*Sigh* - Here We Go

Jimmy P

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Couldn't the Vatican pay out to the Parishes that are having rough financial times? I thought I read that the Vatican has alot of money? Couldn't they use it to help their Priests and Parishes?

Another thing, when I saw you type evolve, reminded me..I saw that it's ok to believe in Evolution? I understand it said as long as we believe God is the creator in all that...
How is that possible? To believe in both? I thought it was either Creationism or Evolution...and if evolution were real and we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Why haven't they evolved?

I would think if dinosaurs were real, wouldn't they be mentioned throughout the Bible? I know there's mention of a possible one, in Job 40 is it?

So would that make Adam a caveman? I get lost in things like that...
 
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Gwendolyn

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See, I figured by the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin, then that way we're ready when we die...that part that says "It is appointed for man to die once and after this the Judgement"

To me, that sounds like as soon as you pass on from this life, BOOM, you stand before God to see where you're going...am I right in that?

I have trouble understanding purgatory myself because I feel like its existence says that forgiveness isn't enough. It isn't enough for be forgiven, you still have to suffer punishment because of what you did. And so purgatory is that punishment, where you burn it off until you are perfect enough to enter heaven (because nothing imperfect can enter heaven).

Indulgences also don't make sense to me. Their original form made perfect sense and had nothing to do with purgatory at all. But now indulgences supposedly alleviate what you'll have to suffer there so you can go faster to heaven or something.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Couldn't the Vatican pay out to the Parishes that are having rough financial times? I thought I read that the Vatican has alot of money? Couldn't they use it to help their Priests and Parishes?

Another thing, when I saw you type evolve, reminded me..I saw that it's ok to believe in Evolution? I understand it said as long as we believe God is the creator in all that...
How is that possible? To believe in both? I thought it was either Creationism or Evolution...and if evolution were real and we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Why haven't they evolved?

I would think if dinosaurs were real, wouldn't they be mentioned throughout the Bible? I know there's mention of a possible one, in Job 40 is it?

So would that make Adam a caveman? I get lost in things like that...

Things aren't true just because they are mentioned in the bible. Things are mentioned in the bible because they are true. Anteaters weren't mentioned in the bible, but they're real.

The Catholic position on evolution is this: you can believe God guided the hand of evolution, God is the source of evolution, and God is the end of evolution. Who says creation happened immediately, or in six days? Who says creation couldn't have unfolded over millions of years? God is outside of time; millions of years in our reckoning are but a blink of an eye to Him.

Re: apes, we didn't evolve from apes. Apes and humans share a common ancestor. Mutations meant apes evolved one way, and humans evolved another. You won't find any gorillas that will become human someday. Evolution doesn't work like that.
 
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The reason I have issues with them is that the Fathers didn't teach them. A lot of times I see Catholic apologists using out-of-context patristic quotes that speak of a between heaven and Earth state. The assumption? That state MUST be purgatory.

As I delved into the Fathers, I found that the Fathers DID speak of temptation after death, and the demons of the aerial realm who try desperately to bring us to our knees as we ascent. St. John Climacus, whom even the Catholic Church recognizes as a saint, spoke of the ladder of divine ascent and the imagery of a climb, and temptation abounding. The Fathers spoke of divine visions of afterlife temptation and the angels and saints fighting for we faithful based on our lives in this world and the integrity and spiritual struggle we put up. It's amazing how much the Fathers and great saints spoke of afterlife temptation, struggle, and ascent, but nowhere do you hear the medieval vision until.....well, the Middle Ages! LOL So purgatory, while it 'makes sense,' isn't something that jives with Scripture or the Fathers imho.

And indulgences, as I studied them, they were a natural development from the doctrine of purgatory. If you're going to tell people that confession and forgiveness isn't enough, and that there is more sentence to pay off and residue on the soul to purge, and that only the Patriarch of Rome being Peter's descendent can hold the keys and the other patriarchs do not, put those two ideas together and you get the notion that you can do certain works to earn a get out of jail time served sort of card. And if you're corrupt enough, you get the idea that $$$$$$ will get you out.

That's why I found purgatory and indulgences dangerous mixtures.

