Icons and the last few years on CF

Evidence in comparing the SOP with member's posts that reveal differently should explain why members can spot the difference between claimers and members.

Hi Tish,

I do so appreciate you and all the work you do. Sometimes I just don't understand exactly what you are doing. Now that I do, I see how right you are and why our Father has chosen you for this ministry...

(The member is eating crow with a little BBQ sauce. )

Spectacular job! We can all learn from your patience and focus. What clarity of thought and purpose that brings us to this next step. I can only suppose that this is a progression going forward based on scripture rather than backwards based on forum history or politics! I also applaud your policy of inclusion of those that believe differently than us, without compromising our beliefs! It is only right.

There are a couple of point of contention that have developed into real issues here. They are by definition, anti-inclusive. I'm sure you have heard them before: Torah is only for the Jews and the Law was nailed to the Cross, i. e., Gentiles are not obligated to keep Torah, and believers in Messiah are not obligated to keep Torah. I would like these items more directly addressed as they keep popping up like weeds of dissention and division here. It would be my preference that three things be clearly stated in the SoP, to the end that all TO Gentiles continue to be included in all discussions in this forum: (I'm sure that the lawyers in the forum might have suggestion as to how better word these thoughts, but here goes...)

1) We believe that neither Yah nor His Word contradicts itself and that Torah is the foundation by which all scripture is measured;
2) Torah (The Law, The Books of Moses) is not invalidated in any way, until the heavens and the earth pass away; and Torah is binding on all that believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and follow the teachings of Messiah Y'shua;
3) Any statement or teaching that Torah is not for Gentiles, that Torah Observance requires an invitation or that Torah has been invalidated, by or since the crucifixion of Christ, will not be tolerated here.

The above are foundational beliefs of this forum. Any posts containing anti-Torah statements or teachings; or anti-Torah campaigns that link to those types of anti-Torah teachings and teachers, will be removed and the poster may be subject to staff action.

talmidim said:

Hi Tish,

I do so appreciate you and all the work you do. Sometimes I just don't understand exactly what you are doing. Now that I do, I see how right you are and why our Father has chosen you for this ministry...

(The member is eating crow with a little BBQ sauce. )

Spectacular job! We can all learn from your patience and focus. What clarity of thought and purpose that brings us to this next step. I can only suppose that this is a progression going forward based on scripture rather than backwards based on forum history or politics! I also applaud your policy of inclusion of those that believe differently than us, without compromising our beliefs! It is only right.

There are a couple of point of contention that have developed into real issues here. They are by definition, anti-inclusive. I'm sure you have heard them before: Torah is only for the Jews and the Law was nailed to the Cross, i. e., Gentiles are not obligated to keep Torah, and believers in Messiah are not obligated to keep Torah. I would like these items more directly addressed as they keep popping up like weeds of dissention and division here. It would be my preference that three things be clearly stated in the SoP, to the end that all TO Gentiles continue to be included in all discussions in this forum: (I'm sure that the lawyers in the forum might have suggestion as to how better word these thoughts, but here goes...)

1) We believe that neither Yah nor His Word contradicts itself and that Torah is the foundation by which all scripture is measured;
2) Torah (The Law, The Books of Moses) is not invalidated in any way, until the heavens and the earth pass away; and Torah is binding on all that believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and follow the teachings of Messiah Y'shua;
3) Any statement or teaching that Torah is not for Gentiles, that Torah Observance requires an invitation or that Torah has been invalidated, by or since the crucifixion of Christ, will not be tolerated here.

The above are foundational beliefs of this forum. Any posts containing anti-Torah statements or teachings; or anti-Torah campaigns that link to those types of anti-Torah teachings and teachers, will be removed and the poster may be subject to staff action.

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I'm not a lawyer but have spent many years dealing with international legal agreements & banking papers as well as drawing up forms of words that, though condensed, do properly summarise the needs of the principal. In an earlier post I suggested these words as an alternative to what we now have as an 'additional' piece to our basic SoP - they are shorter but more to the point and they do convey the meaning, I think, of what you have said, when read with the original SoP:


"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and may not teach or debate against it.

Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action."

