The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

Evergreen48 · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter said:
]You have not proved your assertion that Luke 16:19-31 was pagan mythology or that Jesus used pagan mythology.

I believe I did. Sorry its too hard for you to comprehend.

I wonder why you did not quote paragraph 6.
6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: concerning whom we have elsewhere given a more particular account, for the sake of those who seek after truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, just is thy judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. ...

There was no reason to quote paragraph 6, and it would just have taken up space unnecessarily. I quoted enough and left the link for you to read the rest of the commentary for yourself.

Where is the part that is supposed to be copied by Christians?
What the Greeks may have believed is not relevant unless you can show specific things which were supposedly copied which cannot be supported from scripture. You have not done that yet.

I did not say anything was "copied by Christians". You said that. The whole description and concept of Hades is pagan. It does not have any scriptural foundation at all. But apparently you think it does, so please cite the scripture or scriptures that you think gives a description of Hades such as what is found in the Luke 16 passages. You can not. The only place any kind of description of Hades is found is in Greek myth.

I'd be very careful about throwing around insults such as "willingly ignorant" if I was you.

That was not meant as an insult. To be "willingly ignorant" of something simply means that one chooses to ignore something that they know is there.
Why did you think it was an insult?

I proved to you that you were quoting Job 24:20 out-of-context and that it does not say what you claim it does.

You did not prove anything.. Just saying that you proved it was out of context does not make it true.

You said in effect that the passages meant the grave would only consume the wicked and that it was those who would be remembered no more. Furthermore, you asserted that it was the living who would not remember them, and not God. My answer to that was that everyone is remembered by someone who is living when they die, and, in effect, I asked you if you were trying to say that it is only those of whom he spoke in the preceding passages that the grave would consume. (I assume you meant by "the wicked", those whose deeds were recorded in the preceding verses, if not then you will have to tell me who it was that your were referring to.)

"There is no consciousness of anyone after they are dead and in the grave?" In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול]/sheol] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.[ . . .]
In the Septuagint Sheol is translated ᾅהחעhades.
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Both Isaiah and Ezekiel were prophets. Therefore they wrote in a prophetic language. How about in the preceding chapter (13) where he says concerning the 'day of the Lord' in the destruction of Babylon by the Medes and the Persians: 7. "Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:"

Do you think that the prophet meant that hands would literally be "faint" and that "every man's heart would literally melt" ?
8. "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."

Do you believe that the stars and the constellations literally did not give their light, and that the sun was literally darkened preceding the destruction of Babylon?

Isa. 55:12. "For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands."

Hills and mountains do not literally sing, and trees do not clap their hands. (mostly because they don't have hands to clap with)

So, your brave attempt at proving that there is consciousness after death for the 'unsaved' is fruitless.

So nothing but your own unsupported opinion. How much more of the NT do you throw out because it doesn't line up with your opinion?

An opinion does not have to be supported by anything other than the reasoning of the person who opines. You may take it or leave it. I repeat: NO WHERE IS IT FOUND THAT JESUS SAID THE WORDS IN THE PARABLE OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUZ. I know you don't like the fact that it is not said that Jesus said this, but never the less it is true. So deal with it and move on, and stop repeating yourself.

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

Nothing wrong with using such to enhance your understanding of koiné Greek. One does not have to agree with the commentator to take advantage of the 'historical linguistics' involved in their works.

Click to expand...

Der Alter said:

Interesting concept pick and choose what is/is not correct based on your own unsupported opinion

Click to expand...

Your reply makes no sense at all.

How utterly ridiculous is this. The church which was located at Rome did not have any more authority than any other church. The churches at Jerusalem, ALexandria, etc. were also catholic that is κατά ὅλος/kata holos, according to the whole. It was not until 1075 when Gregory VII unilaterally usurped authority that anything resembling the RCC came into existence.

No one said the church at Rome did have any more authority than any other church. There was a church at Rome in 1075, and it was Catholic, and it did have a Pope (also called a Bishop) who was in authority over it.

2000 thousand years +/- of church history. What do you have?

Intelligent reasoning of my own.

Der Alter said:
]I would not care to speculate on this unless I can read the entire thing in context.

See the following commentary.

Evergreen48 · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter said:
]I would not care to speculate on this unless I can read the entire thing in context.

John Lightfoots commentary on John 11: 11- 44. Please note the portion that has been 'bolded' and is in different color. It shows one more of the prevalent myths for which the Jews had no biblical support.
Verse 11
11. These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

[Sleepeth.] The apostles having heard the report that Lazarus was sick, and that Christ told them now that he was fallen asleep; they apprehend that the edge of the disease which had hitherto taken away all rest from him was now taken off; so that they say, "If he sleep, he shall do well": having not rightly understood the word our Saviour used. The fallacy of the word is not unpleasantly expressed in Bereshith Rabba; "Rachel said to Leah, 'He shall sleep with thee tonight,' Genesis 30:19: He shall sleep with thee, he shall not sleep with me; i.e. Thou and he shall lie together in one sepulchre, so shall not he and I."

Verse 18
18. Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

[About fifteen furlongs.] That is, two miles. For the Jewish miles did not hold out full eight furlongs, as other miles do, but seven and a half.

One of those seven and a half which make up a mile is a furlong.

"They do not lay the net for pigeons any less distance from the houses than thirty furlongs," i.e. four miles.

"What is furlong? It is a flight-shot. And why is furlong called a flight-shot? It is according to the numeral value of the letters, which is two hundred sixty-six: for two hundred sixty-six [cubits] make a flight shot. Now count, and you will thus find it: Seven times [Resh] two hundred make one thousand four hundred. Seven times [Samek] sixty make four hundred and twenty. Number them together, and they mount to one thousand eight hundred and twenty. Seven times [Vav] six make forty-two: half a furlong one hundred thirty-three: number them together, and the whole amounts to one thousand nine hundred ninety-five. Behold two thousand cubits excepting five."