I have trouble understanding purgatory myself because I feel like its existence says that forgiveness isn't enough. It isn't enough for be forgiven, you still have to suffer punishment because of what you did. And so purgatory is that punishment, where you burn it off until you are perfect enough to enter heaven (because nothing imperfect can enter heaven).

Indulgences also don't make sense to me. Their original form made perfect sense and had nothing to do with purgatory at all. But now indulgences supposedly alleviate what you'll have to suffer there so you can go faster to heaven or something.
 
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WarriorAngel

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St Perpetua... ahem.

Story of the Martyrdom of Sts. Felicity and Perpetua - Catholic Culture

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/activities/view.cfm?id=248


O yah - this is in the early early Church dude.
The martyrs speak. :p

Perpetua's greatest suffering nevertheless was for her baby who was with her. Baptism, however, drove away her fears and with the coming of the Holy Spirit she was at peace and the prison became to her as a palace; in visions she learned the manner of their martyrdom and caught glimpses of what awaits souls in the life after death. Among these was a vision of Purgatory where she saw her little brother Dinocratus suffering.
Dinocratus had died when he was only seven, painfully ulcerated about the face. Perpetua saw him "coming out of a dark place where there were many others," dirtily clad, pale, with the wound still on his face, and he was very hot and thirsty. Near him was a fountain but its brim was higher than he could reach and, though he stood on tiptoe, he could not drink. By this vision she knew he needed her prayers, and she prayed for him night and day. On the day the Christians were put in stocks, she had another vision and saw Dinocratus freed. This time he was clean and finely clothed, on his face was a clean scar and beside him a low fountain reaching only to his waist. On the edge of the fountain was a golden cup ever full of water, and Dinocratus drank. "And when he had drunk he came away — pleased to play, as children will."
 
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It's amazing some of the odd notions that are out there re: evolution. I remember in high school this buddy I had, Tom. Tom's mom was driving he and I to school one day when we were sophomores and didn't have cars yet. She said, "I just can't believe that people buy into evolution. I mean, apes are supposed to eventually change into us and we're supposed to be evolving into something better? I'm looking around and haven't seen anyone changing? We're not changing. Look around!" LOL! :p I thought, "oh boy...." ^_^

Things aren't true just because they are mentioned in the bible. Things are mentioned in the bible because they are true. Anteaters weren't mentioned in the bible, but they're real.

The Catholic position on evolution is this: you can believe God guided the hand of evolution, God is the source of evolution, and God is the end of evolution. Who says creation happened immediately, or in six days? Who says creation couldn't have unfolded over millions of years? God is outside of time; millions of years in our reckoning are but a blink of an eye to Him.

Re: apes, we didn't evolve from apes. Apes and humans share a common ancestor. Mutations meant apes evolved one way, and humans evolved another. You won't find any gorillas that will become human someday. Evolution doesn't work like that.
 
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WarriorAngel

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As Gwen said - God is outside of time. His time, St Peter tried to compare it for our own understanding in time - is 1000 years is but one day to God.
It could actually be 100,000,000 years our time and still - without the existence of time - and in no hurry - it could have been millions of years til He even decided to start.

He has been around forever and will live on forever, but He doesnt sense time as we do.

So He created mankind as fast or slow as He wanted.
One more thing i think is often over looked - Genesis - 1st paragraph.
Waste and void. Had God created prehistoric critters and then wasted them? Did He make the earth void to start again?

I mean He had no deadlines or anything - certainly He was allowed to have some fun before He made man in His image. Plus its quite a test for us to see dinosaurs and such and wonder how they fit in...


Genesis itself shows some periods of how God evolved even modern man. Around the flood - He grieved man and decided to shorten his life span. Mankind went from 900 years of living [o gosh that doesnt sound like fun] to 76 years on average.

900 years to wait to die - i guess before the Lord came to open up the gates - it might have been a good thing.

Also - He took legs off the serpent - and he would eat dust. So it is.

Essentially - evolvultion is the least of it. God works how He chose to work... evolution sans a Creator is impossible iMHO - because the world is so ordered - an impossible mathematical feat without an Intelligent Entity as the driving force.
 
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Two questions, respectfully, WA:

First of all, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the word "purgatory" is NEVER used in this original account! For all we know, it is a bridge of temptation that we read in all the ancient Fathers and the Orthodox faith of today...

