiences with people like that.

On to your question. There are three groups.
Those who hold to faith alone.
Those who hold to faith plus works.
Those who claim to hold to faith alone but do not.

Faith alone is Jesus plus nothing. We do not save ourselves we do not earn our salvation. Instead we dead people receive salvation through nothing we did or earned.

Faith plus works generally comes down to some spark brings one to life to the extent they can then perfect that spark to actually receive salvation. Purgatory is really just a if you didn't perfect in this life there is still time, assuming you did not die with mortal sin, to perfect it in the next.

The third groups is very common. The say faith alone but do not hold to it.
For instance ask them if an infant can have faith. You will likely be told no, it is impossible. Ask them if an infant can be saved. They will likely tell you all infants are saved because they have not reached an age of accountability. Ask them if one is saved by faith alone, they will say of course. So they reject faith as saving infants but say they hold to faith alone. They at the very least have set up multiple paths to heaven.

Those who hold to faith alone do not believe in multiple paths. Can and infant have saving faith, yes, how is the infant saved, through faith. How can an infant have faith? Same way as anyone else, the saving does not depend on the person it depends on Jesus.

You see the multiple path people will often keep baptizing themselves. They are concerned often that something about them, like they didn't really understand or didn't have what they think is enough faith or something, invalidated that baptism. Of course they say the baptism doesn't do anything anyway, but they get really concerned about it must be done right in their mind. Of course they say it's an ordinance.

Well does the law bring life or death. Death. Always and only. So baptism becomes an ordinance or law can only bring death, not life. But if baptism is something God does to you and it's the Gospel, then baptism is life.

So you've hit on a real key thing, really goes right to the Gospel, and the Law and how they work, and ultimately wrong positions turn to the Law as the way to salvation. Or confuse the Gospel as being Law.

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Purgatory is a process (not really an actual place) of purification where Saints who still has taint of sin (post baptism) gets them purged. It is not a place of second chance nor an in between place for good people who aren't Christians.

Parogar said:

It logically makes absolutely no sense to pray for the dead if you really think about it.

I mean, would someone who was otherwise NOT going to be saved suddenly get saved because we prayed for them? If that is the case, then if two people have equally been judged by God to go to hell, but one of them was fortunate to leave behind loved ones who prayed for this person, would God, whom we must trust to be the ultimate being of fairness and justice, condemn one and not the other?

Also, I don't like this thing you're saying about Catholics adding stuff to the bible. Rubs me the wrong way.

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Prayer for the dead is a prayer of hope as they await judgment. We pray that God will be both just and merciful.

Catholics didn't add books to the Bible. The Latin Vulgate though using Hebrew manuscripts still followed the older Greek ones which contained books not found in the Jewish Tanakh.

Basil the Great said:

Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Bibles contain a few books not found in Protestant Bibles. One of said books is Maccabees II and in Chapter 12 therein is a reference to Jews offering sacrifices for the dead.

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Parogar said:

Also, I don't like this thing you're saying about Catholics adding stuff to the bible. Rubs me the wrong way.

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WisdomTree said:

Catholics didn't add books to the Bible. The Latin Vulgate though using Hebrew manuscripts still followed the older Greek ones which contained books not found in the Jewish Tanakh.

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Here in Finland, we don't have a "Roman Catholic Bible" or a "Eastern Orthodox Bible" or a "Evangelical Lutheran Bible". Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran Christians all use the same Finnish and Swedish translations of the Bible, which contain the Deuterocanonical books including the said Maccabees. As noted, it most emphatically is not about "Catholics adding stuff to the Bible".

That logic is flawed, just take a similar example: "Considering that God knows everything that will happen, praying to God in general doesn't make sense. After all ,most people pray for God seemingly to change his mind[/]".

As has been said before elsewhere, almost all Christians pray for the dead, in one manner or another. It may not be as explicit as some Catholic practices, but it is almost always there.

Parogar said:

It logically makes absolutely no sense to pray for the dead if you really think about it.

I mean, would someone who was otherwise NOT going to be saved suddenly get saved because we prayed for them? If that is the case, then if two people have equally been judged by God to go to hell, but one of them was fortunate to leave behind loved ones who prayed for this person, would God, whom we must trust to be the ultimate being of fairness and justice, condemn one and not the other?

Also, I don't like this thing you're saying about Catholics adding stuff to the bible. Rubs me the wrong way.

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It is not easy to argue with your thesis, as it is a powerful statement. Should a person's eternal fate really hinge upon prayers being offered up for them after they have died? As I understand the theology of some in this matter, it seems to be tied to the fact that God exists outside of time and space as we know it. Apparently some believe that prayers offered up for a deceased person can somehow miraculously be applied "retroactively" to their benefit before they actually do leave this world. Perhaps enough prayers for a deceased person who is apparently bound for Hell from our vantage point, might miraculously be the reason why a soul gets right with God at the moment of their death? I hasten to add that this is NOT Catholic theology, but appears to be the theology of some Eastern Orthodox, though by no means all EO and quite probably even a minority of EO? I read recently where the Coptic Church (Oriental Orthodox) has dropped the prayers from their liturgy which ask God to help those in Hades/Hell, as they do not believe that souls destined for Hell can receive benefit from such prayers. (Obviously they must have once believed such to be the case or why would such prayers have been in their liturgy for many centuries?)

