The authority of Rabbinic Judaism

BetaChristian said:

Question, did they deny Yeshua?
Unless they believe in him, they will die in their sins.

Click to expand...

I guess that's the difference between us. We believe the righteous of all nations have a portion in the world to come.

danny ski said:

I guess that's the difference between us. We believe the righteous of all nations have a portion in the world to come.

Click to expand...

It's not some mere belief I hold. Anyone who wants their sins forgiven, must go through Yeshua, he is the propitiation. If the righteous of all nations have a portion in the world to come, it's only through Yeshua.

If someone does deny him, wouldnt that mean he(the denier) is unrighteous?

mpossoff said:

I'm one of the few Jews here. And this is a fact.

Click to expand...

and that's all you seem to keep harping on. Perhaps we need a cyber mechitza to keep you and the 'few other True Jews' that have been 'born and raised in Judaism' from getting to close to the gentiles or Jews not raised in Judaism.

Yeah, this really demonstrates the one new man. One in Messiah?

Maybe ask Joel what inspired him to write, Jew and Gentile?

Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah, / One in Yeshua, one in the olive tree. / Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah, / One in Yeshua's love. /
Help us Father, to love one another, / With humble hearts, Forgiving each other, / Heal our wounds, bind us together, / So the world might believe.

Not a lot of that going on here.

Lulav said:

and that's all you seem to keep harping on. Perhaps we need a cyber mechitza to keep you and the 'few other True Jews' that have been 'born and raised in Judaism' from getting to close to the gentiles or Jews not raised in Judaism.

Yeah, this really demonstrates the one new man. One in Messiah?

Maybe ask Joel what inspired him to write, Jew and Gentile?

Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah, / One in Yeshua, one in the olive tree. / Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah, / One in Yeshua's love. /
Help us Father, to love one another, / With humble hearts, Forgiving each other, / Heal our wounds, bind us together, / So the world might believe.

Not a lot of that going on here.

Click to expand...

My comment was to Chavah who said that Judaism's wouldn't recognize Messianic Judaism and me being a Jew can relate very much.

visionary said:

...within Messianic Judaism circles.

Today, as we try to learn what we should and should not do, in living the life pleasing to God, ... many have turned to historical positions within Judaism for answers. ... Gleaned some great insights, and run into parts that smell dusty in light of today's culture.. and wonder where would Yeshua draw the line.

So... here is another poll..

Click to expand...

That's an odd question/statement. You think as though Judaism is on one side of the line, and Yeshua is on the other. You are aware that Yeshua was a Jew, and practiced Judaism aren't you?

Also, you should probably take a stab at defining what Rabbinic Judaism is because most people here don't have a clue.

David Ben Yosef said:

That's an odd question/statement. You think as though Judaism is on one side of the line, and Yeshua is on the other. You are aware that Yeshua was a Jew, and practiced Judaism aren't you?

Also, you should probably take a stab at defining what Rabbinic Judaism is because most people here don't have a clue.

Click to expand...

And we have to remember that Rabbinic Judaism of today has evolved, not necessarily the same as what we read in the NT.

How quaint, but we are not 'feed' by rabbinical Judaism.

John 6:53 said:

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 10 said:

1 For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Click to expand...

Matthew 23 said:

--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Click to expand...

mpossoff said:

And we have to remember that Rabbinic Judaism of today has evolved, not necessarily the same as what we read in the NT.

Click to expand...

With that comes the other reality on how the Rabbinic Judaism of the NT (which was never called "Judaism" in its day like we understand Judaism today) was not the same kind of Judaism that was present in earlier Biblical times.....even though the Rabbinic Judaism of the N.T Days was something that often got imposed on others in the name of agreeing with the Torah/God's Words when it was often noted by many to be a system that was developed/altered in light of what occurred during the Babylonian Exile/other points in history.

Thus, there's a big elephant in the room whenever others demand for people to be 100% in line with Rabbinic Judaism of today as if that's what the Messiah endorsed or what the prophets spoke of.

Shimshon said:

Is orthodox Judaism the 'only' valid form/expression of Judaism? Without 'orthodox' Judaism Messianic Judaism would not exist? Orthodox Judaism is what God intended Judaism to be?

You see, as a Reform Jew from birth I have been pondering these questions from the beginning. But since 99.9% of the members here have not been raised within a form/expression of Judaism and have only 'discovered' your Jewish roots later in life, you seem to continually see Judaism as 'orthodox' only and have completely ignored the other branches of Judaism when it comes to learning your Jewish roots. Much to the counter missionary Jews delight. Because if they can get you to believe such a thing, then they have more power to convince you that your 'Messianic' form of Judaism is bogus. Leaving you with only one real option (in orthodox mentality), to convert to rabbinical Judaism. If you want to be a 'real' Jew.