Secondly, can you find the actual real original account of this that isn't tainted by a Catholic website's desire to embellish and insert vocab and ideas into it? Where is the primary source?

St Perpetua... ahem.

Story of the Martyrdom of Sts. Felicity and Perpetua - Catholic Culture




O yah - this is in the early early Church dude.
The martyrs speak. :p

Perpetua's greatest suffering nevertheless was for her baby who was with her. Baptism, however, drove away her fears and with the coming of the Holy Spirit she was at peace and the prison became to her as a palace; in visions she learned the manner of their martyrdom and caught glimpses of what awaits souls in the life after death. Among these was a vision of Purgatory where she saw her little brother Dinocratus suffering.
Dinocratus had died when he was only seven, painfully ulcerated about the face. Perpetua saw him "coming out of a dark place where there were many others," dirtily clad, pale, with the wound still on his face, and he was very hot and thirsty. Near him was a fountain but its brim was higher than he could reach and, though he stood on tiptoe, he could not drink. By this vision she knew he needed her prayers, and she prayed for him night and day. On the day the Christians were put in stocks, she had another vision and saw Dinocratus freed. This time he was clean and finely clothed, on his face was a clean scar and beside him a low fountain reaching only to his waist. On the edge of the fountain was a golden cup ever full of water, and Dinocratus drank. "And when he had drunk he came away — pleased to play, as children will."
 
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Lady Bug

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JimmyP I am in your position such that I have absolutely no problem continuing my relationship with Jesus Christ and delving into His Word and praying, etc. but I had not been able to consent to the RCC as a whole; I am very sorry, I was quite zealous for this in the beginning but I can't anymore but at the same time I have met people here I like and they've been friends for a long time and I don't want to feel like I betrayed them by stepping down from conversion...I've tried but I can't do it like I thought I could...:|

ps. was that the longest sentence or what, man?
 
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I agree. There is a lot of amazingly good stuff in Catholicism, but I can't "got there" anymore either. I'd go Anglican before I could go back....

JimmyP I am in your position such that I have absolutely no problem continuing my relationship with Jesus Christ and delving into His Word and praying, etc. but I had not been able to consent to the RCC as a whole; I am very sorry, I was quite zealous for this in the beginning but I can't anymore but at the same time I have met people here I like and they've been friends for a long time and I don't want to feel like I betrayed them by stepping down from conversion...I've tried but I can't do it like I thought I could...:|

ps. was that the longest sentence or what, man?
 
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WarriorAngel

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Gurney - Latin is the word - purge.
[Did you know most of the English language derives from Latin, Greek and then some from English - but not as many.

Anyway - show me the word trinity in the Bible. ;)

Terms explain the concept - doesnt mean they had to be existent from the beginning.
Another example would be homosexual.
It simply didnt exist til more recent years...should we think that Leviticus and Paul werent referring to that?

Just saying...\
The word card - isnt always the issue. The definition.

Perpetua saw her brother and saw he needed prayers so she prayed for him - she saw he was released.
Year 202 AD.

Peace
 
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Lady Bug

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I agree. There is a lot of amazingly good stuff in Catholicism, but I can't "got there" anymore either. I'd go Anglican before I could go back....
I don't know why but I think of people like Elton John when I think of Anglicanism...never mind I know why. lol
 
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No, LB, that's EPISCOPALIANS, not regular Anglicans! ^_^ There are plenty of Anglican provinces where "Rocket Man" isn't ok! LOL

I don't know why but I think of people like Elton John when I think of Anglicanism...never mind I know why. lol
 
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Wolseley

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Okay, Jimmy, I'm back. It's late, but I'll get some of this in anyway. Just for you, Big Guy. I don't do this for just anybody, yanno. I used to spend hours doing this, but I don't have the stamina any more.

Prayers to Mary, ok, I read that happened in 250 AD...but where is it approved in the Bible?

First off, you have to understand that not everything comes from the Bible. For example, John 21:25 says that not everything Jesus said or did is written down, and Acts 20:35 contains a saying of Jesus not found in the Gospels. Further, Paul tells his audience in 1 Corinthians 11:2, "hold fast to the traditions I handed on to you"; in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 he says "hold fast to tradtions whether oral or by letter"; and in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 he says "shun those not acting according to tradition".

