The authority of Rabbinic Judaism

[visionary]

...within Messianic Judaism circles.

Today, as we try to learn what we should and should not do, in living the life pleasing to God, ... many have turned to historical positions within Judaism for answers. ... Gleaned some great insights, and run into parts that smell dusty in light of today's culture.. and wonder where would Yeshua draw the line.

So... here is another poll..

 

[ananda]

I believe Rabbinic Judaism is one group's interpretation of & commentary on Torah/Neviim/Ketuvim, just like I believe Karaite, esoteric, and Messianic Judaism have their own interpretation of & commentary on Torah/Neviim/Ketuvim.

Some might elevate Rabbinic/Karaite/Esoteric/Etc. interpretation & commentary into the realm of Ketuvim or even higher, and that's when things can get precarious.

 

[Shimshon]

Very good question. Is orthodox Judaism the 'only' valid form/expression of Judaism? Without 'orthodox' Judaism Messianic Judaism would not exist? Orthodox Judaism is what God intended Judaism to be?

You see, as a Reform Jew from birth I have been pondering these questions from the beginning. But since 99.9% of the members here have not been raised within a form/expression of Judaism and have only 'discovered' your Jewish roots later in life, you seem to continually see Judaism as 'orthodox' only and have completely ignored the other branches of Judaism when it comes to learning your Jewish roots. Much to the counter missionary Jews delight. Because if they can get you to believe such a thing, then they have more power to convince you that your 'Messianic' form of Judaism is bogus. Leaving you with only one real option (in orthodox mentality), to convert to rabbinical Judaism. If you want to be a 'real' Jew.

It always floors me how Christians who enter into Messianic Judaism will identify with a form of Judaism that is based upon the rejection of Yeshua as an 'authentic' Judaism. It must be true, that if you say something long enough it becomes fact.

The apostles refered to gentiles following Jewish traditions as an unbearable yoke, and they were hunted down like animals by the teachers of the Law. Yeshua told them that they would be run out of their places of learning/worship, and the authorities would not confess Yeshua openly for fear of being put out of the synagogues. Even then it was against 'traditions' to claim faith in Messiah as a Jew. Messianics were NOT accepted by the 'pharisees', who after coordinating Messiah's death and fully rejecting the followers of Yeshua for not standing with them in defense against Rome formed 'Rabbincial' Judaism at Yavneh after the exile. Forming the antithesis of Messianic Judaism, which states YOU are the temple of God, by the power of the Spirit in living in you. Rabbinical Judaism was established upon a Judaism 'without' a temple, in complete rejection of what Messiah Yeshua has established, and accomplished. Namely the indwelling of the Spirit and the scattering of Israel into all the nations.

But hey, go ahead and follow them, if you will not listen to the Spirit of God within you. However, the name of Yeshua will not be spoken of in vain, without consequence.

39 “As for you, O house of Israel, thus says the Lord GOD: Go serve every one of you his idols, now and hereafter, if you will not listen to me; but my holy name you shall no more profane with your gifts and your idols.

They have rejected the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, the Savior of God. They reject the indwelling of the Spirit as given by Yeshua, God in the flesh who offered this gift to all who abide in him/them. WHAT do they know that YOU have not already been given? Namely, the Salvation of God!

Why are you going to them to learn the ways of Yeshua? Oh that's right, because you beleive Yeshua calls and leads you to practice (orthodox) Judaism......

The call is not be BE Jewish, it's to 'save' the Jewish. Through the Word of the gospel, and the indwelling of the Spirit offered. The call is for all Israel to be SAVED, and the nations will rejoice and be blessed. A non-Jew is to help the Jew become saved. Not become Jewish. ALL people need to be saved, but this comes through Israel finding our Messiah, as a nation. When Israel says 'blessed is he who comes in the name of Yeshua' then the nations will be blessed beyond measure. A non-Jews goal is to further this fact, support the Jews and bring them to the saving grace found ONLY in Yeshua and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Where is this taught in Rabbinical Judaism? This is ONLY taught in Messianic Judaism. Which was formed by and upon God himself, in the flesh, established with his own blood. And proved by the Spirit that lived within him, and by his life, death, and resurrection.

Yeshua is my authority, I have no other. He rules over his people, now and forever.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Very good question. Is orthodox Judaism the 'only' valid form/expression of Judaism? Without 'orthodox' Judaism Messianic Judaism would not exist? Orthodox Judaism is what God intended Judaism to be?