It always floors me how Christians who enter into Messianic Judaism will identify with a form of Judaism that is based upon the rejection of Yeshua as an 'authentic' Judaism. It must be true, that if you say something long enough it becomes fact.

The apostles refered to gentiles following Jewish traditions as an unbearable yoke, and they were hunted down like animals by the teachers of the Law. Yeshua told them that they would be run out of their places of learning/worship, and the authorities would not confess Yeshua openly for fear of being put out of the synagogues. Even then it was against 'traditions' to claim faith in Messiah as a Jew. Messianics were NOT accepted by the 'pharisees', who after coordinating Messiah's death and fully rejecting the followers of Yeshua for not standing with them in defense against Rome formed 'Rabbincial' Judaism at Yavneh after the exile. Forming the antithesis of Messianic Judaism, which states YOU are the temple of God, by the power of the Spirit in living in you. Rabbinical Judaism was established upon a Judaism 'without' a temple, in complete rejection of what Messiah Yeshua has established, and accomplished. Namely the indwelling of the Spirit and the scattering of Israel into all the nations.

But hey, go ahead and follow them, if you will not listen to the Spirit of God within you. However, the name of Yeshua will not be spoken of in vain, without consequence. They have rejected the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, the Savior of God. They reject the indwelling of the Spirit as given by Yeshua, God in the flesh who offered this gift to all who abide in him/them. WHAT do they know that YOU have not already been given? Namely, the Salvation of God!

Why are you going to them to learn the ways of Yeshua? Oh that's right, because you beleive Yeshua calls and leads you to practice (orthodox) Judaism......

The call is not be BE Jewish, it's to 'save' the Jewish. Through the Word of the gospel, and the indwelling of the Spirit offered. The call is for all Israel to be SAVED, and the nations will rejoice and be blessed. A non-Jew is to help the Jew become saved. Not become Jewish. ALL people need to be saved, but this comes through Israel finding our Messiah, as a nation. When Israel says 'blessed is he who comes in the name of Yeshua' then the nations will be blessed beyond measure. A non-Jews goal is to further this fact, support the Jews and bring them to the saving grace found ONLY in Yeshua and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Where is this taught in Rabbinical Judaism? This is ONLY taught in Messianic Judaism. Which was formed by and upon God himself, in the flesh, established with his own blood. And proved by the Spirit that lived within him, and by his life, death, and resurrection.

Yeshua is my authority, I have no other. He rules over his people, now and forever.

Click to expand...

I think what you noted is interesting since it is essentially a matter of having a valid desire (identifying with Jewish/Hebrew culture out of respect and value - like Ruth OR Rahab and others did) and yet having that manipulated whenever others claim that the only way one can believe in Yeshua from a Jewish perspective is to be in line with Orthodox Judaism/Rabbinical customs - even though much of that basis was against what Yeshua did and Yeshua himself wasn't in line with the Rabbinical customs/schools of thought in his day either as a Jew.....despite where he agreed with much of it.

The idea that the Lord justifies as others as they are as Gentiles is something many do not prefer or think highly on - even though the Lord spoke highly of it many times to the Jewish people when they had stereotypes of God in his working with Gentiles - and although he celebrated Gentiles who joined Israel/became like the Hebrews, he also had NO problems with Gentiles who supported Israel and yet remained Gentiles. The way many go about it - it's like as you discussed before in #247 with having a corrupt version of Two-House when it says that Gentiles wishing to follow the Lord HAVE to cease being Gentile in Rabbinic Judaism - and thus, you never truly have reconciliation.

And it's ironic in light of the romanticized view others have of Rabbinical Judaism (when trying to emulate it) since much of it was what led others to persecute Messianic Jews and Gentile Believers who did not trust that Yeshua was the Messiah (as opposed to submitting to the view that he was "blasphemous", a "witch" and many other derogatory views).....and allow everything from beatings to being stoned and lied on. When Messianic Jews would not fight in the Bar Kokhba Revolt and other battles due to feeling the Messiah himself would establish Israel as a nation (When it followed him), they were deemed as traitors by their Jewish brethren and experienced even more persecution - even as it concerns being sold out to the Romans who were persecuting believers as well.

And yet we're continually told that it was the Rabbinical Judaism concept that one must adhere to in order to be Jewish as Yeshua saw it.

As noted earlier, much of this is ironic when it comes to the reality on how the Rabbinic Judaism of the NT (which was never called "Judaism" in its day like we understand Judaism today) was not the same kind of Judaism that was present in earlier Biblical times (be it the prophets or Moses).....even though the Rabbinic Judaism of the N.T Days was something that often got imposed on others in the name of agreeing with the Torah/God's Words when it was often noted by many to be a system that was developed/altered in light of what occurred during the Babylonian Exile/other points in history.


