More Questions/Comments/Thoughts about Lutheranism

Parogar · Jul 17, 2013

EDIT: THIS POST IS INTENDED FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT LUTHERANISM, WHICH I AM INTERESTED IN JOINING. IT IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO BREAK ANY RULES WHATSOEVER. THESE ARE PURELY INQUISITIVE POSTINGS.

I wanted to continue this thread, because the other one was immensely helpful to me, but it had to close.

I'll just jump right back in without preamble and start with an ongoing issue I have with Lutheranism.

Namely, its view towards homosexuals.

Now, for the record, I am straight, but I have many gay friends. With that said, let me jump into why I have an issue.

The bible does in fact make it clear that men having sex with other men is against God's word. Yes, it DOES say that. But there's a difference between having gay sex and being gay.

My biggest problem with Lutherans (and many other Christians) is that they assume that being gay is a choice--it's not. Having gay sex IS a choice, engaging in gay activities IS a choice, but BEING gay isn't.

As I said, many of my friends are gay, and some are among the most honest people I have ever met in my life. One of them went through one of those barbaric "Christian conversion" programs, and it did nothing but mentally scar him.

The fact is that it can't possibly be a sin to BE a homosexual, and no where in the entire bible does it say that such is the case; it merely condemns the acting upon such things.

I also find it very unfair and cruel when people say that it's a choice (to simply be gay). It's not. When did you or I consciously decide to be straight?

At any rate, I'd like some confirmation from the Lutherans here as to whether or not you view homosexuality as a sin, or whether or not you separate it from the act.

alexnbethmom · Jul 17, 2013

actually, you are quite right. being gay, in and of itself, without action on it, is not a sin, per se. the sin is thinking about sex with one of the same sex (but that goes the same for a straight person who is not married - lust is lust, regardless of who or what the object is), and actually having sex with one of the same sex.

the difference is, that marriage was meant for one man and one woman - that is the biblical institution of marriage - and because 2 people of the same sex cannot get married in the biblical sense, what they are doing is committing adultery, which is a sin.

it's the same for a straight couple who live together and participate in acts that are meant for married couples - they are committing adultery and that's a sin.

homosexual people who engage in homosexual acts and believe that they are not doing anything wrong are unrepentant, and an unrepentant sin cannot be forgiven. same thing for the straight couple who refuses to get married, who think they are doing nothing wrong, and continue to commit adultery.

actually being gay, knowing they are attracted to the same sex but not lusting in their hearts or minds, and not actually engaging in these acts, is not really a sin.

i hope that helps you out some....

Parogar · Jul 17, 2013

alexnbethmom said:
actually, you are quite right. being gay, in and of itself, without action on it, is not a sin, per se. the sin is thinking about sex with one of the same sex (but that goes the same for a straight person who is not married - lust is lust, regardless of who or what the object is), and actually having sex with one of the same sex.

the difference is, that marriage was meant for one man and one woman - that is the biblical institution of marriage - and because 2 people of the same sex cannot get married in the biblical sense, what they are doing is committing adultery, which is a sin.

it's the same for a straight couple who live together and participate in acts that are meant for married couples - they are committing adultery and that's a sin.

homosexual people who engage in homosexual acts and believe that they are not doing anything wrong are unrepentant, and an unrepentant sin cannot be forgiven. same thing for the straight couple who refuses to get married, who think they are doing nothing wrong, and continue to commit adultery.

actually being gay, knowing they are attracted to the same sex but not lusting in their hearts or minds, and not actually engaging in these acts, is not really a sin.

i hope that helps you out some....

YES! This was VERY helpful!

My #1 issue is with people who condemn my friends (one of whom is actually a Lutheran, but in the other church, forget the name) and say that unless he becomes straight and starts liking girls, then he's not being repentant.

His family sent him to a camp somewhere, and they attempted to convert him to being straight.

I was actually just exchanging PMs with Lili, because my view on it is similar to alcoholism.