Verse 19
19. And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

[To comfort them.] "When they return from the burial they stand about weeping, and say [a little prayer] comforting the mourner, and accompanying him to his own house."

"When they return from the grave they stand in a circle about the mourner comforting him." Gloss: "The circle about him consists of ten at least." But usually it is very crowded and numerous. Hence that passage:

"As to those that stood about in that circle, those that were on the inside of it were not obliged to repeat the phylacteries; but those that were on the outside were bound."

"The Rabbins deliver: The seven standings and sittings for the dead must not be diminished." Where the Gloss is; "When they returned from the grave, they went forward a little, and then sat down; partly to comfort the mourners, partly to weep themselves, and partly to meditate upon the subject of mortality. Then they stood up again, and went on a little, and sat down again, and so for seven times. But I have seen it written, that they did this upon the account of the evil spirits who accompanied them from the grave. They ordained these standings and sittings, that within that time the evil spirits might depart."

So that we see they were wont to comfort the mourners in the way as they were returning from the grave, and they would bring them back to their own house the day that the party deceased was interred. They comforted them also all the remaining days of mourning, which we find done in this place.

Thirty days were allotted for the time of mourning: but, "We must not weep for the dead beyond the measure. The three first days are for weeping; seven days for lamentation: thirty days for the intermission from washing their clothes, and shaving themselves."

I. When those that were to comfort the mourners came, they found all the beds in the house taken down, and laid upon the ground. "From what time do they take their beds lower? R. Eleazar saith, 'From the time that the deceased party is carried out of the court gate.' R. Joshua saith, 'From the time that the cover of the coffin is shut down.' When Rabban Gamaliel died, and the corpse was carried out of the court gate, saith R. Eleazar to his disciples, 'Take down the beds.' But when the coffin was closed, R. Joshua said, 'Take down the beds.' On the evening of the sabbath they set up their beds; at the going out of the sabbath they take them down."

What is to be understood by taking down their beds we may conjecture by what follows. "Whence came the custom of taking down the beds? R. Crispa in the name of R. Jochanan saith, From what is written, And they sat with him near the ground. It is not said, upon the ground, but near the ground; that is, not far off from the earth. Hence is it that they sat upon beds taken lower."

But Rabbenu Asher saith thus; "Rabh saith, Those that comfort ought to sit nowhere but upon the floor."

II. The mourner himself sits chief. A custom taken from these words, Job 29:25, "I chose out their way and sat chief....like him who comforts the mourners."

III. It was not lawful for the comforters to speak a word till the mourner himself break silence first. The pattern taken from Job's friends, Job 2.

IV. "R. Jochanan saith, If the mourner nod his head, the comforters are to sit by him no longer." The Gloss is, "If, by nodding his head, he signify to them that he hath comforted himself." Hence that frequently said of some, They would not receive comfort; that is, they gave signs by nodding their head that they had sufficiently comforted themselves.

These and many other things about this matter do occur in Moed Katon; and Rabbenu Asher: as also in Massecheth Semacoth; where, by the way, take notice, that that treatise, which hath for its subject the mourners for the dead, is called A treatise of gladness. So the sepulchres of the dead are often called, The houses of the living.

Let us take a little taste of the way of consolation they used: "The Rabbins deliver. When the sons of R. Ishmael died, four of the elders went in to him to comfort him; viz. R. Tarphon, and R. Jose the Galilean, and R. Eliezer Ben Azariah, and R. Akibah. R. Tarphon saith unto them, 'Ye must know that this is a very wise man, well skilled in exposition. Let not any of you interrupt the words of his fellow.' Saith R. Akibah, 'I am the last.' R. Ishmael began and said" [the mourner here breaks silence], "'His iniquities are multiplied, his griefs have bound him, and he hath wearied his masters.' Thus he said once and again. Then answered R. Tarphon and said, 'It is said, And your brethren of the house of Israel shall bewail the burning, Leviticus 10:6. May we not argue from the less to the greater? If Nadab and Abihu, who never performed but one command, as it is written, And the sons of Aaron brought blood to him; then much more may the sons of R. Ishmael be bewailed.' R. Jose the Galilean answered, saying, 'All Israel shall mourn for him and bury him,' 1 Kings 14:13. And must we not argue from the greater to the less? If they wept so for Abijah the son of Jeroboam, who did but one good thing, as it is said, Because in him there is found some good thing; how much more for the sons of R. Ishmael!" Of the same nature are the words of R. Eliezer and R. Akibah: but this is enough, either to raise laughter, or make a man angry. In the same page we have several forms of speech used by the women, that either were the mourners or the comforters. As,

The grave is as the robe of circumcision to an ingenuous man, whose provisions are spent.

The death of this man is as the death of all, and diseases are like putting money to usury.

He ran, and he fell in his passage, and hath borrowed a loan. With other passages very difficult to be understood.

The first three days of weeping were severer than the other: because "on the first day it was not lawful for the mourner to wear his phylacteries, to eat of holy things, nor indeed to eat any thing of his own. All the three days he might do no servile work, no, not privately: and if any one saluted him, he was not to salute him again."

"The first seven days let all the beds in the house be laid low. Let not the man use his wife. Let him not put on his sandals. Let him do no servile work publicly. Let him not salute any man. Let him not wash himself in warm water, nor his whole body in cold. Let him not anoint himself. Let him not read in the Law, the Misna, or the Talmud. Let him cover his head."

"All the thirty days let him not be shaved. Let him not wear any clothing that is white, or whitened, or new. Neither let him sew up those rents which he made in his garments for the deceased party," &c.