Epiphanius of Salamis writes this in The Panarion: "It is needful also to make use of Tradition; for not everything can be gotten from Sacred Scripture. The holy Apostles handed down some things in the Scriptures, other things in Tradition." (61:6).

Catholics believe that all believers---whether in heaven, on earth, or in purgatory, are all part of one united body; this is called the Communion of Saints. Ergo, we are all connected. Meaning that you can talk to members of the Body of Christ who have already passed on, but you can't get ahold of them by using Ma Bell; you have to pray to them.

Now: it must be clearly understood that when you pray to Mary or a saint, you do NOT ask them to forgive your sins, or effect your salvation, or anything else that only God can do for you; all you do is ask them to pray for you, the same as you'd ask your mom or your neighbor or your pastor to pray for you.

Jimmy P said:
And Purgatory, I still can't understand why it would be needed since the Blood of Jesus cleans us from ALL sin...if we're cleaned from it all, why would there be a need for Purgatory...

Well, purgatory isn't about taking your sins away; purgatory is about cleansing you of the last effects of your sinful nature. Nothing impure can stand in God's Presence, so undergoing purgation cleanses you of the last of this before you enter heaven.

Purgatory isn't something "additional" to the completed redemptive work of Christ; it's a part of His complete work. He died, you believed, you were baptized, you die, you go through purgatory, you go to heaven. All one package. :)

It might help to understand that nobody really knows what purgatory consists of; you'll read stuff written by pious authors that say one thing or another, but the Church has never clearly defined what purgatory actually consists of. Personally, I think it's a cleansing you undergo on the journey to heaven (the "tunnel" that the near-death experiencers all talk about), but that's just me. :)

Jimmy P said:
Alot of what I'm reading is showing me this dude said this and this dude stated that...and it became law...but I'm not really seeing so much about where it's backed up by the Bible...

Once again, not everything is in the Bible. The things that appear in the Patristic Writings are Sacred Tradition, which is just as much the infallible Word of God as Holy Scripture; it's just that they weren't written down until the New Testament was already composed.

Remember: Protestants interpret Scripture in light of itself; Catholics interpret Scripture and Tradition in light of each other. :) This is whay Catholics and Protestants can take a verse of Scripture and come up with totally different interpretations of it.

Jimmy P said:
And for example, I know about the binding and loosing, so if a Priest says "You're not absolved" does that mean I cannot get to the Father but through Jesus AND the Priest?

The only reason a priest would not absolve you of a sin would be if you are refusing to give up the sin for some reason; so in that sense of the word, it's not the priest who's blocking you from access to God, it's you. :) Now: you can confess your sins directly to God, and He will hear and honor your confession; but the only way you can partake of the sacraments is to recieve formal absolution from the priest. That's not for God's benefit, but for yours, so you'll know you're squared away. Remember that it is not the priest who forgives your sins; God forgives your sins, He is merely using the priest as the instrument to do it. :)
 
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Wolseley

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Jimmy P said:
And didn't the Catholic church break away around 1054 or somewhere around that time? And that's how we have the East Orthodox?

1054, yes. Most of it was political. Hang on, this is about to get lengthy. :)
The Catholic view is that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), has jurisdiction over the entire Church. The Orthodox view is that there was more or less an equality between the Bishops of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. This dichotomy had been developing for centuries. Early Patristic literature will reveal that the earliest Church viewed Rome as the headquarters of the Church, and that this view goes back to as early as 96 AD.

However, the Roman Empire was in fact two distinct spheres---East and West. As Christianity gradually became legalized and more a part of the cultural structure, it, too, reflected this difference. In the West, people spoke Latin; in the East, they spoke Greek. You had two sets of Canon laws, two sets of dates for the celebrations of Christmas and Easter, two different versions of the Nicene Creed. After about the 11th century, when the Pope tried to exert authority over Eastern bishops, they resisted him on the grounds that he was exerting authority that did not belong to him. The West saw the East as not adhering to the ancient patterns of authority that Jesus established with Peter and the Roman See.