There are, of course, others who've noted among Jewish leadership that certain forms of Judaism (as it concerns the School of Hiliel) advocated what others would think is found only in Christianity...as seen in how Hiliel was of the mindset that Judaism was meant to be open toward Gentiles coming to faith in Messiah/being considered righteous via the Noahide Laws of Genesis 9. Many rabbis have been of the thought that what Yeshua advocated was simply a form of Judaism that Hiliel was about...but they also consider what Christ advocated as Christianity since Christ is the center. The fact that the School of Hiliel has often been seen as essentially supporting what appears to be Gentile inclusion without conversion has been a big problem for many saying only Christianity supports that.....but Judaism has never been monolithic, just as Christianity has never been (more discussed here/here as well as in #15, #24 , #25, #28 , #30 , #35, #38 , #41 , #48 , #52 , #94 , #96 and #167/#177 ).

Even if one were to say that one cannot be for the ideology that Judaism is anything except Rabbinic, I would say that to believe such is incomplete since Rabbinic Judaism (often considered to be THE definition of Judaism) was in many ways a totally new synthesis which borrowed from at least three different streams of Judaism which had emerged during the Second Temple period - Zadokite (covenantal) Judaism, Enochic (apocalyptic) Judaism, and Sapiential (wisdom-based) Judaism. There was Zadokite Judaism, Enochic Judaism and Sapiential Judaism.

For anyone wishing to investigate more in regards to the differing variations of Judaism, I'd highly recommend investigating the work of Dr. Gabriele Boccaccini, professor of New Testament and Second Temple Judaism at the University of Michigan. He is an expert on what happened to the religion of the Jews after the Babylonian exile and in the centuries that led up to the beginning of Christianity...and has written several books, including Middle Judaism: Jewish Thought, 300 BCE-200 CE (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1991), Beyond the Essene Hypothesis: The Partings of the Ways between Qumran and Enochic Judaism (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998), and Roots of Rabbinic Judaism: An Intellectual History, from Ezekiel to Daniel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001).

The last of the works noted was very fascinating as it concerns detailing the development of Rabbinic Judaism and it's development. For Rabbinic Judaism developed and became the mainstream form of Judaism after Jerusalem’s Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. In Roots of Rabbinic Judaism , Boccaccini traces the Rabbinic movement back to its roots in the Second Temple period (the period that commences right after the Jews’ return from Babylon)...starting from the premise that Rabbinic Judaism was not always the normative or mainstream expression of Judaism that it claims to be. There's much basis for seeing how Rabbinic Judaism is something that likely descended from a combination of “Judaisms” that competed with each other in post-exilic Judah when trying to do the best that was possible to give a united front.

For more, one can consider going here for more review...or here:

• Zadokite Judaism and the Roots of Rabbinic Judaism
• Charlotte Elisheva Fonrobert - Roots of Rabbinic Judaism: An ...
• Review of Gabrielle Boccaccini, Roots of Rabbinic Judaism: An Intellectual History, from Ezekiel to Daniel ...

Gxg (G²);64130637 said:

With that comes the other reality on how the Rabbinic Judaism of the NT (which was never called "Judaism" in its day like we understand Judaism today) was not the same kind of Judaism that was present in earlier Biblical times.....even though the Rabbinic Judaism of the N.T Days was something that often got imposed on others in the name of agreeing with the Torah/God's Words when it was often noted by many to be a system that was developed/altered in light of what occurred during the Babylonian Exile/other points in history.

Thus, there's a big elephant in the room whenever others demand for people to be 100% in line with Rabbinic Judaism of today as if that's what the Messiah endorsed or what the prophets spoke of.

Click to expand...

Very true. And even David BY mentioned this in another thread: #57

David Ben Yosef said:

Rabbinic Judaism [had to remove all the derogatory remarks ] began in 70 CE - LINK.

Click to expand...

However, that speaks of 'modern' post Yeshua/Israel exile Rabbinic Judaism. As formed at Yavneh. There was Rabbinical Judaism before then, only it was based on the original rabbi's who formed Talmudic Judaism from the Babylonian exile.

Shimshon said:

Thank you for your comments. Very true what you said above. Tradition is mans way of interacting with God. And all forms of religion have them. It would be nice if others here would come to the 'Jewish' understanding that there is more than one form/expression of Judaism.