Verse 25
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[I am the resurrection.] Be it so, O Jew (if you will, or it can be), that the little bone luz, in the backbone, is the seed and principle of your resurrection: as to us, our blessed Jesus, who hath raised himself from the dead, is the spring and principle of ours.

"Hadrian (whose bones may they be ground, and his name blotted out!) asked R. Joshua Ben Hananiah, 'How doth a man revive again in the world to come?' He answered and said, 'From luz in the backbone.' Saith he to him, 'Demonstrate this to me.' Then he took luz, a little bone out of the backbone, and put it in water, and it was not steeped: he put it into the fire, and it was not burnt: he brought it to the mill, and that could not grind it: he laid it on the anvil, and knocked it with a hammer, but the anvil was cleft, and the hammer broken," &c. Why do ye not maul the Sadducees with this argument?

Verse 31
31. The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.

[Followed her.] "It is a tradition. Let no man follow a woman upon the way, no, not his own wife." If this grain of salt may be allowed in the explication of this passage, then, either all that followed Mary were women: or if men, they followed her at a very great distance: or else they had a peculiar dispensation at such solemn times as these, which they had not in common conversation. But the observation indeed is hardly worth a grain of salt.

Verse 39
39. Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

[For he hath been dead four days.] The three days of weeping were now past, and the four days of lamentation begun: so that all hope and expectation of his coming to himself was wholly gone.

"They go to the sepulchres, and visit the dead for three days. Neither are they solicitous lest they should incur the reproach of the Amorites." The story is, They visited a certain person, and he revived again, and lived five-and-twenty years, and then died. They tell of another that lived again, and begot children, and then died.

"It is a tradition of Ben Kaphra's: The very height of mourning is not till the third day. For three days the spirit wanders about the sepulchre, expecting if it may return into the body. But when it sees that the form or aspect of the face is changed, then it hovers no more, but leaves the body to itself."

"They do not certify of the dead" [that this is the very man, and not another] 'but within the three days after his decease': for after three days his countenance is changed."

Verse 44
44. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

[With graveclothes, &c.] The evangelist seems so particular in mentioning the graveclothes, wherewith Lazarus was bound hand and foot, and also the napkin that had covered his face, on purpose to hint us a second miracle in this great miracle. The dead man came forth, though bound hand and foot with his graveclothes, and blinded with the napkin.

Raimi Stranger · Jul 16, 2013

dunno how you think you can go your own way instead of Jesus' way ? - there is only the one way, to learn from God, from spirit, not from words...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

theology is not the way of God, but Satan uses and abuses it to hide the only way to God from the whole world ... Jesus has said , why not listen -Rev 13:3-4

why accept the way of the many when you know they, you, will be destroyed by it ? - Matt 7:13

WhatisTheTruth7 · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter

In your last post you referenced verses stating the fate of the wicked; I agree the wicked will burn up one day in the smoke.

Also Heman has listed numerous verses on this topic for days now on the fate of the wicked and there end being Eternal Death. I have viewed how you have answered him. In my opinion you hav not provided any evidence that the fate of the wicked is eternal toture. I'm not going to repost most of the verses he-man has referenced on the fate of the wicked that I would have listed as well.

Please still looking for one scripture that states the fate of the wicked is eternal torment?

WhatisTheTruth7 · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter
Again the way you break down these verses;(not accusing you) seems alot like how many false cults get started. You reference a verse and then insert words that do not fit the original wording.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

John 3:16 "shall not perish" Perish greek word = apollymi - to destroy

The context of this verse is either believing in Jesus and having eternal life or to not recieve him and perish? Eternal Life and Eternal death is contrasted here is it not?

WhatisTheTruth7 · Jul 16, 2013

Rami Stranger- Has the Comforter taught you ALL THINGS?

he-man · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter said:
When I say something do not change it by replacing what I wrote. As I said I know what I wrote and I know what I meant. If you think you are exposing something write it outside my words.

YOUR WORDS

That which you "QUOTED" and are hiding behind, was from a Bible and not YOUR WORDS!

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned.

ἅδης, ἅδου, ὁ (D1)
Name: "Hades" "Originally proper noun, god of the nether world, 'Hades,' then the nether world ... as a place of the dead" (BDAG3).

Hades, αδης m,αιδης, V. Adj. νερτερος V, χυονιος V. cf, also Death (p. 50 αδης ποντιος death by drowning), Grave (p. 101 αδης watery grave)

G86 αδης hadēs From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, Hades or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

King James Version Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell <G86>: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Job 26:3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Eze 32:24 There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.
26 There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living.

27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Psalm 18:5 (KJV)
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word sheol [H:7585] From H7592; hades or the world of the dead - grave, hell, pit. is translated as either hell or grave or in some translations, it is transliterated as Sheol.

The word sheol [H:7585] is the place where one goes when
they die.The Greek word geenna is a transliteration of two Hebrew words, [H:1516], meaning valley and [H:2011], a place name of uncertain meaning. Valley of Hinnom is the name of a valley outside Jerusalem.

In the Bible, the word abaddon means destruction (Job. xxxi, 12), or the place of destruction, i. e. the subterranean world, Hades, the region of the dead (Job xxvi, 6; xxviii, 22; Prov. xv, 11).

