Are these activities sinful?

Why are you sin conscious?

Well, with the first one, it would depend on the context of the guy dressing as a woman. Is he a transvestite? Did he come to church dressed like that and just join in like everyone else (ie, making it seem a normal practice), or was it in the context of an illustration or part of a drama sketch?

If it was the latter two- then that isn't exactly the same thing is it, as someone making it a lifestyle choice? Over here in the Uk we have a centuries old tradition in pantomime, for example that the Dame ( be it the wicked stepmother, wicked Queen, Widow Twanky, Jack's mother - as in 'beanstalk' Jack- or whoever) is ALWAYS played by a man dressed as a woman- (and the more outlandish the costume the better). Until fairly recently the Principal Boy (Prince Charming, Jack, Aladdin, etc) used to be played by a girl but it tends to be a male now. It's just theatre tradition here. I have photos of myself in Principal boy costumes from my more theatrical days. I know a church is different from a theatre (although sometimes one wonders!!!! ) but the context does make a difference.
One of our older boys in our youth group dressed in drag for a comedy sketch- and the message behind it is still remembered by those who saw it a few years later.

Smoking: Well, yes, youre right that there's nothing about it directly in the Bible- but the passages about how we treat our bodies should be considered. However- that's not our business. I'm very anti-smoking, personally- but I have no right to pile judgement on a Christian who smokes. I'd say something if I was truly concerned for their health or if asked for an opinion- but, unless the person is smoking in the church building or at inappropriate times and places (church meetings etc), then it's a personal issue- not a 'church' issue. It isn't 'the church's' business. You can't put out an announcement from the pulpit that smoking is sinful- unless you include a whole ton of other stuff. I take it that anyone who has 'church' issues with it where you are, are all the perfect weight for your body types- because if any of you are carrying a few extra pounds, then what's to stop the church speaking out against the sin of gluttony? Not every person has a medical condition that causes it- so therefore some are simply over-eating. Not judging here- I have weight to lose, too- just going by the logic that if one has a problem with a church because some of its members smoke- then one must also have a problem with people who are overweight and many other things, besides.

Baptism: I'm wondering why you think it's a sin to take communion without being baptised? That's definitely not a BIblical precedent! Nowhere did Jesus say "Do this in remembrance of me- but only if you've been dunked first!".
Its purely denominational. Some churches are happy for unbaptised people to take communion, some only if you've been baptised, some only if you've been baptised AND confirmed.
Some churches will be happy for non- Christians to take communion. The Bible says that we mustn't take communion in an unworthy manner. Some take that to mean we have to confess all our sins first- some that only Christians can take it...there are different thoughts.
In our church (Methodist- although it was the same in the Baptist churches I attended) anyone may take communion. We are been told by the minister as part of the service to come to the Lord's Table with reverance and not in an unworthy manner- and that is between them and God. No one is going to 'test' a visitor to see if they 'pass' as a Christian first. Many Christians simply go through the motions and plenty take communion wihout sorting out all their attitudes and problems first. Many non- Christians find the experience very meaningful.
Not stating an argument for or against as such, here- just what my particular denomination goes with.
Some churches will say "Yep- same here" Some will say "That's terrible- it's too 'holy'"

I can't really comment on the last point, as we weren't there. Public confrontation doesn't sound good at all- but was anything done beforehand to solve problems? Was this an entire group coming to you as a delegation, or one or two who'd got to the end of their tether and just let it out there and then ? You say you've had issues that have hurt people? Maybe you've been outrightly judgemental? You do seem to have a bit of a fixation on 'reasons I don't approve'- one of which is a matter that have nothing to do with the church as a body or you individually- and, I'm sorry if I sound blunt- there's quite a bit of condemnation going on in your post. If you think those matters show that your church may not be following Christ- then I can tell you , you won't find a church anywhere that you think truly is.

Obviously we don't know what these other issues are here- but to say these are the 'lower tier' does rather sound as if you're keeping a tally of criticisms. It does seem rather as if you're standing back and making a mental note of things you disaprove of.
Of course, that may be unfair- it's just the impression.

So what are the 'upper tier' issues? Are they serious? Are they bad enough to leave a church over?