You see, as a Reform Jew from birth I have been pondering these questions from the beginning. But since 99.9% of the members here have not been raised within a form/expression of Judaism and have only 'discovered' your Jewish roots later in life, you seem to continually see Judaism as 'orthodox' only and have completely ignored the other branches of Judaism when it comes to learning your Jewish roots. Much to the counter missionary Jews delight. Because if they can get you to believe such a thing, then they have more power to convince you that your 'Messianic' form of Judaism is bogus. Leaving you with only one real option (in orthodox mentality), to convert to rabbinical Judaism. If you want to be a 'real' Jew.

It always floors me how Christians who enter into Messianic Judaism will identify with a form of Judaism that is based upon the rejection of Yeshua as an 'authentic' Judaism. It must be true, that if you say something long enough it becomes fact.

The apostles refered to gentiles following Jewish traditions as an unbearable yoke, and they were hunted down like animals by the teachers of the Law. Yeshua told them that they would be run out of their places of learning/worship, and the authorities would not confess Yeshua openly for fear of being put out of the synagogues. Even then it was against 'traditions' to claim faith in Messiah as a Jew. Messianics were NOT accepted by the 'pharisees', who after coordinating Messiah's death and fully rejecting the followers of Yeshua for not standing with them in defense against Rome formed 'Rabbincial' Judaism at Yavneh after the exile. Forming the antithesis of Messianic Judaism, which states YOU are the temple of God, by the power of the Spirit in living in you. Rabbinical Judaism was established upon a Judaism 'without' a temple, in complete rejection of what Messiah Yeshua has established, and accomplished. Namely the indwelling of the Spirit and the scattering of Israel into all the nations.

But hey, go ahead and follow them, if you will not listen to the Spirit of God within you. However, the name of Yeshua will not be spoken of in vain, without consequence. They have rejected the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, the Savior of God. They reject the indwelling of the Spirit as given by Yeshua, God in the flesh who offered this gift to all who abide in him/them. WHAT do they know that YOU have not already been given? Namely, the Salvation of God!

Why are you going to them to learn the ways of Yeshua? Oh that's right, because you beleive Yeshua calls and leads you to practice (orthodox) Judaism......

The call is not be BE Jewish, it's to 'save' the Jewish. Through the Word of the gospel, and the indwelling of the Spirit offered. The call is for all Israel to be SAVED, and the nations will rejoice and be blessed. A non-Jew is to help the Jew become saved. Not become Jewish. ALL people need to be saved, but this comes through Israel finding our Messiah, as a nation. When Israel says 'blessed is he who comes in the name of Yeshua' then the nations will be blessed beyond measure. A non-Jews goal is to further this fact, support the Jews and bring them to the saving grace found ONLY in Yeshua and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Where is this taught in Rabbinical Judaism? This is ONLY taught in Messianic Judaism. Which was formed by and upon God himself, in the flesh, established with his own blood. And proved by the Spirit that lived within him, and by his life, death, and resurrection.

Yeshua is my authority, I have no other. He rules over his people, now and forever.

You made some great points. I was raised in a conservative Jewish home. I agree with you for the most part. I find Messianic Judaism and in between of reform and conservative Judaism more towards Reform Judaism. Messianic Judaism is very loose because Torah keeping isn't the focus on the movement anyway.

There's a discussion about Moses Seat. And I think people are applying Moses Seat with current Orthodox Judaism meaning they are the same. That Pharisaic Judaism transformed into Orthodox Judaism.

Now traditionally speaking even reform Jews have traditions pertaining to the High Holidays.

 

[Shimshon]

Now traditionally speaking even reform Jews have traditions pertaining to the High Holidays.

Thank you for your comments. Very true what you said above. Tradition is mans way of interacting with God. And all forms of religion have them. It would be nice if others here would come to the 'Jewish' understanding that there is more than one form/expression of Judaism.

I see orthodox Judaism's perspective as an upside-down pyramid. They think they are the 'point', the narrow road, and all others are being funneled down to them. They are the only valid form (in their eyes) and the rest are walking the wide road. And if they eventually want to reach the goal they will narrow their paths down to agree with 'them'.

I notice most orthodox only see two levels up this pyramid before they start throwing out things like "not really Jewish". ortho/conserv. Beyond that it becomes a slippery slope it seems.

After that, reform, may or may not be seen as Jewish. A Jew maybe, but not Jewish. (can never understand that one)

Reform Judaism believes that the Torah was written by different human sources, rather than by God, and then later combined. While Reform Judaism does not accept the binding nature of halakhah (Jewish Law), the movement does retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism as well as some of the practices and culture.