The idea of a fire being associated with sheol is unique to the New Testament and no such reference will be found in the Old Testament. Apparently, the fires of hell is a concept introduced into the Hebrew culture from an outside source, possibly while Israel was in Babylon during their captivity.
The second word translated as hell in the New Testament is hades [G:86]. This is the Greek word used in the Greek
Septuagint for the Hebrew word sheol. Hades is used in the New Testament in the same sense as the Hebrew sheol, the place of the dead, the underworld. [ancient-hebrew.org]

Hades (from Greek, Hades, originally, Haides or, Aides, probably from Indo-European * 'unseen') refers to both the ancient Greek underworld and the god of the dead. The word originally (as in Homer) referred to just the god; , Haidou its genitive, was an elision (omission of a vowel

of "the house of Hades". Eventually, the nominative, too, came to designate the abode of the dead.
Hades Greek Mythology the abode of the spirits of the dead; the underworld. © Oxford University Press, 2004

Hades The nether world (according to classical mythology, the abode of the shades, ruled over by Hades or Pluto); the invisible world; the grave.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Hades that which is out of sight, a Greek word used to denote the state or place of the dead. All the dead alike go into this place. To be buried, to go down to the grave, to descend into hades, are equivalent expressions. In the LXX. this word is the usual rendering of the Hebrew sheol, the common receptacle of the departed (Gen. 42:38; Ps. 139:8; Hos. 13:14; Isa. 14:9).

This term is of comparatively rare occurrence in the Greek New Testament. Our Lord speaks of Capernaum as being "brought down to hell" (hades), i.e., simply to the lowest debasement, (Matt. 11:23). It is contemplated as a kind of kingdom which could never overturn the foundation of Christ's kingdom (16:18), i.e., Christ's church can never die.

In Luke 16:23 it is most distinctly associated with the doom and misery of the lost. In Acts 2:27-31 Peter quotes the LXX. version of Ps. 16:8-11, plainly for the purpose of proving our Lord's resurrection from the dead. David was left in the place of the dead, and his body saw corruption. Not so with Christ. According to ancient prophecy (Ps. 30:3) he was recalled to life. Easton's Bible Dictionary

For the Jews and early Christians, even Sheol was not separated from God. Translating directly from the Greek of the Septuagint Palms 139:7 and 8 "Where can I go away from your spirit? And away from your presence, where can I flee? If I go up into heaven, you are there. If I go down into Hades, there is your presence."

In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die.

Hades is translated as hell ten times in the New Testament, but it is also translated as "grave" in 1 Cor 15:55, another point of inconsistency.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to [G5020 ταρταρόω] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The word Tartarus is also a proper noun, that is a name of a place, and accordingly should not be changed into a different word, and certainly not the same word that used for Hades and Gehennah.

Tartarus originally came from Greek mythology and popular folk tales. It is the name of a prison in Hades that Zeus, after triumphing over the Titans, placed them, bound in chains to hold them for future punishment for crimes against humans. It was metaphorically seen as the place where justice was metered out in the spirit world, and this metaphor often found it's way into Jewish apocryphal writings about the end times.
The history of the English word "hell" is also revealing. The Old English word from which hell is derived is "helan", which means to hide or cover, and is a verb. So at one time the English church understood that to be judged a sinner meant one would cower and want to hide in fear when in God's presence
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Jesus could not have preached to anyone, dead or alive, while His dead body lay in the tomb.

Why? Because He was dead! If He was not dead during those "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), then His sacrifice for the sins of humanity was in vain!

Rev. 20:13 means that all, go directly to hell after death.

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

WhatisTheTruth7 said:
Der Alter

In your last post you referenced verses stating the fate of the wicked; I agree the wicked will burn up one day in the smoke.

Also Heman has listed numerous verses on this topic for days now on the fate of the wicked and there end being Eternal Death. I have viewed how you have answered him. In my opinion you hav not provided any evidence that the fate of the wicked is eternal toture. I'm not going to repost most of the verses he-man has referenced on the fate of the wicked that I would have listed as well.

Please still looking for one scripture that states the fate of the wicked is eternal torment?

I have already done so, but you do not see it, because you do not want to see it. Rev 14:10-11, Matt 13:39-42, 49, Matt 18:8-9, Mk 9:43-48, Luk 16:19-31, John 15:6,

I'm sure He-man appreciates your accolades but I have refuted every scripture he has posted.

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

WhatisTheTruth7 said:
Der Alter
Again the way you break down these verses;(not accusing you) seems alot like how many false cults get started. You reference a verse and then insert words that do not fit the original wording.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

John 3:16 "shall not perish" Perish greek word = apollymi - to destroy

The context of this verse is either believing in Jesus and having eternal life or to not recieve him and perish? Eternal Life and Eternal death is contrasted here is it not?

Yes you are accusing and it is a false accusation. I have not added anything to any verse that is not there. If you don't like the definitions of the original Greek words, that is your problem. For example, if you have the proper Greek resource check these vss. the word [SIZE="+1"]ἀπόλλυμι[/SIZE]/appolumi is used for a gouged out eye, and a cut off hand, Mat 5:29-30; men afraid of drowning Mat 8:25, Mar 4:38, Luk 8:24; broken wineskins, Mat 9:17, Luk 5:37; men dying by the sword, Mat 26:5; prodigal son afraid of dying of hunger, Luk 15:17; fear of Israel being destroyed by Rome, Joh 11:50; meat that spoils, Joh 6:27; Herod attempting to kill the infant Jesus, Mat 2:13; the [living] lost sheep of Israel, Mat 10:6, Mat 15:24; lose a reward, Mat 10:42; Jews trying to kill Jesus, Mat 12:14, Mat 27:20, Mar 3:6, Mar 11:18, Luk 19:47, Joh 18:14; a landowner killing tenants who killed his son, Mat 21:41, Mar 12:9, Luk 20:16, Joh 11:50; a king killing subjects who did not want him to rule them, Mat 22:7; live by the sword, die by the sword, Mat 26:52; demons attempting to kill a boy, Mar 9:22; men dying in the temple, Luk 11:51; men killed by Pilate, Luk 13:3, 5; lost sheep, Luk 15:4; father said prodigal son was lost, Luk 15:6; widow loses piece of silver, Luk 15:8; people killed by the flood, Luk 17:27, 2Pe 3:6; Jesus did not leftover food to be lost, Joh 6:12; the thief comes to destroy, Joh 10:10; rebels dying in the wilderness, Act 5:37; offending someone by eating meat, Rom 14:15; a flower fades and perishes, Jam 1:11; not losing one's work, 2Jo 1:8;

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

Right

he-man said:
ἅδης, ἅδου, ὁ (D1)
Name: "Hades" "Originally proper noun, god of the nether world, 'Hades,' then the nether world ... as a place of the dead" (BDAG3).