Again, this was a long, gradual separation; it took about a thousand years for the real friction to begin, and that had a lot to do with culture, once again. In the East, you had "Byzantine" Christianity, what we now call Orthodox; it was based on the Greek liturgy and was heavily influenced by the Eastern Emperors. In the West, you had "Latin" Christianity, which, after 476, wasn't influenced too much by the Roman Emperor since there wasn't any Roman Emperor. There had been cooperation between the Bishop of Rome and the Emperors in the calling of the first eight ecumenical councils; but now, there wasn't any Emperor, and when the 1st Lateran Council was called by Pope Callistus, only Western Bishops attended.

(It is worth noting that between the years 314 and 655, out of the Sees of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople, only Rome never had a heretical bishop. [In fact, no Bishop of Rome has ever taught heresy.] In the years 512 and 639, all three of the Sees other than Rome had Patriarchs which were Monophysites and Monothelites; at other times, they were Arians or Nestorians.)

The whole thing came to a head when the phrase "from the Son" was inserted into the Nicene Creed at the Council of Toledo in 589. The Eastern Bishops preferred the wording "through the Son", and they did not understand that the wording at Toledo was chosen to combat a heresy in the West at the time; to them, it simply seemed as if the bishops of the West were ignoring the East's concerns. In reality, it was probably a case of both sides totally misunderstanding the other.

Did anybody doubt that the Holy Spirit came from both the Father and the Son? Probably not, but that wasn't the point. The Eastern Church viewed the West as meddling with the Creed, while the West viewed the East as refusing to acknowledge the supremacy of the Roman See. The divergence developed further from this point onward.

The final split probably would have come about anyway, but the two principal actors in the drama certainly didn't help things any. An ailing Pope Leo IX had ordered all Greek-rite churches in Italy to adapt Latin-rite liturgies. The Patriarch of Constantinople, whom I'll discuss in a minute, retaliated by ordering all Latin-rite churches in Constantinople to adopt Greek liturgies. The Latin-rite churches refused, and the Patriarch promptly shut them all down, and wrote a letter to the Bishop of Trani in which he castigated all Latin-rite practices on no uncertain terms. This letter, or a copy of it, was passed on to Rome; the Pope was outraged.

At this point, a couple of provincial couriers from Constantinople showed up in Rome, bearing letters from the Patriarch to the Pope. In them, the Patriach had addressed the Pope as "Brother" instead of the customary "Father", and he had signed it "Ecumenical Patriarch", which the Pope and his cardinals construed as meaning Patriarch of the whole Church, East and West. Actually, use of the Greek term Oikoumene, at least insofar as the Patriarch of Constantinople was concerned, meant only the Byzantine Empire, but the Pope's legates didn't realize this.

The Pope sent his secretary legate, a guy named Cardinal Humbert of Moyen-Moutier, to Constantinople with a letter condemning the Partiarch for his upstart usage of the term "Ecumenical Patriarch", and criticizing his closure of the Latin-rite churches within his jurisdiction. The Pope couldn't have made a poorer choice of whom to send; Humbert didn't speak Greek, had no use for the Byzantines, was hot-tempered, and was a career ladder-climber in the Roman Curia. On the other hand, the Patriarch, a guy named Michael Cerularius, was no pearl either; he had spent most of his career as a civil servant, had no training in diplomacy of any kind, had no use for Latin liturgy or the Papacy, and was ambitious, unsubtle, and more than a tad arrogant.

The irritated Humbert was not received with open arms in Constantinople, and this annoyed him further. Deprived of the customary diplomatic niceties, he in turn shoved the letter from the Pope into the Patriarch's hands without so much as a hello. For his part, the Patriarch couldn't believe that the Bishop of Rome would dare to address him in such a manner, and decided that Humbert and his legates were therefore phonies; he refused to accept them as legitimate representatives from Rome, curtly dismissed them, and refused to have anything more to do with them.

This sent the Romans into transports of rage. They stayed in Constantinople for a while and were received by the Byzantine Emperor, who treated them kindly and urged them to try to work things out with the Patriarch. The Patriarch continued to ignore them, however, and finally, on Saturday, July 16, 1054, Cardinal Humbert barged into the Church of Holy Wisdom right in the middle of Holy Mass, and slammed a letter down on the main altar excommunicating the Byzantine Emperor, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and all their followers, and departed, actually wiping the dust from his feet as he did so. Whether or not Humbert actually had the authority to make this move is questionable, but he made it anyway, and the Patriarch replied in kind by excommunicating the Pope and all Latin Christians, and the break was complete.