My wife has recently taken up smoking as a way to combat Ulcerative Colitis.
She only smokes 1 or 2 a day and it is far less harmful (to her temple) than the chemo drugs she would have to take if she didn't.
It has already had a massive effect on her condition, almost a miracle cure!
So I simply cannot consider her smoking to be a sin unless pharmaceuticals are an even worse one.

I will always put more trust in a God given plant than I will a drug created to produce profit.

So, just like the pantomime example, there are always different ways to look at things when they are put into context.

1. Depends upon the context. If there was a reason, e.g. they were part of a play or making some point, no problem. If it's clothing that you think looks feminine but wasn't intended that way, also no problem. If he is intentionally cross-dressing, then it's is an issue where conservative and liberal Christians will probably disagree, based on differing attitudes towards the OT legal code of which the prohibition is a part. As a liberal Christian I would say that I wouldn't automatically judge him, but it's cause for concern. Only a close friend or someone working with him pastorally would know what's really going on. Others should not judge.

2. Smoking is not prohibited, but it's unwise for health reasons. And we are told that our body is a temple. Sin? Maybe not, as it's probably not deliberate defiance of God. For older Christians who grew up with it, I wouldn't make a fuss. I'd try to stop youth from taking it up, though.

3. Jesus' words of institution don't limit communion to baptized Christians. Paul speaks of discerning the body. We normally restrict communion to Christians. Christians normally would be baptized. If someone isn't baptized, I think there's reason to ask why they haven't made a public profession of their faith. But I wouldn't be legalistic. E.g. our church baptizes infants. But if someone isn't baptized as an infant, we normally baptize them as part of confirmation, at about age 14. If someone from the Baptist tradition (who wouldn't have baptized their children) starts attending our church, we could have a 12 year old who is a committed Christian, but isn't baptized. I certainly wouldn't keep him from communion, even though our rules imply that we should do so.

4. Sin to me is deliberate violation of God's commands. Failure to follow the procedure you think is right is not necessarily sin. Slander and mockery is, though I have to say that it seems to be a pretty common sin.

jjust19 said:

1. One of the male members of the church (24yr) dressed up as a woman during one of the services. Though an athletic/muscular man in drag usually sends shivers down my spine anyway, I more than ever didn't agree with it due to the verse that states that it is sinful for men to dress like women, and the verse that prohibits men acting effeminately.

Click to expand...

It's not just the verses that would make me opposed to this, but all that I know about God, His ways, His plans, and His creation of men and women. It goes not only against a few specific verses, but against the natural ways of God's creation. I'd still treat the person with respect and kindness, though.

2. My thoughts vary with smoking. There's nothing against it in the Bible (as far as I know of) but I believe that anything that damages your body in a profound way is sinful, due to our bodies supposedly being temples of the blessed Holy Spirit. Moreover, we aren't supposed to be mastered by anything.

Click to expand...

Anything that is overtly damaging to our bodies is sinful, IMO. The only exception I can think of would be if you were perhaps on a life-saving medication that had some damaging side effects; you'd have to weigh the fact that it might save your life against the side effects.

3. One other problem I had was when our pastor preached. He was talking about the verse on people who aren't Christian taking part in communion. I try to follow the Bible 100%, and thus believe that if I'm not baptised, it is a sin to consume the body and blood of Christ. He believes that it doesn't matter and that it's something all can participate in (I attend a Pentecostal church, not the crazy ones).

Click to expand...

Communion is for believers only IMO.

4. I've been having issues in the church of late due to poor communication, in which I'm liable for a few hurt hearts. However, their process was completely incorrect. Instead of taking me in private etc. like the verse says, they accosted me in front of the church. Is it a sin not to follow proper procedure? Moreover, I noticed unneeded slander, accusations, and mockery in what they said.

Click to expand...

You're right, they should approach you privately (with witnesses) at first, and only make it public if you're unrepentant.

The problem is, you haven't given any kind of context to what you're talking about.

A man dressing up like a woman is weird, sure, and it definitely is suggestive of homosexuality, but we are not under the law, the Law of Moses was for the people of Israel at that time. It has passed. It's not a sin for a man to put a dress on, although it is weird and wrong for a different reason that isn't related to the Levitical Law.