My father is an alcoholic, and he can't touch the stuff--but he'll always be an alcoholic. While you may say that the choices he made in his life led up to the state, the fact of the matter is, as it stands now, he doesn't have a choice on whether or not he wants to be an alcoholic. He simply is one, and his choice is on whether or not to drink.

Parogar · Jul 17, 2013

@Alexnbethmom

The reason this is important to me is that, while it may seem like a mere discussion of semantics, it's what I needed to hear to feel more confident about Lutheranism and Christianity as a whole.

I suppose it's kind of like me and my hatred of so many people: I can't control the fact that so many people in this world are going to make me angry. But I can control allowing that anger to form to hate, and to think hateful thoughts about them--that part's on me.

I can't stop the instant, heat-of-the-moment anger I feel towards such a great many people. But being nasty and allowing myself to hate them is always my own fault.

Parogar · Jul 17, 2013

I have another similar, but different question.

I am in a monogamous relationship, and I confess to committing adultery...a lot (sorry! I'm just being honest)

My question is this: would it be even worse a sin if the adultery wasn't monogamous? I'm not asking this to excuse or alleviate the severity of adultery. I'm asking simply out of curiosity.

Suppose I am going to commit adultery, and I decide that I may as well cheat on my partner (I'd never do this!) because I'm committing adultery anyway. Is that worse a sin? If so, does it say in the bible that such is the case?

DaRev · Jul 17, 2013

Parogar said:
I have another similar, but different question.

I am in a monogamous relationship, and I confess to committing adultery...a lot (sorry! I'm just being honest)

My question is this: would it be even worse a sin if the adultery wasn't monogamous? I'm not asking this to excuse or alleviate the severity of adultery. I'm asking simply out of curiosity.

Suppose I am going to commit adultery, and I decide that I may as well cheat on my partner (I'd never do this!) because I'm committing adultery anyway. Is that worse a sin? If so, does it say in the bible that such is the case?

Adultery is adultery. It's not pleasing to God.

alexnbethmom · Jul 17, 2013

parogar, i think a question similar to this was asked in the other thread, and basically, what it boils down to is, whether you are going 2 miles over the speed limit or commit genocide on millions of people, they are all the same size sin to God. there is no "lesser" sin or "worse" sin, sin is just sin.

Parogar · Jul 18, 2013

alexnbethmom said:
parogar, i think a question similar to this was asked in the other thread, and basically, what it boils down to is, whether you are going 2 miles over the speed limit or commit genocide on millions of people, they are all the same size sin to God. there is no "lesser" sin or "worse" sin, sin is just sin.

I don't fully understand this point. Well...not that I don't understand it, but I'm not sure if you mean it literally.

Do you literally mean that there are no varying degrees of how bad a sin is? I always thought there were cardinal sins and this and that. How does it work?

Also, I was reading another thread where someone was interested in Lutheranism, and this person already knew all the basics about Christianity before bothering you guys about these very simple questions.

I was wondering if you'd all prefer that I didn't bother you about the basic Christianity stuff because I feel bad for asking all these questions. I know that the questions for Lutherans should be the Lutheran-specific stuff, but I don't even understand most of the basic fundamentals.

alexnbethmom · Jul 18, 2013

no no no - don't ever feel bad about asking questions!! we are here to help you!! trust me, i get how hard it can be to wrap your brain around a lot of this!!

ok, so - the whole "cardinal sin" thing is actually a RCC thing, that is something they teach, "cardinal sin" versus "mortal sin" and what have you - that teaching isn't biblical.

ok, so, i'm guessing that you've heard of and read about the 10 commandments:

1. you shall have no other god before Me
2. you shall not misuse the name of the Lord (use the Lord's name in vain)
3. observe the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy
4. honor your father and your mother
5. you shall not murder
6. you shall not commit adultery
7. you shall not steal
8. you shall not bear false witness (lie about someone/something)
9. you shall not covet your neighbor's house (basically scheming to take away anyone else's property)
10. you shall not covet your neighbor's wife (scheme to take someone else's wife away from them so you can have their wife), servants, etc.