Do you actually have BDAG3? Or did you C/P from some website? I am absolutely convinced this is not the complete definition. See my quote of BAG above.

Hades, αδης m,αιδης, V. Adj. νερτερος V, χυονιος V. cf, also Death (p. 50 αδης ποντιος death by drowning), Grave (p. 101 αδης watery grave)

G86 αδης hadēs From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, Hades or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

King James Version Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell <G86>: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Job 26:3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Okay.

Eze 32:24 There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.
26 There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living.
27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Most unfortunate that you dishonestly selectively quoted this passage.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[[size=+1]שאול][/size]/sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Psalm 18:5 (KJV)
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word sheol [H:7585] From H7592; hades or the world of the dead - grave, hell, pit. is translated as either hell or grave or in some translations, it is transliterated as Sheol.

The word sheol [H:7585] is the place where one goes when
they die.The Greek word geenna is a transliteration of two Hebrew words, [H:1516], meaning valley and [H:2011], a place name of uncertain meaning. Valley of Hinnom is the name of a valley outside Jerusalem.

In the Bible, the word abaddon means destruction (Job. xxxi, 12), or the place of destruction, i. e. the subterranean world, Hades, the region of the dead (Job xxvi, 6; xxviii, 22; Prov. xv, 11).

The idea of a fire being associated with sheol is unique to the New Testament and no such reference will be found in the Old Testament. Apparently, the fires of hell is a concept introduced into the Hebrew culture from an outside source, possibly while Israel was in Babylon during their captivity.
The second word translated as hell in the New Testament is hades [G:86]. This is the Greek word used in the Greek
Septuagint for the Hebrew word sheol. Hades is used in the New Testament in the same sense as the Hebrew sheol, the place of the dead, the underworld. [ancient-hebrew.org]

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.
...
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Hades . . . [irrelevant historical overview omitted] . . .
In Luke 16:23 it is most distinctly associated with the doom and misery of the lost. In Acts 2:27-31 Peter quotes the LXX. version of Ps. 16:8-11, plainly for the purpose of proving our Lord's resurrection from the dead. David was left in the place of the dead, and his body saw corruption. Not so with Christ. According to ancient prophecy (Ps. 30:3) he was recalled to life. Easton's Bible Dictionary

For the Jews and early Christians, even Sheol was not separated from God. Translating directly from the Greek of the Septuagint Palms 139:7 and 8 "Where can I go away from your spirit? And away from your presence, where can I flee? If I go up into heaven, you are there. If I go down into Hades, there is your presence."

Yes but see Isaiah 14:9 and Ezek 32, above.

In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die.

Same place? One is a oplace of flaming torment and the other a place of comfort, and there is no passage from one to the other.

Hades is translated as hell ten times in the New Testament, but it is also translated as "grave" in 1 Cor 15:55, another point of inconsistency.

Irrelevant observation.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to [G5020 ταρταρόω] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The word Tartarus is also a proper noun, that is a name of a place, and accordingly should not be changed into a different word, and certainly not the same word that used for Hades and Gehennah.

Both the old testament and new testament use sheol/hades for the grave and the place of punishment.

Tartarus originally came from Greek mythology and popular folk tales. It is the name of a prison in Hades that Zeus, after triumphing over the Titans, placed them, bound in chains to hold them for future punishment for crimes against humans. It was metaphorically seen as the place where justice was metered out in the spirit world, and this metaphor often found it's way into Jewish apocryphal writings about the end times.

See Isaiah 14:9 and Ezek 32.

The history of the English word "hell" is also revealing. The Old English word from which hell is derived is "helan", which means to hide or cover, and is a verb. So at one time the English church understood that to be judged a sinner meant one would cower and want to hide in fear when in God's presence
Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife

Check the dictionary. What does hell mean now? What it may have meant to another culture hundreds of years ago is irrelevant. For example, there are more than 800 words in the KJV that have changed in meaning or have dropped out of the language altogether. Another example the word convince in KJV means convict today.

Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

What conclusion do you wish me to draw from this verse?

Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Jesus could not have preached to anyone, dead or alive, while His dead body lay in the tomb.

Why? Because He was dead! If He was not dead during those "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), then His sacrifice for the sins of humanity was in vain!

I agree. See Luke 4:18

Rev. 20:13 means that all, go directly to hell after death.

Incorrect.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

WhatisTheTruth7 · Jul 16, 2013

DER ALTER

I'm aware of the greek meanings and have looked at them and particularly when it comes to John 3:16. The term destroyed is correct when looking at the different meanings for apollymi.

It's not a false accusation if your implying eternal torment and sayng that equals eternal death. I hate to tell you but none of your assertions are fitting the context of the verses for the fate of the wicked. I can't help that you are denying clear plain scripture...

PS. He-man does not need me applauding him; he is just quoting the scripture and paiting a clear picture of what the Bible as a whole describes the fate of the wicked. If the end result of a person with out christ when they die were to be eternal suffering the Bible would have made that clear to everybody. it would be spelled out and not to where it would have one to assume that there is eternal suffering...