Tishri is holding these in hand at the moment. I also suggested changing the Sticky title for the SoP to read (in bold red): Important: Please read this before posting in these forums. My argument was that very few visitors see the sticky, or know what an SoP actually is, because it simply doesn't stand out. By changing the wording and the colour it is less easy for them to say they missed it!

Hey! Thanks for responding, Avodat. I was thinking of your post when I wrote this one, but I couldn't find yours. (gotta link?) I just wanted to make sure that these points

1) We believe that neither Yah nor His Word contradicts itself and that Torah is the foundation by which all scripture is measured;
2) Torah (The Law, The Books of Moses) is not invalidated in any way, until the heavens and the earth pass away; and Torah is binding on all that believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and follow the teachings of Messiah Y'shua;
3) Any statement or teaching that Torah is not for Gentiles, that Torah Observance requires an invitation or that Torah has been invalidated, by or since the crucifixion of Christ, will not be tolerated here.

The above are foundational beliefs of this forum. Any posts containing anti-Torah statements or teachings; or anti-Torah campaigns that link to those types of anti-Torah teachings and teachers, will be removed and the poster may be subject to staff action.

Click to expand...

were specifically addressed and out front, not something inferred or that 'could be concluded from...'. There has been so much liberty taken with 'level of observance' and the like; I was concerned. But like I said, I couldn't find your post on forum rules, so I didn't know exactly what was going into the changes. Still don't. Do you?

Avodat said:

I'm not a lawyer but have spent many years dealing with international legal agreements & banking papers as well as drawing up forms of words that, though condensed, do properly summarise the needs of the principal. In an earlier post I suggested these words as an alternative to what we now have as an 'additional' piece to our basic SoP - they are shorter but more to the point and they do convey the meaning, I think, of what you have said, when read with the original SoP:


"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and may not teach or debate against it.

Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action."

Tishri is holding these in hand at the moment. I also suggested changing the Sticky title for the SoP to read (in bold red): Important: Please read this before posting in these forums. My argument was that very few visitors see the sticky, or know what an SoP actually is, because it simply doesn't stand out. By changing the wording and the colour it is less easy for them to say they missed it!

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talmidim said:

Hey! Thanks for responding, Avodat. I was thinking of your post when I wrote this one, but I couldn't find yours. (gotta link?) I just wanted to make sure that these points were specifically addressed and out front, not something inferred or that 'could be concluded from...'. There has been so much liberty taken with 'level of observance' and the like; I was concerned. But like I said, I couldn't find your post on forum rules, so I didn't know exactly what was going into the changes. Still don't. Do you?

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I have no idea how Tishri will work it all out. Being too specific can cause problems as well - someone turns up and says that you have not mentioned them so they are ok to do what they want! Avoid specifics and go for qualifying beliefs - they must believe that Torah observance is valid, whoever they are, as the rest of the SoP also says. If they don't believe that they are not banned from posting, but they are banned from debating or teaching anything. Anyone working against the generally held beliefs will be subject to Mod's action. Making the SoP more obvious will root out a number because they cannot argue it is hard to find!

ContraMundum said:

We've had all kinds here, and years ago One Law'ers were hardly represented. Most of the posters here have historically been mainstream MJ with a charismatic or evangelical underlying theology. The whole "Observant" thing (whatever that means in real terms) is pretty recent.

The issue is completely a waste of time. No one really wants to address the brass tacks here- what does it mean to be Torah observant? If someone says "well, you don't need tzitzis" another will accuse him or her of being "against Torah". This is fanatic madness and it needs to stop. We're being asked to turn on each other like the Muslims do over the laws of the religion. I'm against tearing communities apart for religion.

In Torah, there is a learning curve and observance is very much a matter of personal development and choice. I hate to say it but many of the Gentile posters here just don't seem to understand that, nor do many want it. They tend to bring the denominational mentality of the Western church into MJism- that is, they want written rules and complete conformity and they want it immediately for all. "Our way or the Highway". Posters from Jewish backgrounds tend to see this as folly, trust me. We all talk to each other and we all are pretty mystified at the spectacle that goes on when this topic rears it head. Whether we're MJ or RJ we tend to see this whole kvetch as ridiculous. We tend to see the value of the Torah but also know the being frum is not easy. What's more, is that we tend to bring the tolerance of our way of life into our MJism, so all this fighting and condemnation just seems so...unJewish/unChristian.