Then you hit reconstructionist:

the movement does not believe in a personified deity that is active in history and does not believe that God chose the Jewish people. In another way Reconstructionist Judaism is less liberal than Reform Judaism - Reconstructionists may observe Jewish Law, not because it is a binding Law from God, but because it is a valuable cultural remnant.

Then you reach the top, or bottom depending on your perspective, humanistic Judaism:

offers a nontheistic alternative in contemporary Jewish life. Humanistic Jews believe in creating a meaningful Jewish lifestyle free from supernatural authority, in achieving dignity and self-esteem, and in reviving the secular roots of Judaism. Humanistic Judaism embraces a human-centered philosophy that combines the celebration of Jewish culture and identity with adherence to humanistic values.

All these forms of Judaism, yet people here are only concerned with one expression?

So, where do you think Messianic Judaism fits into this? The 5 groups above do not see Messianic faith as Judaism. Yet, there is a form of Messianic Judaism. Sorta like my Taino ancestry, we are considered 'extinct' from humanity, or so say the historians. Yet we live! The same with MJ's, we are considered 'extinct' from Judaism, yet we exist, as Jews. As defined by God, not man.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

All these forms of Judaism, yet people here are only concerned with one expression?

Being concerned with Orthodox Judaism turns into almost condemning it.

In the New Testament there was contention between the diaspora/Greek speaking Jews who were more lax than the Judean Jews. Same can be applied within Judaism.

So, where do you think Messianic Judaism fits into this? The 5 groups above do not see Messianic faith as Judaism. Yet, there is a form of Messianic Judaism. Sorta like my Taino ancestry, we are considered 'extinct' from humanity, or so say the historians. Yet we live! The same with MJ's, we are considered 'extinct' from Judaism, yet we exist, as Jews. As defined by God, not man.

Don't know if you could put Messianic Judaism into a branch that you listed.

 

[Near]

What is Judaism?

Any form of what is called by men, Judaism, if Yeshua is not the authority over it, it is false. It is religous, and has a culturally jewish motif, but it is not following God, and the antichrists who deny Yeshua, have no part with him. They are not "our bretheren" (unless by that what was meant was by our literal DNA).

Messianic Judaism, Torah keeping, someone says it's not the focus? To love God is to keep his commandments right?

The question we should not be asking is, "which one of the Judaism's (messianic, rabbinic, karaite, etc) is better on the scale of Torah?"

The question there would seem to put forth the idea that Yeshua-less "Judaism" partakes of the truth in union with messianic judaism on a scale, as competitors or "brothers" or a sort.

Rather the truth is,
Yeshua saith unto him,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The antichrists who deny Yeshua are not at all an authority over those who are of Yeshua.
Rabbinic commentary, karaite commentary... Anyone's commentary who is not of Christ, although I will admit "some" things can be said that they are scripturally correct on, for example, "God exists"... Their commentary should be looked at with great discernment, and skepticism, and we should not puppy ourselves to Rabbinic Judaism, thinking we're doing a good thing. I treat their information the same way as I would with an atheist historian/bible scholar. An atheist can know all the scripture he can, and still be antichrist. The same applies to those antichrists of the so-called "other" Judaism's.

I don't like to describe what I follow as messianic "Judaism" for two reasons... What is Judaism? And secondly who are these antichrists who claim to follow Judaism, but as a different "sect"?

If Judaism is true, we cannot call Judaism without Yeshua, Judaism at all, since then it would be wrong. Messianic Judaism, must be the only Judaism if Judaism is true.

On the other hand if we say there are multiple judaisms... The word religion is like the word Judaism. The way I will use it now is as follows.

A.Not all religion is wrong, those who follow Yeshua are in the correct religion.
However, the other religions, their religous people are dead wrong, and not of us at all.

B.Not all Judaism is wrong, those who follow Yeshua are in the correct Judaism.
However, the other Judaism's, their jewish people are dead wrong, and not of us at all.

Yeshua is the only way!

 

[danny ski]

What most people outside Judaism fail to understand is that Orthodoxy is the default position among us. It's always been that way and will continue into the future. The demographics will make sure of that. Because Judaism is a lifestyle, there will always be those who try to water it down like Reforms or others. And as always they'll fail in the long run. Any change has to pass the Torah test and that's where the Orthodox Judaism exists. They're the judges, teachers and guardians. They sit in Moses's chair. BTW. Whenever the Temple is rebuild and the Sanhendrin reconstituted in full, who do you think will speak with the most weight? The Hannukha Jews or the Orthodox?