Smoking is bad for your body, and counter productive to giving God glory. Pretty simple. But why do you judge someone based on one act? Don't you sin? Yes, you do. That's their sin. Worry about your own. Judge not, lest you be judged, brother.

Communion is something that almost everyone has a different opinion on. Get out your Bible, and do some research. Gain your own opinion and ask God to guide your heart. You'll know what's right.

Church discipline in front of the church is a very Biblical thing. Not much else to say there. But public discipline should only be done after various attempts at personal discipline are attempted and failed, IIRC.

C.S. Lewis, the evangelical champion, smoked cigars, I believe. He also drank on occasion and felt little compunction over it.

jjust19 said:

Hey everyone. I'm asking this question due to being a tad confused on whether my church is truly following Christ or not. For I've seen them do/say a few things that alarm me as an aspiring Christian (though I'm considered Christian, I'm not until I break an addiction). So, not knowing what's what, I thought I'd ask a collective group of Christians. So here is what I disagreed with:

1. One of the male members of the church (24yr) dressed up as a woman during one of the services. Though an athletic/muscular man in drag usually sends shivers down my spine anyway, I more than ever didn't agree with it due to the verse that states that it is sinful for men to dress like women, and the verse that prohibits men acting effeminately.

2. My thoughts vary with smoking. There's nothing against it in the Bible (as far as I know of) but I believe that anything that damages your body in a profound way is sinful, due to our bodies supposedly being temples of the blessed Holy Spirit. Moreover, we aren't supposed to be mastered by anything.

3. One other problem I had was when our pastor preached. He was talking about the verse on people who aren't Christian taking part in communion. I try to follow the Bible 100%, and thus believe that if I'm not baptised, it is a sin to consume the body and blood of Christ. He believes that it doesn't matter and that it's something all can participate in (I attend a Pentecostal church, not the crazy ones).

4. I've been having issues in the church of late due to poor communication, in which I'm liable for a few hurt hearts. However, their process was completely incorrect. Instead of taking me in private etc. like the verse says, they accosted me in front of the church. Is it a sin not to follow proper procedure? Moreover, I noticed unneeded slander, accusations, and mockery in what they said.

Those are some of the lower tier things I can think of. I already know what side all the more serious sins are in the Bible. So, am I right, or am I being judgemental? I know everyone struggles with one thing or another at times, but there is a difference between wilful and willing sin.

Click to expand...

Your initial question of 'is it sinful' MUST be based on the unchanging moral and ethical standards of Gods Word and nothing else . So here are the answers with that in mind :

1. You have determined correctly that it is sin for this occur. It shouldnt be done even in jest , for, the N.T. also says to avoid any semblence/representation of evil (immorality, perversion, lewd behavior, etc..) . Such practices are also tacky to be occuring in church and have no place. And so, it is wrong for the church to be tolerant of this. So far, im concluding this particular church is carnal minded / apathetic to some level / misguided .

2. Smoking and drinking in moderation , are questionable acitivities as to whether they are truly sin or not. Certainly, each can get out of hand and become an addiction not being able to do without it ; God wants us to stay in control of our behavior, actions, choices and not be controlled by them. From a purely scientific factual standpoint, smoking cigarettes regularly has been proven to cause health problems. Drinking in moderation, has not. Excessive habitual drinking has.

3. The biblical standard is for Christians only to partake in communion and only if you are not holding a grudge against another fellow Christian. In that case, you are to go to that person and make amends before partaking in communion. The purpose of Communion is as a rememberance of the one and only blood sacrifice Christ made for Oneself. So, unbelievers shouldnt partake in it since they havent recieved Christ (yet) . Also, Baptism is not a prerequisite for taking Communion , for, a person may be new to the Faith and hasnt had time to be Baptized yet . Lastly, ONLY Christs atonement and recieving of that unto Ones sins, is what constitutes salvation and nothing else. Baptism is the other Christ ordained sacrament we do and it is for the Believer to publicly PROCLAIM and IDENTIFY with having made Christ Lord of their life and from the blood of Christ which has washed away all sin. (Not baptismal water, but Christs blood alone) .