ok - so, the 5th commandment is "you shall not murder" - BUT, did you know, that if you get mad at someone (say, someone cuts you off in traffic) and you call that person a moron, or something, in anger, that you've broken the 5th commandment? calling someone a moron or any other name in anger is the same as having taken an AK47 and blowing their face off. it's all the same to God.

say you're taking a test, and you don't know the answer to a question, so you carefully look at the person next to you and copy what they put for an answer - that's stealing, and you've just broken the 7th commandment - just the same as if you had used a gun and robbed a bank. it's all the same to God.

i think a really good place for you to start would be to read Luther's Small Catechism (if you haven't already) - the kids in confirmation class read this book to prepare them for being confirmed, and it talks all about the commandments and "what does this mean" (good Lutheran question - so we are enjoying your questions!! you have a lot of "what does this mean" kind of questions!!), which i think would help clarify what the commandments are and what they mean to God, and for us in our daily lives.

i hope that helps!!

Parogar · Jul 19, 2013

I'm not challenging you or calling you wrong, so what I'm about to say, I hope isn't taken that way.

But basically, that's some really difficult stuff to cope with.

alexnbethmom said:
no no no - don't ever feel bad about asking questions!! we are here to help you!! trust me, i get how hard it can be to wrap your brain around a lot of this!!

ok, so - the whole "cardinal sin" thing is actually a RCC thing, that is something they teach, "cardinal sin" versus "mortal sin" and what have you - that teaching isn't biblical.

ok, so, i'm guessing that you've heard of and read about the 10 commandments:

1. you shall have no other god before Me
2. you shall not misuse the name of the Lord (use the Lord's name in vain)
3. observe the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy
4. honor your father and your mother
5. you shall not murder
6. you shall not commit adultery
7. you shall not steal
8. you shall not bear false witness (lie about someone/something)
9. you shall not covet your neighbor's house (basically scheming to take away anyone else's property)
10. you shall not covet your neighbor's wife (scheme to take someone else's wife away from them so you can have their wife), servants, etc.

ok - so, the 5th commandment is "you shall not murder" - BUT, did you know, that if you get mad at someone (say, someone cuts you off in traffic) and you call that person a moron, or something, in anger, that you've broken the 5th commandment? calling someone a moron or any other name in anger is the same as having taken an AK47 and blowing their face off. it's all the same to God.

say you're taking a test, and you don't know the answer to a question, so you carefully look at the person next to you and copy what they put for an answer - that's stealing, and you've just broken the 7th commandment - just the same as if you had used a gun and robbed a bank. it's all the same to God.

i think a really good place for you to start would be to read Luther's Small Catechism (if you haven't already) - the kids in confirmation class read this book to prepare them for being confirmed, and it talks all about the commandments and "what does this mean" (good Lutheran question - so we are enjoying your questions!! you have a lot of "what does this mean" kind of questions!!), which i think would help clarify what the commandments are and what they mean to God, and for us in our daily lives.

i hope that helps!!

LilLamb219 · Jul 19, 2013

Parogar said:
I'm not challenging you or calling you wrong, so what I'm about to say, I hope isn't taken that way.

But basically, that's some really difficult stuff to cope with.

It's difficult because that's the hammer of the Law. It's meant to accuse us. Works, huh?

DaRev · Jul 19, 2013

Luke 18:10-14

10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Parogar · Jul 19, 2013

DaRev said:
Luke 18:10-14

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get. 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner! 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.

What ended up happening to the other man?

Luther073082 · Jul 19, 2013

Parogar said:
What ended up happening to the other man?

The Pharisee or the tax collector?

The pharisee was not justified before God because he thought himself too holy.

His sin was thinking that he on his own was worthy of God's love.