 

[Near]

What most people outside Judaism fail to understand is that Orthodoxy is the default position among us. It's always been that way and will continue into the future. The demographics will make sure of that. Because Judaism is a lifestyle, there will always be those who try to water it down like Reforms or others. And as always they'll fail in the long run. Any change has to pass the Torah test and that's where the Orthodox Judaism exists. They're the judges, teachers and guardians. They sit in Moses's chair. BTW. Whenever the Temple is rebuild and the Sanhendrin reconstituted in full, who do you think will speak with the most weight? The Hannukha Jews or the Orthodox?

Question, did they deny Yeshua?
Unless they believe in him, they will die in their sins.

 

[ChavaK]

What most people outside Judaism fail to understand is that Orthodoxy is the default position among us. It's always been that way and will continue into the future. The demographics will make sure of that. Because Judaism is a lifestyle, there will always be those who try to water it down like Reforms or others. And as always they'll fail in the long run. Any change has to pass the Torah test and that's where the Orthodox Judaism exists. They're the judges, teachers and guardians. They sit in Moses's chair. BTW. Whenever the Temple is rebuild and the Sanhendrin reconstituted in full, who do you think will speak with the most weight? The Hannukha Jews or the Orthodox?

It's always been a relatively small group that has carried on Judaism.
However, with the growth of Orthodoxy via child birth, conversion, and BTs, that small group is going to grow and ensure the eternal existence of Judaism.

 

[ChavaK]

you seem to continually see Judaism as 'orthodox' only and have completely ignored the other branches of Judaism when it comes to learning your Jewish roots.

Perhaps it is because they see Orthodoxy as the legitimate expression of Judaism for Jews. Would Messianics like to be involved with Humanistic Jews, or Reform of Conservative movements that do not necessarily believe in the divine revelation of the Torah? Who think it's okay to break what the Torah states we should observe?

Much to the counter missionary Jews delight. Because if they can get you to believe such a thing, then they have more power to convince you that your 'Messianic' form of Judaism is bogus. Leaving you with only one real option (in orthodox mentality), to convert to rabbinical Judaism. If you want to be a 'real' Jew.

I disagree. Counter missionaries work to get Jews to return to Judaism, not Gentiles. Orthodox Judaism discourages conversion to Judaism, and if a person is accepted for conversion, it ain't an easy road to follow. Many do not make it through the process. If we really wanted to discourage Gentiles from their Christian faith, and get them to convert to Orthodox Judaism, we would be sending out missionaries of our own. How many Orthodox missionaries have you seen out knocking on the doors of Gentiles, trying to get them to become Jews?

It always floors me how Christians who enter into Messianic Judaism will identify with a form of Judaism that is based upon the rejection of Yeshua as an 'authentic' Judaism.

All forms of Judaism reject Jesus as messiah. But I agree...why would Christians want to identify with a religion that does not accept their beliefs? Why would you want to adopt the customs and rituals and culture of a people not your own, who actively disagree with what you believe?
It baffles me as much as it baffles you

 

[ananda]

All forms of Judaism reject Jesus as messiah.

Not Messianic Judaism.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Not Messianic Judaism.

Well Judaism's don't accept Messianic Judaism as a Judaism.

 

[ananda]

Well Judaism's don't accept Messianic Judaism as a Judaism.

The "stepchild" shouldn't be concerned about how his brethren view him or ostracize him. The only opinion that matters is their Father's.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The "stepchild" shouldn't be concerned about how his brethren view him or ostracize him. The only opinion that matters is their Father's.

My point is Judaism doesn't accept Messianic Judaism as a Judaism, period end of story.

 

[ananda]

My point is Judaism doesn't accept Messianic Judaism as a Judaism, period end of story.

I corrected it for you: "rabbinic Judaism doesn't accept Messianic Judaism as a Judaism"

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I corrected it for you.

Well first you have no right changing a direct quote and 2nd Judaism's don't and I repeat don't accept Messianic Judaism.

 

[ananda]

Well first you have no right changing a direct quote ...

My apologies, I didn't mean disrespect.

and 2nd Judaism's don't and I repeat don't accept Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism accepts Messianic Judaism, and I find that satisfactory & sufficient.

 

[ChavaK]

Well Judaism's don't accept Messianic Judaism as a Judaism.

Correct, and I am aware that people here believe otherwise. I'm not here to argue with anyone
or try to dissuade them from their faith.

My opinions of course are always going to reflect the view of Othodoxy

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Correct, and I am aware that people here believe otherwise.
My opinions of course are always going to reflect the view of Othodoxy

I'm one of the few Jews here. And this is a fact.