4. Yes, it is always a sin not to conform to what Gods Word instructs. In the N.T., it specifically in the book of James says :' He who knows the good they ought to do but doesnt do it, sins' . Foul, vile, slanderous talk is also prohibited in scripture. Church Officials are to use respectful language when disciplining/chastising another ..and its supposed to be in in love so that person can be restored in his soul . You were therefore mistreated and they also mishandled / was apathetic toward, Gods Word in publicly exposing you -- that is always the last step in the process of confrontation of a Christian as so stated in Matthew 18 .The intital step should have been for ONE person to take you aside and lovingly inquire as to your actions and to give you respect in explaining .

Did that help ? I trust so.

On this last incident that occured to you, it would be enough to make me want to leave that church and look for a more healthy well balanced church to attend.

As you say, these may be "lower tier" problems. I'd answer your question by saying that not everything is a sin; but a lot of those things that are not can still be wrong.

A church that does all this would send me looking for another, quite apart from whether or not some of what you've described rises to the level of sins.

jjust19 said:

Hey everyone. I'm asking this question due to being a tad confused on whether my church is truly following Christ or not. For I've seen them do/say a few things that alarm me as an aspiring Christian (though I'm considered Christian, I'm not until I break an addiction). So, not knowing what's what, I thought I'd ask a collective group of Christians. So here is what I disagreed with:

1. One of the male members of the church (24yr) dressed up as a woman during one of the services. Though an athletic/muscular man in drag usually sends shivers down my spine anyway, I more than ever didn't agree with it due to the verse that states that it is sinful for men to dress like women, and the verse that prohibits men acting effeminately.

2. My thoughts vary with smoking. There's nothing against it in the Bible (as far as I know of) but I believe that anything that damages your body in a profound way is sinful, due to our bodies supposedly being temples of the blessed Holy Spirit. Moreover, we aren't supposed to be mastered by anything.

3. One other problem I had was when our pastor preached. He was talking about the verse on people who aren't Christian taking part in communion. I try to follow the Bible 100%, and thus believe that if I'm not baptised, it is a sin to consume the body and blood of Christ. He believes that it doesn't matter and that it's something all can participate in (I attend a Pentecostal church, not the crazy ones).

4. I've been having issues in the church of late due to poor communication, in which I'm liable for a few hurt hearts. However, their process was completely incorrect. Instead of taking me in private etc. like the verse says, they accosted me in front of the church. Is it a sin not to follow proper procedure? Moreover, I noticed unneeded slander, accusations, and mockery in what they said.

Those are some of the lower tier things I can think of. I already know what side all the more serious sins are in the Bible. So, am I right, or am I being judgemental? I know everyone struggles with one thing or another at times, but there is a difference between wilful and willing sin.

Click to expand...

I would want to ask the question why are you trying to compile a list of accusations you can use against your brothers and sisters? It seems to be the case that the eldership of your church has chosen to take issue with some of the behavior you've chosen to display.

If the point of your post here, is to get a list of accusations based on the testimony of two or more faithful witnesses then I'm very hesitant to give it to you.

I'd like to ask the members of your church what problems exactly they have with you?

Be careful with the trap of projection, seeing your own sins in others. Willingly or unconsciously failing to examine your own short comings instead projecting them onto others.

Yes you know the list you've compiled is wrong even sinful in part but what is the problem that the other members have with you?
Perhaps you need to pause at this point and look inward. Seek the Holy Spirit, search your heart and bring to the surface any short comings.
If your out of touch with the church body then any accusations you level against them will have little or no significant effect and may even be detrimental.

jjust19 said:

Hey everyone. I'm asking this question due to being a tad confused on whether my church is truly following Christ or not. For I've seen them do/say a few things that alarm me as an aspiring Christian (though I'm considered Christian, I'm not until I break an addiction). So, not knowing what's what, I thought I'd ask a collective group of Christians.

Click to expand...

You are either a Christian or you're not. God does not require you to stop anything to be a believer. You have to be a believer BEFORE you can stop an addiction. Otherwise, you are trying to do it by your own strength, which is nearly impossible. Call yourself a Christian if that's what you are. Just that declaration alone can give you the strength to quit

The rest of the post I would have to have the whole story on before I could comment

Dunban said:

C.S. Lewis, the evangelical champion, smoked cigars, I believe.

Click to expand...

You need to take into account the fact that when he was alive not as much was known about how harmful smoking is.