Raimi Stranger · Jul 16, 2013

oh dear this egoism is way out of control... listen to Jesus and the new covenant... you cannot be saved unless God does the teaching by spirit, NOT IN WORDS ... what a farcical waste of pages of words of men refusing to admit they arewrong because they rely on their understanding of words, not on God's spiriot baptism without which none can be saved ... a whole lifetime of bible study will not yield what God could give you in one day.... now please listen to Jesus if you believe in him , there is NOTHING to argue about with God and you suurely won't make it against Satan without Him.... :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my [Jesus'] name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

he-man · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter said:
Right Do you actually have BDAG3? Or did you C/P from some website? I am absolutely convinced this is not the complete definition. See my quote of BAG above.

deleted

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

Evergreen48 said:
. . . Do you have anything other than your own opinion for accepting Luke 16:19-1 and/or ECF?
I mean, after all, you can't truthfully say that Jesus was the one who said the words of the parable, can you?

Okay. I'll play this ridiculous game. Do you have anything but your own opinion that any of the books in the NT are authentic, that Jesus or any other person in the NT actually said the words attributed to them? I mean after all you can't truthfully say that Jesus said any of the words attributed to him in the NT, can you?

he-man · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter said:
Right Do you actually have BDAG3? Or did you C/P from some website? I am absolutely convinced this is not the complete definition. See my quote of BAG above.

see BDAG3

Der Alter said:
Most unfortunate that you dishonestly selectively quoted this passage. Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV) 18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit. 21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול][sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. 22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ] Eze 32:30-31 (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit. (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Do you see them that go down into the pit ? his graves? [שאול][sheol]?

Der Alter said:
Same place? One is a oplace of flaming torment and the other a place of comfort, and there is no passage from one to the other.

The GRAVE, as you say, "Both the old testament and new testament use sheol/hades for the grave"

Der Alter said:
Check the dictionary. What does hell mean now? What it may have meant to another culture hundreds of years ago is irrelevant.

???? We are looking at the Koine Greek, not a 21st Century dictionary.

Der Alter said:
Incorrect. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Do you really think that the dead were hiding some other place?

What conclusion do I wish you to draw from the following verse? Well, if your Bible is open, try the parable of The Wheat and the Tares
Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Second and Seventh Parables or First Pair: The Wheat and the Tares, and the Good and Bad Fish

The subject of both these parableswhich teach the same truth, with a slight diversity of aspectis: The Mixed Character Of The Kingdom In Its Present State, And The Final Absolute Separation Of The Two Classes.

The Tares and the Wheat
(Mt 13:24-30, 36-43 Matthew 13:36-42 (ASV)
Mt 36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;

39 and the enemy [the men] that sowed them is the adversary: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

40 As therefore the tares [the wicked] are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,

42 and shall cast them [tares, the wicked] into the furnace of fire [to be burned up]: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.)

Notes for Verses 24, 36-38
36-38. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his fieldHappily for us, these exquisite parables are, with like charming simplicity and clearness, expounded to us by the Great Preacher Himself.

Accordingly, we pass to: Mt 13:36-38. See on Mt 13:36; Mt 13:38
39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY]

Verse 26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares [the wicked] alsothe growth in both cases running parallel, as antagonistic principles are seen to do

27. So the servants of the householder camethat is, Christ's ministers. and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?This well expresses the surprise, disappointment, and anxiety of Christ's faithful servants and people at the discovery of "false brethren" among the members of the Church.

28. He said unto them, a man, An enemy hath done thisKind words these from a good Husbandman, honorably clearing His faithful servants of the wrong done to his field.

The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?Compare with this the question of James and John (Lk 9:54), "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume" those Samaritans? In this kind of zeal there is usually a large mixture of carnal heat. (See Jas 1:20).

29. But he said, Nay"It will be done in due time, but not now, nor is it your business." lest, while ye gather up the tares, ye root [the wicked] up also the wheat with them

Nothing could more clearly or forcibly teach the difficulty of distinguishing the two classes, and the high probability that in the attempt to do so these will be confounded.

30, 39. Let both grow togetherthat is, in the visible Church. until the harvesttill the one have ripened for full salvation, the other for destruction. (See on Mt 13:39).
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers(See on Mt 13:39). Gather ye together first the tares [the wicked], and bind them in bundles to burn them"in the fire" (Mt 13:40).

but gather the wheat into my repositoryChrist, as the Judge, will separate the two classes (as in Mt 25:32). It will be observed that the tares [the wicked] are burned before the wheat is housed; in the exposition of the parable (Mt 13:41, 43) the same order is observed: and the same in Mt 25:46as if, in some literal sense, "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" (Ps 91:8).

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Good and Bad Fish
Matthew 13:47-50 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The field in which the seeds were sown represents the world of mankind; the man who sowed good seeds represents Jesus; the enemy a man who sowed tares, the adversary; the good seed, Christians: the tares, wicked persons; the harvest, the end of this world; the reapers, the angels.

In brief, the final separation of the wicked from the righteous, and the destruction of the latter in fire, is the burden of the parable.
The New Testament Commentary: Vol. I - Matthew and Mark.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned.

Mar 9:44 This whole clause is left out in the Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; and the phrase, "that never shall be quenched", is not in the Arabic version.

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

he-man said:
We are looking at the Koine Greek, not a 21st Century dictionary.

I agree. When I said check a dictionary for the meaning of hell I was responding to this.

The history of the English word "hell" is also revealing. The Old English word from which hell is derived is "helan", which means to hide or cover, and is a verb. So at one time the English church understood that to be judged a sinner meant one would cower and want to hide in fear when in God's presence.