The whole thing can be attributed in large part to egotistic personalities and the regional politics of the period; there were underlying religious differences, of course, but it really shouldn't have come to the break that it did. Both sides made mistakes, and both sides totally misunderstood the other. The mutual excommunications were lifted on December 7, 1965, by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athanagoras I.

I realize that was lengthy, but I really only barely touched the surface of the Eastern Schism; is you ever decide to examine the depths of the politics behind the whole thing, you will find them fascinating; we don't have the term "Byzantine" (meaning labarinthine complexity and devious intrigue) for nothing.
 
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Wolseley

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Jimmy P said:
Can't EO have Priests that marry? Weren't some of the Apostles married men?

Yep, they do. And yes, they were. Eastern-rite Catholics have married clergy. But the Latin Rite does not, for various reasons. It ain't wrong, it's just different.

Jimmy P said:
Did the Apostles set up their churches and swing incense? Wear the tall hat, the fancy outfits? I would have figured them to still be out teaching about Jesus, in their dirty sandals and robes...

Incense comes from the Bible; Revelation 8:4 says "The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand." The idea is that your prayers rise towards heaven just as smoke does.

The tall hat and the vestments are actually copied from the formal attire worn by political officials in the late Roman Empire. Most well-apppinted Romans dressed that way, but when the Western Empire collapsed, the Germanic barbarians came in, and they dressed rough: furs, skins, coarse homespun clothing, and it was shirts and breeches, not togas and robes. The vestments worn by the Christian clergy were retained as a symbol of their office as servants of God and the Church.

Jimmy P said:
And the Baptism sprinkling...how is that being 'buried' with Christ?

Baptism is a "washing"; the Greek word baptizo literally means "to apply water". But what is buried is your old nature; just as Christ was placed in the tomb and rose glorified, your old man was buried when you were baptized, and you became a new creature. But you don't need to be immersed in water for this to happen. Baptism is through water and the Spirit (John 3:5), and the Spirit can work whether you're sprinkled, dunked, poured on, or thrown in a swimming pool. :)

Jimmy P said:
Don't worry Sil, I didn't wanna go anywhere...I was just hoping I wasn't gonna be kicked out of the OBOB Club...

Good heavens, man---you can stay here forever, whether you join the club or not. We won't throw you out. :)

Jimmy P said:
I never meant to be at this point, it happened...believe me, I've prayed and prayed and prayed on this...

Last thing I want to do is upset my family here...I love ya all like crazy and that's one thing that made it so hard to post this today...I'm not giving up, just at this point at the moment...not sure where I'm headed...but wherever it is, God is there...

It's not at all unusual to have these confusions and doubts, Jimmy. I used to work in RCIA years ago, and I never met a convert yet who didn't go though exactly what you are, to some degree. Personally, I think it's part of the process of weeding out all the doubts and problems so you can go forward with an easy mind.

See, I figured by the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin, then that way we're ready when we die...that part that says "It is appointed for man to die once and after this the Judgement"

To me, that sounds like as soon as you pass on from this life, BOOM, you stand before God to see where you're going...am I right in that?

The usual concept is that you die, you face God and are accepted or rejected, which is the personal judgement, and then at the end of time, everyone goes through the Last Judgement. The thing is, which judgement was the writer of Hebrews talking about in this verse? :)

I don't know. My handle on eschatology is a little shakey.

Couldn't the Vatican pay out to the Parishes that are having rough financial times? I thought I read that the Vatican has alot of money? Couldn't they use it to help their Priests and Parishes?

The Vatican usually runs in the red most years. They don't have any more money than anybody else. And yes, they have a lot of painting and buildings and whatnot, but they don't belong to the Holy See, they belong to the whole Church, just like the president doesn't own the White House, the American people do.

Jimmy P said:
Another thing, when I saw you type evolve, reminded me..I saw that it's ok to believe in Evolution? I understand it said as long as we believe God is the creator in all that...
How is that possible? To believe in both? I thought it was either Creationism or Evolution...and if evolution were real and we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Why haven't they evolved?