Fact: pretty much everyone regular posting here believes in the Torah, its relevance, and its immutable authority. The conversation should therefore always only focus on continuing dialogue on how the Torah is lived in this life. Rather than kick each other- how about supporting each other?

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What you said brought to mind something which may be imperative to note when it comes to Torah Observance - and that's the realization that essentially ALL MJ members seek to be TORAH Observant.

Whether it be with members of UMJC/MJAA associations noting where Jews/Gentiles can enjoy the Lord together (while recognizing distinctions between them in the Torah itself and not condemning Gentiles who don't live a Jewish lifestyle - or noting where Gentiles can convert/become part of the Israelite Nation ( ...like Caleb and Joshua did )

Or with One Law groups seeking to note that Jews/Gentiles were meant to obey the same laws and look the same at ALL points (from Sabbath to Dietary Laws and other issues).

Or with Divine Invitation groups who encourage walking in/appreciating Torah Observance while not demanding Gentiles all over the world live as they do in order to be accepted before the Lord....

The reality is that all are focused on observing the Torah as they understand it - and all wish to be respected, despite differences in ideology. When we learn to stop assuming the worse of those disagreeing with us - and instead choose to acknowledge differences in understand and realize all have a heart to honor God's Law, then things can go more smoothly.

With that in mind as you've noted, I think it's imperative to keep certain things in mind when it comes to saying others want to have a forum inclusive of as many MJ as possible - and yet not ignoring the fact that all MJ members are OBSERVANT - with it being the case that it really cannot be said that some members are "more observant" than others since the reality is that there is....and will always be...disagreement on what is or isn't necessary in our times to observe - with others feeling what they do to be "more" than another, even though the same people look back at them/say the same.

In order to make things truly inclusive from a global perspective while also avoiding setting up a system where only those of ONE frame of thought are protected/respected while those not having the same views are mishandled, it is wisdom having the SOP keeping it focused on simply respecting people proud to advocate for Torah Observance - while also having sub forums set up for debate on the specifics on how things play out/what the differences are (i.e. Having forum for One Law to debate on their observance with those in Two House - or having someone who observes from a "Divine Invitation" perspective or that of the UMJC/MJAA debate with another who may be One Law ...and of course, having sub-forums for others in One Law to debate amongst one another as to what it means to be under "One Law" and the like).

IMHO, there should no forums or main forum allowed for saying (as was noted earlier in the rules) that other Messianics are "less Messianic" or less "Messianic Jewish" than another because of differences - as that is a subjective battle/one based on the preferences of whatever one group sees as necessary....and with that would also go the issue of not claiming all inclusive comments of Messianics in certain camps (i.e. claiming "Any Messianic who claims to be Christian supports all the mess done by Christians & cannot be Messianic Jewish!!!" ...or saying "ALL One Laws are legalistic!!!!!" or "All Two House HATE Jewish people/try to push them out" since not all are the same and have never been).

Within the main forum, since the goal is general fellowship threads, the main forum should really push for that - and with debate between Messianics, those things should be pushed aggressively in the Sub-forums designed for them - so as to not give visitors the wrong impression of what kind of discussions are to be occurring in the main forum.

Additionally, with the SOP, it would probably be a good thing to include the following so as to avoid the cancer of judging other's observance/slandering other Messianics who differ from us:

talmidim said:

Hey! Thanks for responding, Avodat. I was thinking of your post when I wrote this one, but I couldn't find yours. (gotta link?) I just wanted to make sure that these points were specifically addressed and out front, not something inferred or that 'could be concluded from...'. There has been so much liberty taken with 'level of observance' and the like; I was concerned. But like I said, I couldn't find your post on forum rules, so I didn't know exactly what was going into the changes. Still don't. Do you?

Click to expand...

This is not unique to MJ and something we would like all members to do before posting in the forums. Once a member posts a few times in a forum and has been reminded to seek out the direction of the SOP or SOF, and doesn't and continues to post, then things change from a matter of innocence and become a matter of ignoring respective guidance. Do you agree?

Tishri1 said:

I like it too
Torah Application

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Cool..

Also, if I may say..