Again what the word hell may have meant in some other culture centuries ago is iirrelevant. What does it mean today.

Do you really think that the dead were hiding some other place?

What are you talking about?

What conclusion do I wish you to draw from the following verse? Well, if your Bible is open, try the parable of The Wheat and the Tares.

Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Psa 21:9-12
(9) Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
(10) Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
(11) For they intended evil against thee: they imagined a mischievous device, which they are not able to perform.
(12) Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them.

Something that happens to Israel's enemies in this world.

Second and Seventh Parables or First Pair: The Wheat and the Tares, and the Good and Bad Fish

The subject of both these parables—which teach the same truth, with a slight diversity of aspect—is: The Mixed Character Of The Kingdom In Its Present State, And The Final Absolute Separation Of The Two Classes.

The Tares and the Wheat
(Mt 13:24-30, 36-43 Matthew 13:36-42 (ASV)
Mt 36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;
39 and the enemy [the men] that sowed them is the adversary: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
40 As therefore the tares [the wicked] are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them [tares, the wicked] into the furnace of fire [to be burned up]: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.)

Notes for Verses 24, 36-38
36-38. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field—Happily for us, these exquisite parables are, with like charming simplicity and clearness, expounded to us by the Great Preacher Himself.

Accordingly, we pass to: Mt 13:36-38. See on Mt 13:36; Mt 13:38
39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY]

Verse 26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares [the wicked] also—the growth in both cases running parallel, as antagonistic principles are seen to do
27. So the servants of the householder came—that is, Christ's ministers. and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?—This well expresses the surprise, disappointment, and anxiety of Christ's faithful servants and people at the discovery of "false brethren" among the members of the Church.
28. He said unto them, a man, An enemy hath done this—Kind words these from a good Husbandman, honorably clearing His faithful servants of the wrong done to his field.

The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?—Compare with this the question of James and John (Lk 9:54), "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume" those Samaritans? In this kind of zeal there is usually a large mixture of carnal heat. (See Jas 1:20).

29. But he said, Nay—"It will be done in due time, but not now, nor is it your business." lest, while ye gather up the tares, ye root [the wicked] up also the wheat with them—

Nothing could more clearly or forcibly teach the difficulty of distinguishing the two classes, and the high probability that in the attempt to do so these will be confounded.

30, 39. Let both grow together—that is, in the visible Church. until the harvest—till the one have ripened for full salvation, the other for destruction. (See on Mt 13:39).
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers—(See on Mt 13:39). Gather ye together first the tares [the wicked], and bind them in bundles to burn them—"in the fire" (Mt 13:40).

but gather the wheat into my repository—Christ, as the Judge, will separate the two classes (as in Mt 25:32). It will be observed that the tares [the wicked] are burned before the wheat is housed; in the exposition of the parable (Mt 13:41, 43) the same order is observed: and the same in Mt 25:46—as if, in some literal sense, "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" (Ps 91:8).

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Good and Bad Fish
Matthew 13:47-50 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The field in which the seeds were sown represents the world of mankind; the man who sowed good seeds represents Jesus; the enemy a man who sowed tares, the adversary; the good seed, Christians: the tares, wicked persons; the harvest, the end of this world; the reapers, the angels.

In brief, the final separation of the wicked from the righteous, and the destruction of the latter in fire, is the burden of the parable.
The New Testament Commentary: Vol. I - Matthew and Mark.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned.

Mar 9:44 This whole clause is left out in the Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; and the phrase, "that never shall .be quenched", is not in the Arabic version.

Thanks for this copy/paste from "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible." If I ever get the urge I may go read this. Unfortunately I am not having a discussion with this commentary. None of this actually addresses my post.

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

he-man said:
Do you see them that go down into the pit ? his graves? [שאול][sheol]?
The GRAVE, as you say, "Both the old testament and new testament use sheol/hades for the grave" ????

Let's try this again. Yes I see what you highlighted. Did you see what I highlighted?

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[[size=+1]שאול][/size]/sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size]/sheol]. . . all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might . . . Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord."

The dead in the midst of sheol speak to pharaoh out of sheol. all of them ...which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might, Pharaoh who is slain with the sword sees all his soldiers dead in sheol and is comforted.

he-man · Jul 16, 2013

Der Alter said:
Again what the word hell may have meant in some other culture centuries ago is iirrelevant. What does it mean today.

The same as it did in Koine. GRAVE

Der Alter said:
Thanks for this copy/paste from "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible." If I ever get the urge I may go read this. Unfortunately I am not having a discussion with this commentary. None of this actually addresses my post.

Then why did you quote BAG? You said the chaff was not the same as tares! You also said you address each and every scripture :doh:

Second and Seventh Parables or First Pair: The Wheat and the Tares, and the Good and Bad Fish

The subject of both these parableswhich teach the same truth, with a slight diversity of aspectis: The Mixed Character Of The Kingdom In Its Present State, And The Final Absolute Separation Of The Two Classes.

The Tares and the Wheat
(Mt 13:24-30, 36-43 Matthew 13:36-42 (ASV)
Mt 36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;
39 and the enemy [the men] that sowed them is the adversary: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
40 As therefore the tares [the wicked] are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them [tares, the wicked] into the furnace of fire [to be burned up]: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.)

Notes for Verses 24, 36-38
36-38. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his fieldHappily for us, these exquisite parables are, with like charming simplicity and clearness, expounded to us by the Great Preacher Himself.

Accordingly, we pass to: Mt 13:36-38. See on Mt 13:36; Mt 13:38
39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY]

Verse 26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares [the wicked] alsothe growth in both cases running parallel, as antagonistic principles are seen to do
27. So the servants of the householder camethat is, Christ's ministers. and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?This well expresses the surprise, disappointment, and anxiety of Christ's faithful servants and people at the discovery of "false brethren" among the members of the Church.
28. He said unto them, a man, An enemy hath done thisKind words these from a good Husbandman, honorably clearing His faithful servants of the wrong done to his field.