The Church says that as long as you acknowledge that God is the Ultimate Source, Who created everything, you can believe either way. Maybe Adam was created from dust and imbued with a soul; maybe man evolved through evolution and at some point God gave him a soul. The Church has no definite stance on this.

Personally, I think evolution is a fairy tale for adults, but that's me. :)

Jimmy P said:
I would think if dinosaurs were real, wouldn't they be mentioned throughout the Bible? I know there's mention of a possible one, in Job 40 is it?

"Leviathan"; Job 3:8, Job 41:1, Job 41:12, Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1.

"Behemoth"; Job 40:15.

Nobody is sure what Leviathan and Behemoth were; there are various interpretations. They could be dinosaurs. It's interesting to note that all ancient cultures mention dragons, and they make no distinction between these creatures and any other creatures they mention; but, because we don't see any dragons any more, modern man has decided that must be mythological.

Personally, I think that dinosaurs survived a lot later than the paleontologists want us to believe, and that these survivors were the "dragons" mentioned, as I said, in virtually every ancient culture. But of course, once again, that's me. People laugh at me for some of my alternative ideas, but since they weren't there at the time and neither was I, they don't really know for sure any more than I do. ;) (They like to think they do, though.)

Jimmy P said:
So would that make Adam a caveman? I get lost in things like that...

I'm not sure where Adam set up housekeeping with Eve. Could have been a cave, I suppose. Could have been something else. That's one of those things we'll probably never know until we cross over. :)
 
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Michie

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Michie, I'm glad you had a weird time of this too...so you know the point I'm at right now...I never meant to be at this point, it happened...believe me, I've prayed and prayed and prayed on this...

I'm still having a weird time of it. ^_^ Don't rush. If God wants you in the Church, you'll know. If you ever go to the library pick up Scott Hahn's Rome Sweet Home. It's a good read. Lots of Scripture & will help you in your areas of confusion simply. It may not turn you Catholic but it will give you a better understanding of the things you object to. Scott Hahn was the same. He even tore up his granny's rosary.

It took me a couple years & I fought it tooth & nail at times. If you are having doubts it is better to wait when & if you ever become Catholic. All that matters at this point is your relationship with Jesus Christ & listening to Him. So don't sweat it.
 
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WarriorAngel

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As per what Wols said about the language difference - St Maximus the Confessor defended the Pope and West in the East saying it was likely their language and that pretty much the East ought to chill out.

St Maximus was martyred in the East later for defending the authority of the Western Pope. At which time a light came out of his tomb- and he was declared a Saint - which kept the east with the West. Being he was defending the Pope - no doubt he was made a Saint by God.
In his time - the Monophysites [i believe it was one of the M's aka heretics] that exiled and martyred St Martin the Pope for not accepting their heresy.
I want to say - by memory - that St Maximus had his tongue cut out and then killed.

The history of the Church was so brutal.

We know St Cyprian [or was it Cyrian i get these two confused. :holy: - the names are so close and i am writing this fully on memory] he said to cross ourselves for everything - which at that time was crossing the thumb over the forehead.
Well, as things always were in the imperfect world - eventually this evolved to the whole torso - and the East did it one way - the West did it another... and ppl were killed for doing it the opposite way. :sigh:

SO tension always existed. Petty things must have driven our Lord to distraction. But the Church survived through out 2000 years and the heretics were recanted - dismissed and the teachings remained as the HS wanted.

A lot of folks get caught up in 'practice' aka 'discipline' and forget the whole important stuff - teachings which dont change.

In fact - when a 'new thing' appears [so called new] in history - its not new - its a defining of what always was against that which was new.
IE - heresy pops up - the Church gets together and says 'that aint right' - and then the Pope who has the special charism of the Chair of Peter says yay or nay and then its done VIA the Chair has spoken.

The history of the Church is so in depth - and so long it would take a good measure of time to read it all.
I have been seriously reading it the last 10 years - and i havent even got into it all.

Go to youtube and watch 'St Augustine - the full movie' to see how the Goths were taking over portions.
St Augustine however; being diplomatic - granted them a grace to be part of the Church - to become leaders in the Church.
Which seemed to open relations with them.
Goths - i think they were Goths were 'nomads' so to speak... who liked to conquer and control.

And there are tons of movies on the Saints - really good viewing compared to the nasty junk on tv these days.
 
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