I have read up a lot regarding St. Basil's Third Kneeling Prayer which is used every year at Pentecost by the Eastern Orthodox. There seems to be some confusion and possibly disagreement as to exactly the intent of the prayer, at least from what I have read. Please correct me any EO posters if I am totally wrong re: said apparent confusion. Whether or not the prayer asks God to save souls bound for Hell is questionable, though some seem to think that it might do so. However, at the very least, it appears that the intent of the St. Basil's prayer is to ask God to lessen the sufferings of those in Hell/bound for Hell. Now even if classic Protestant/Catholic theology and perhaps even the majority Eastern Orthodox view is correct, that a soul's eternal destiny is set at time of death, might it still not be possible that prayers for loved ones in Hell/bound for Hell might cause God to lighten their pain?

Now I am not stating here that I believe any of this or that I don't believe it. Quite frankly, I honestly do not know how prayers might or might not help deceased loved ones. All I can say is that prayers for the dead can be traced back to the days of the Early Church. Hence, at the very least, I think we can say that there is nothing wrong in praying for the dead. As to how much value there is in the practice, such is known only to God. However, I will say that for a Christian who has a loved one commit suicide or for a Christian who loses a loved one who never accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord, belief in the power of prayer to somehow, someway assist their dead family member, could at the very least bring a measure of peace and comfort to the living Christian.

I did a little more investigation on the subject last night and discovered that when the Church of England took over in England, prayers for the dead were gradually eliminated. However, in recent decades, there has been a movement on the part of some within the Anglican Communion to reinstate prayers for the dead. Perhaps our Anglican friends can enlighten us more on this matter? I also read on a Catholic website last night about a well known German Lutheran minister who openly prayed for the dead during services. How common such a practice might be in Europe I do not know, but I would be very surprised to hear about any Lutheran minister in America praying for the dead during church services.

Parogar said:

Where in the bible does it say this? Do quote the passage, please. Because I've googled this, and there is NOTHING in the bible that says this.

Seriously, go ahead and quote where it says this. I've read the Maccabees quote that everyone claims is proof. This one: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”"

^^ This can mean literally anything. To say that this is proof of another place to go after death ... not to mention (if this is really even biblical canon, which I don't think it is) Jesus made a new covenant, overwriting this anyway!

The way to get into heaven changed with Jesus. Through faith and faith in him alone, that then became the way into heaven. Not through purgatory, and certainly not based on a non-canon document that has been interpreted in ways that are ridiculous to begin with!!!

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"each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." - First Corinthians 3:13-15

The bolded section is what Catholics believe to be the process of Purgatory.

Basil the Great said:

I have read up a lot regarding St. Basil's Third Kneeling Prayer which is used every year at Pentecost by the Eastern Orthodox. There seems to be some confusion and possibly disagreement as to exactly the intent of the prayer, at least from what I have read. Please correct me any EO posters if I am totally wrong re: said apparent confusion. Whether or not the prayer asks God to save souls bound for Hell is questionable, though some seem to think that it might do so. However, at the very least, it appears that the intent of the St. Basil's prayer is to ask God to lessen the sufferings of those in Hell/bound for Hell. Now even if classic Protestant/Catholic theology and perhaps even the majority Eastern Orthodox view is correct, that a soul's eternal destiny is set at time of death, might it still not be possible that prayers for loved ones in Hell/bound for Hell might cause God to lighten their pain?

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I looked over the prayers (in English) and they reference "Hades", not Hell. Hades is the condition of being dead as Fr. Thomas Hopko makes clear from this podcast (this is the link to the text):

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_descent_of_jesus_into_hades

GreekOrthodox said:

I looked over the prayers (in English) and they reference "Hades", not Hell. Hades is the condition of being dead as Fr. Thomas Hopko makes clear from this podcast (this is the link to the text):

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_descent_of_jesus_into_hades

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The Finnish (Orthodox) translation of the St. Basil's prayer translates Hades as "Tuonela", as in the Kalevala, which is indeed not "Hell" but more like the house of dead, a realm of shadows, or a place similar to Valhalla.

GreekOrthodox said:

I looked over the prayers (in English) and they reference "Hades", not Hell. Hades is the condition of being dead as Fr. Thomas Hopko makes clear from this podcast (this is the link to the text):

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_descent_of_jesus_into_hades

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You could well be correct. However, even if St. Basil's Third Kneeling prayer is not for those now in Hell, it would appear to apply to souls either destined for Hell at the Last Judgment or for those souls captive in what later became known as the Catholic Purgatory. I do not know any other way to interpret the intent of his prayer: "Who also, on this all-perfect and saving feast, are graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hell/hades (sometimes translated hell, sometimes hades, depending upon the website), granting us a great hope of improvement for those who are imprisoned from the defilements which have imprisoned them and that Thou wilt send down thy consolation."

Now it certainly does not sound like these souls are simply in hades and experiencing a foretaste of Heaven, where it is expected they will go at the Last Judgment. No way. Obviously St. Basil wants prayers for those souls who are imprisoned in a rather unpleasant state due to their sins. That much is clear, but beyond that I do not think it possible to know the exact condition of the souls he is referring to. Are they presently destined for an eternity in Hell, when God issues their final Judgement? Are they souls bound eventually for Heaven, but now trapped in the Catholic Purgatory and thus experiencing some form of purging of their sins? Personally, I lean toward the first option, but he could well be referring to a state that later became known as Purgatory. Obviously since the EO Church does not believe in Purgatory, I suppose EO theologians do not believe that St. Basil was referring to souls in Purgatory. Hence, what else could he have possibly been referring to except souls in hades who are currently destined for Hell at the Last Judgment, unless something changes their destination, though his prayer does not seem like a prayer asking for a change of sentence, but only consolation?

No matter how you look at it, St. Basil believed that prayers for the dead, who are suffering from their sins, could grant them some sort of relief. Since he is one of the greatest of the Early Church Fathers, I believe his teaching is sufficient evidence for the practice of praying for the dead, since nothing found in the New Testament specifically prohibits the practice.