Since the main forum is set up primarily for fellowship (if I understood what was asked for years ago) and keeping things positive, then perhaps it'd be good to even have a sub-forum for airing grievances others may have - be it within the Messianic Jewish movement or Churches working with the Messianic movement.

A good idea for this would something akin to what was noted earlier entitled "Torah Bashers" - except it'd be for simply airing struggles others may have and discussing solutions as well. You could call it "Messy Antics" - or Torah Venting" a forum designed for others to specifically go at things that bother them and be honest on it.

Gxg (G²);63615275 said:

Cool..

Also, if I may say..

Since the main forum is set up primarily for fellowship (if I understood what was asked for years ago) and keeping things positive, then perhaps it'd be good to even have a sub-forum for airing grievances others may have - be it within the Messianic Jewish movement or Churches working with the Messianic movement.

A good idea for this would something akin to what was noted earlier entitled "Torah Bashers" - except it'd be for simply airing struggles others may have and discussing solutions as well. You could call it "Messy Antics" - or Torah Venting" a forum designed for others to specifically go at things that bother them and be honest on it.

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That's a great idea since there is different views on what a Messianic believer is, what Messianic Judaism is. There are even church folk that celebrate Holidays and such.

mpossoff said:

Sorry to say but Messianic Judaism is defined. I've posted some responses from a UMJC Rabbi. Now if this forum doesn't want to be associated with Messianic Judaism that's OK! There are organizations like the CTMOC that teach Torah is for all equal obligation. They are not associated with Messianic Judaism. If you read their SoF etc they talk about Messianic community where as Messianic Judaism talks about the Jewish Messianic community because it's a Jewish organization to the Jews primarily and they are pretty much in line with the Jewish community about Torah obligation s.

Whether Messianic Judaism is right or wrong and whether the likes of CTMOC are right or wrong is not the question.

It's what Messianic Judaism is since this forum is called Messianic Judaism. Even FFOZ has changed to be more in line with Messianic Judaism. Once they were sort of in line with the likes of CTMOC.

Just accept the facts.

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Who made UMJC/MJAA/CTMOC or the "rabbis" from these organizations my masters and ordained them as the final word as to what is or is not Messianic Judaism? Messiah is my only Rabbi (Mt 23:8).

Many within the RCC would also adamantly insist that their church represents the true, original form of "Christianity". Do their papal bulls, pronouncements, anathemas, &c. make those denominations descended from the RCC less legitimately "Christian"?

Would you also stand against the prophets of old, sent by YHWH to reform the established brand of Judaism? Would you preach against those prophets to "just accept the facts" that they're illegitimate?

Or, from another perspective, should neighboring synagogues or congregations dictate the identity of my synagogue or congregation?

The fact is, whether or not the regulars here in this forum align with the UMJC/MJAA/&c., we recognize that we have our own brand of Messianic Judaism. (Each Messianic also has their own brand of Messianic Judaism - I highly doubt that any individual would be in complete accord with another individual on all points of doctrine and theology. Some have greater differences, some have lesser.) The point is, there are variations, even within Messianic Judaism, and it's up to this little "virtual synagogue" on this corner of the Internet to define ourselves as to how we relate to the greater body of Messianics in the world. It's not up to sister organizations to define us. Yes, we can and should hear their advice, but that's all they can provide - advice, not authoritarian pronouncements. Ultimately, that responsibility for this local group's identity lies within the individuals within this local group, with the final decision left to the leaders of this group (the moderators).

Tishri1 said:

That was started in 2011

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Yes I know, but that reply was given just a few months ago

4th March 2013, 10:28 PM

Avodat, I understand the strategy. But I'm not sure of your position on these particular items. So just for the sake of clarity, do you agree with the specific statements and prohibitions that I wrote? If not, where do you disagree and why?

1) We believe that neither Yah nor His Word contradicts itself and that Torah is the foundation by which all scripture is measured;
2) Torah (The Law, The Books of Moses) is not invalidated in any way, until the heavens and the earth pass away; and Torah is binding on all that believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and follow the teachings of Messiah Y'shua;
3) Any statement or teaching that Torah is not for Gentiles, that Torah Observance requires an invitation or that Torah has been invalidated, by or since the crucifixion of Christ, will not be tolerated here.