I see orthodox Judaism's perspective as an upside-down pyramid. They think they are the 'point', the narrow road, and all others are being funneled down to them. They are the only valid form (in their eyes) and the rest are walking the wide road. And if they eventually want to reach the goal they will narrow their paths down to agree with 'them'.

I notice most orthodox only see two levels up this pyramid before they start throwing out things like "not really Jewish". ortho/conserv. Beyond that it becomes a slippery slope it seems.

After that, reform, may or may not be seen as Jewish. A Jew maybe, but not Jewish. (can never understand that one)

Then you hit reconstructionist:

Then you reach the top, or bottom depending on your perspective, humanistic Judaism:

All these forms of Judaism, yet people here are only concerned with one expression?

So, where do you think Messianic Judaism fits into this? The 5 groups above do not see Messianic faith as Judaism. Yet, there is a form of Messianic Judaism. Sorta like my Taino ancestry, we are considered 'extinct' from humanity, or so say the historians. Yet we live! The same with MJ's, we are considered 'extinct' from Judaism, yet we exist, as Jews. As defined by God, not man.

Click to expand...

Then I would say that Messianic Judaism like reform doesn't believe in the binding of Halacha. I would also say unlike Reform Judaism Messianic Judaism believes the TaNaK was written by G-d.

So a definite no that Messianic Judaism says Halacha is binding.

However the whole point of Messianic Judaism isn't necessarily religious anyway. It's a movement where we can keep our indentity and like Reform Judaism retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism as well as some of the practices and culture. But certainly not binding.

So I would say Messianic Judaism doesn't have a binding aspect of Halacha. But definitely cultural to maintain indentity. The purpose of Messianic Judaism Torah observance anyway because like myself we already came from a background.

mpossoff said:

Then I would say that Messianic Judaism like reform doesn't believe in the binding of Halacha. I would also say unlike Reform Judaism Messianic Judaism believes the TaNaK was written by G-d.

So a definite no that Messianic Judaism says Halacha is binding.

However the whole point of Messianic Judaism isn't necessarily religious anyway. It's a movement where we can keep our indentity and like Reform Judaism retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism as well as some of the practices and culture. But certainly not binding.

So I would say Messianic Judaism doesn't have a binding aspect of Halacha. But definitely cultural to maintain indentity. The purpose of Messianic Judaism Torah observance anyway because like myself we already came from a background.

Click to expand...

Very succinct! I can fully agree with what you said.

As such, this is why the orthodox treat us the same as reform Jews. They claim we are not Jewish because we do not follow halacha, as they do. I wonder how many can understand the similarities between Catholicism and Rabbinicalism?

Shimshon said:

Very succinct! I can fully agree with what you said.

As such, this is why the orthodox treat us the same as reform Jews. They claim we are not Jewish because we do not follow halacha, as they do. I wonder how many can understand the similarities between Catholicism and Rabbinicalism?

Click to expand...

Well there are many Conservative Jews who are members of conservative synagogues and I can testify they are reform. Take my brother and his family. Members of a conservative synagogue, Hebrew school and the 'whole 9'. Definitely reform lifestyle. They don't believe a lot of the halacha. And my brother tells me that goes for most of the congregation.

My opinion is if reform went on the matrilineal descent side you would have a lot more conservative Jews being reform. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and the surrounding areas had a lot of Jews. It's a fact 99% of the Jews were reform in lifestyle but wouldn't go against matrilineal descent.

My opinion is what unites conservative and orthodox is matrilineal descent only. I guarantee if reform tool that side much different story.

mpossoff said:

Well there are many Conservative Jews who are members of conservative synagogues and I can testify they are reform. Take my brother and his family. Members of a conservative synagogue, Hebrew school and the 'whole 9'. Definitely reform lifestyle. They don't believe a lot of the halacha.

My opinion is if reform went on the matrilineal descent side you would have a lot more conservative Jews being reform.

Click to expand...

That would make complete sense, since the conservative movement was formed because of the reforms lax additude of halachic observances.

Shimshon said:

That would make complete sense, since the conservative movement was formed because of the reforms lax additude of halachic observances.

Click to expand...

I'm convinced the main issue is matrilineal versus patrilineal descent. There are many mixed marriages in the reform movement and this is the issue.

mpossoff said:

I'm convinced the main issue is matrilineal versus patrilineal descent. There are many mixed marriages in the reform movement and this is the issue.

Click to expand...

You don't have to tell me about that one. I'm from a mixed marriage. Now, try being born like that in the south Bronx. I've had to deal with this issue my whole life.

mpossoff said:

I'm convinced the main issue is matrilineal versus patrilineal descent. There are many mixed marriages in the reform movement and this is the issue.

Click to expand...

Just asking a question:
What's wrong with mixed marriages anyways?