The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?Compare with this the question of James and John (Lk 9:54), "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume" those Samaritans? In this kind of zeal there is usually a large mixture of carnal heat. (See Jas 1:20).

29. But he said, Nay"It will be done in due time, but not now, nor is it your business." lest, while ye gather up the tares, ye root [the wicked] up also the wheat with them

Nothing could more clearly or forcibly teach the difficulty of distinguishing the two classes, and the high probability that in the attempt to do so these will be confounded.

30, 39. Let both grow togetherthat is, in the visible Church. until the harvesttill the one have ripened for full salvation, the other for destruction. (See on Mt 13:39).
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers(See on Mt 13:39). Gather ye together first the tares [the wicked], and bind them in bundles to burn them"in the fire" (Mt 13:40).

but gather the wheat into my repositoryChrist, as the Judge, will separate the two classes (as in Mt 25:32). It will be observed that the tares [the wicked] are burned before the wheat is housed; in the exposition of the parable (Mt 13:41, 43) the same order is observed: and the same in Mt 25:46as if, in some literal sense, "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" (Ps 91:8).

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Good and Bad Fish
Matthew 13:47-50 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The field in which the seeds were sown represents the world of mankind; the man who sowed good seeds represents Jesus; the enemy a man who sowed tares, the adversary; the good seed, Christians: the tares, wicked persons; the harvest, the end of this world; the reapers, the angels.

In brief, the final separation of the wicked from the righteous, and the destruction of the latter in fire, is the burden of the parable.
The New Testament Commentary: Vol. I - Matthew and Mark.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned.

Mar 9:44 This whole clause is left out in the Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; and the phrase, "that never shall .be quenched", is not in the Arabic version.

Der Alte · Jul 16, 2013

he-man said:
The same as it did in Koine. GRAVE

Wrong! Hell did not mean grave in Koine, and it does not mean grave in modern English.

Definition of HELL [from online Merriam-Webster dictionary]
1
a (1) : a nether world in which the dead continue to exist : hades (2) : the nether realm of the devil and the demons in which the damned suffer everlasting punishment often used in curses <go to hell> or as a generalized term of abuse <the hell with it>
b Christian Science : error 2b, sin
2
a : a place or state of misery, torment, or wickedness <war is hell W. T. Sherman>
b : a place or state of turmoil or destruction <all hell broke loose>
c : a severe scolding; also : flak, grief <gave me hell for coming in late>
d : unrestrained fun or sportiveness <the kids were full of hell> often used in the phrase for the hell of it especially to suggest action on impulse or without a serious motive <decided to go for the hell of it>
e : an extremely unpleasant and often inescapable situation <rush-hour hell>
3
archaic : a tailor's receptacle
4
used as an interjection <hell, I don't know!> or as an intensive <hurts like hell> <funny as hell> ; often used in the phrase hell of a <it was one hell of a good fight> or hell out of <scared the hell out of him> or with the or in <moved way the hell up north> <what in hell is wrong, now?>
from hell
: being the worst or most dreadful of its kind
hell on
: very hard on or destructive to <the constant traveling is hell on your digestive system>
hell or high water
: difficulties of whatever kind or size <will stand by her convictions come hell or high water>
hell to pay
: dire consequences <if he's late there'll be hell to pay>
what the hell
used interjectionally to express a lack of concern about consequences or risks <it might cost him half his estate but what the hell N. W. Aldrich b1935>

Then why did you quote BAG?

Do you not understand the difference between quoting the definition of a Greek word from a lexicon and copy/pasting almost an entire post from a commentary?

You said the chaff was not the same as tares! You also said you address each and every scripture

Chaff is not tares. Chaff is the husk, leaves and stems of grain which is first beaten to loosen it from the grain, then winnowed to separate it from the grain. Tares are weeds another plant completely distinct from the edible grain. I have addressed your scripture, so far and will continue to do so when you start having a discussion with me instead of expecting me to have a discussion with your copy/pastes from commentaries.

Second and Seventh Parables or First Pair: The Wheat and the Tares, and the Good and Bad Fish

The subject of both these parableswhich teach the same truth, with a slight diversity of aspectis: The Mixed Character Of The Kingdom In Its Present State, And The Final Absolute Separation Of The Two Classes.

The Tares and the Wheat
(Mt 13:24-30, 36-43 Matthew 13:36-42 (ASV) . . .

This and most, if not all, of your post is copy/pasted from "Commentary Critical, and Explanatory on the Whole Bible," by Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown. And you are not identifying your source.

. . . 39 and the enemy [the men] that sowed them is the adversary: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
40 As therefore the tares [the wicked] are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. . . .

The enemy is the adversary, i.e. devil, not men. It states that right in the verse.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned.

Photonfanatic · Jul 16, 2013

Timothew said:
At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is good news for those whose Lord is Jesus Christ. Rather bad news for those who reject Jesus Christ, since they will not receive eternal life, not in hell being tortured, or anywhere else. According to the Bible, The wicked will be destroyed.

The wages of sin is death. Dead means "not alive".
In order to have eternal life, a person has to be "not dead".
In order to be "not dead", a person has to have their sins forgiven, because the wages of sin is death.

But if I die, (even in Christ) am I not dead? Perhaps alive in the next world, but quite dead in this one. I'll have a skeleton and everything.

And what of all those who have never, or will never hear of Jesus Christ? All the ancient peoples that lived all over the world. What of them? They've certainly never heard of him. Well, back in their time, I mean.

The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

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