The above are foundational beliefs of this forum. Any posts containing anti-Torah statements or teachings; or anti-Torah campaigns that link to those types of anti-Torah teachings and teachers, will be removed and the poster may be subject to staff action.

Click to expand...

Avodat said:

I have no idea how Tishri will work it all out. Being too specific can cause problems as well - someone turns up and says that you have not mentioned them so they are ok to do what they want! Avoid specifics and go for qualifying beliefs - they must believe that Torah observance is valid, whoever they are, as the rest of the SoP also says. If they don't believe that they are not banned from posting, but they are banned from debating or teaching anything. Anyone working against the generally held beliefs will be subject to Mod's action. Making the SoP more obvious will root out a number because they cannot argue it is hard to find!

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Hi David,

I was telling Avodat that I could not find his post on the rules; his proposed changes. I wanted to compare what Avodat wrote earlier in this thread with what I was concerned were specific issues that needed to be spelled out. BTW, I still don't know which post that was. I still don't have a link.

But that aside, I agree with all you wrote. I was the one that suggested the all caps 'MUST READ BEFORE POSTING' thread title for the SoP. Avodat changed it (I think), bolded it, and made it RED! But I'm not sure where that is posted so I can't say for sure what he wrote. I still don't have a link.

I was reading the entire 15 pages of 40 posts per page when I got tired and took a nap. Still don't know where Avodat's post is.

sacerdote said:

This is not unique to MJ and something we would like all members to do before posting in the forums. Once a member posts a few times in a forum and has been reminded to seek out the direction of the SOP or SOF, and doesn't and continues to post, then things change from a matter of innocence and become a matter of ignoring respective guidance. Do you agree?

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Arghhh, I'm such a dummy sometimes! Sorry Avodat. I see now that you quoted your proposed changes.

Having reviewed them again, I still feel like there is a need to address these particular issues in a very bold and specific way. General statements are fine for committees that are in agreement on specifics. However, sometimes things need to be nailed down with very little wiggle room.

fer

netzarim said:

The fact is, whether or not the regulars here in this forum align with the UMJC/MJAA/&c., we recognize that we have our own brand of Messianic Judaism. (Each Messianic also has their own brand of Messianic Judaism - I highly doubt that any individual would be in complete accord with another individual on all points of doctrine and theology. Some have greater differences, some have lesser.)

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Well if one is aligned with a mainstream Messianic Jewish congregation and comes here with different views than the congregation... ?

Is it possible there are people here who are involved with a Messianic Jewish congregation that I posted quotes from the Rabbi.....but come here and have different views?

Let's be honest the MJAA and UMJC are pioneers in the Messianic Jewish movement and other groups split off because of stances that the MJAA and UMJC has taken. Whether their stance is right of wrong or whether the groups that split from the pioneers are right or wrong is irrelevant. You can't use the RCC as an example it's comparing apples to oranges. Unless you think traditional Judaism is the same way? Messianic Judaism is pretty much united with it's traditional Jewish brethren in certain things because they are part of the same community. Where right or wrong is irrelevant.

Let's be real honest here. The real pioneers of the MODERN Messianic movement were and are the Southern Baptists.

Tishri1 said:

Thanks

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Your welcome. You know, the easiest way to control "serial reporting" is to just remove the report button, and have members PM the Moderator instead. I've owned half a dozen message boards with heavy traffic and that solution has worked every time. Not sure why I didn't bring that up in the first place. I must be getting senile...lol

Good luck not going bonkers having to deal with all the "wanna-be-mods" in this thread. If you don't close this thread it will last until Mashiakh comes.

talmidim said:

Arghhh, I'm such a dummy sometimes! Sorry Avodat. I see now that you quoted your proposed changes.

Having reviewed them again, I still feel like there is a need to address these particular issues in a very bold and specific way. General statements are fine for committees that are in agreement on specifics. However, sometimes things need to be nailed down with very little wiggle room.

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Not a problem - Tishri will decide on what finally goes in, or not. I just offered my view, as others have

talmidim said:

Avodat, I understand the strategy. But I'm not sure of your position on these particular items. So just for the sake of clarity, do you agree with the specific statements and prohibitions that I wrote? If not, where do you disagree and why?

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I have no problem with what you wrote.