The tax collector was justified, he honestly asked God for a forgiveness that he knew he did not deserve.

DeoVolente · Jul 21, 2013

In response to your original question, homosexuality is indeed sin. The Word of God and the Lutheran confessions are very clear on this topic.

Also, you mentioned that being homosexual is not a choice. Can you identify the specific gene or chromosome which determines a person's sexuality? Curious.

There exists, in my opinion, several factors which play a part in the perversion of one's sexuality/the attraction to persons of their own gender - however, genetics is not one of those factors.

Parogar · Jul 24, 2013

Luther073082 said:
The Pharisee or the tax collector?

The pharisee was not justified before God because he thought himself too holy.

His sin was thinking that he on his own was worthy of God's love.

The tax collector was justified, he honestly asked God for a forgiveness that he knew he did not deserve.

I know, but what ended up happening to him (the one who was unworthy). Did he go to hell? Get killed?

Was he never saved? From what it sounded like, he wasn't that bad of a person. Did God show him mercy?

What did it actually mean to "be worthy."

Parogar · Jul 24, 2013

I'm still very interested in Lutheranism, but the one issue I'm really having is reconciling the attitude that Lutherans have towards members of the LGBT community.

I was thinking a lot about this today, and I realize that many of you have told me that all sin is the same in God's eyes--no exceptions.

If this is true, then why are the vast, overwhelming majority of Christians so focused on the sins of gay people? Doesn't this drown out the Jesus's more important message of love and acceptance? And I'm not preaching to you guys (I understand the rules) I'm just asking.

Basically, why isn't it possible to be a Christian and accept everyone else for who they are?

DaRev · Jul 24, 2013

Parogar said:
I'm still very interested in Lutheranism, but the one issue I'm really having is reconciling the attitude that Lutherans have towards members of the LGBT community.

I was thinking a lot about this today, and I realize that many of you have told me that all sin is the same in God's eyes--no exceptions.

If this is true, then why are the vast, overwhelming majority of Christians so focused on the sins of gay people? Doesn't this drown out the Jesus's more important message of love and acceptance? And I'm not preaching to you guys (I understand the rules) I'm just asking.

Basically, why isn't it possible to be a Christian and accept everyone else for who they are?

Because we can never accept sin as OK. We don't want anyone to be condemned to hell. Those who live in unrepentant sin are destined for hell. Christians don't want anyone to be condemned to hell. How can a Christian be accepting of someone's unrepentant sin? That would be like saying that sin doesn't matter, that it's OK, that it's pleasing to God. It isn't and never will be.

Jesus' message never included accepting sin. His message was to repent of sin. To accept sin is to go against Christ.

Parogar · Jul 24, 2013

DaRev said:
Because we can never accept sin as OK. We don't want anyone to be condemned to hell. Those who live in unrepentant sin are destined for hell. Christians don't want anyone to be condemned to hell. How can a Christian be accepting of someone's unrepentant sin? That would be like saying that sin doesn't matter, that it's OK, that it's pleasing to God. It isn't and never will be.

Jesus' message never included accepting sin. His message was to repent of sin. To accept sin is to go against Christ.

I understand that, DaRev, but what concerns me is when that rule isn't followed equally for everybody.

For example: statistics show that 50% of American marriages end in divorce, and of that 50% roughly 42% remarry--and this is across the board.

If this is true, then, even under the most optimistic circumstances, at LEAST one out of every three confessional Lutherans who have married have ended their marriage and are now remarried to someone else.

Since the bible doesn't recognize divorce, then that means every single one of those Confessional Lutherans are unrepentant and living in a permanent and perpetual state of adultery.

How is it fair that these people are not dealt the same harshness as gays are?

Parogar · Jul 24, 2013

By the way, I don't mean this to be offensive. I'd just rest must more easily knowing that everyone plays by the same rules, and that there's no one being unfairly let off the hook when another group has to have their sin elevated.

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