Are Messianics/Jews4Jesus just evangelicals with yarmulkes?

jamesjhnstn said:

I have read some of their beliefs and they go in line with Pauline, Nicene, and Protestant Christianity: The Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Original Sin, Belief in Hell, Biblical inerrancy and literalism, and other things nowhere to be found in Judaism. Are there any THEOLOGICAL differences among Messianics that make them stand out?

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There are differences in beliefs among them. For example your title of Messianic Jew is closer to evangelical Christianity than the groups who desire to be under Messianic Judaism's label.
I happen to think that in the study of the Gospels, the Messianic Jew brings added cultural and contextual answers to some of the toughest bible questions.
For a five star Hebrew Christian, Messianic Jewish website look for Ariel Ministries!

jamesjhnstn said:

I have read some of their beliefs and they go in line with Pauline, Nicene, and Protestant Christianity: The Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Original Sin, Belief in Hell, Biblical inerrancy and literalism, and other things nowhere to be found in Judaism. Are there any THEOLOGICAL differences among Messianics that make them stand out?

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When Jews for Jesus first got their chat line, I talked on it every day for a decade.

The reason I stayed was because I defended every single Jew that came in the place from the mods and people who hung there.

They would tell the Jew that if he was even keeping the feast of Passover that he was wrong.

Everything I have heard of them is ridiculous that they have a name like that.

They give Messianics a bad name.



If they put anti-semites{They were} as mods on their chat line, I think it says a lot about them.

Their idea is to take a Jew and make him a non Jew.

Wow I never knew that Hannibal. They had some awesome tshirts is all I knew of them. What about chosen people ministries? I know Mitch Glazer the leader, is from the Fruchtenbaum camp.

intojoy said:

Wow I never knew that Hannibal. They had some awesome tshirts is all I knew of them. What about chosen people ministries? I know Mitch Glazer the leader, is from the Fruchtenbaum camp.

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Who is this Fruchtanbaum?

Did he write a bible?

Probably way smarter than me, just never heard of him.

intojoy said:

Wow I never knew that Hannibal. They had some awesome tshirts is all I knew of them. What about chosen people ministries? I know Mitch Glazer the leader, is from the Fruchtenbaum camp.

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Shalom,

Is this the Dr. Fruchtenbaum you are referencing?

Arnold Fruchtenbaum was born in 1943 in Siberia, Russia after his Jewish father — falsely accused of being a Nazi spy when he fled Poland from Hitler — was released from a Communist prison. With the help of the Israeli underground in 1947, the Fruchtenbaum family escaped from behind the Iron Curtain to Germany, where they were confined to British Displaced Persons' camps. There, Arnold received Orthodox Jewish training from his father before the family finally immigrated to New York in 1951. Before their release, however, the family was befriended by a Lutheran minister; and it was this contact that eventually led Arnold and his mother to the New York headquarters of the American Board of Missions to the Jews (ABMJ). Five years later, this same meeting brought Arnold, at age 13, to saving knowledge of Jesus the Messiah.

Read more at: Ariel Ministries: Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

Yes, that's the fellow. Sweet demeanor, and gentle as the day is long. But his theology is entirely within the realm of Christian thinking. He truly does fit the description of "Evangelicalism with a Kippah". Sometimes, with him, it is even tough to find the kippah.

sacerdote said:

Shalom,

Is this the Dr. Fruchtenbaum you are referencing?

Arnold Fruchtenbaum was born in 1943 in Siberia, Russia after his Jewish father — falsely accused of being a Nazi spy when he fled Poland from Hitler — was released from a Communist prison. With the help of the Israeli underground in 1947, the Fruchtenbaum family escaped from behind the Iron Curtain to Germany, where they were confined to British Displaced Persons' camps. There, Arnold received Orthodox Jewish training from his father before the family finally immigrated to New York in 1951. Before their release, however, the family was befriended by a Lutheran minister; and it was this contact that eventually led Arnold and his mother to the New York headquarters of the American Board of Missions to the Jews (ABMJ). Five years later, this same meeting brought Arnold, at age 13, to saving knowledge of Jesus the Messiah.

Ariel Ministries: Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Click to expand...

mishkan said:

Yes, that's the fellow. Sweet demeanor, and gentle as the day is long. But his theology is entirely within the realm of Christian thinking. He truly does fit the description of "Evangelicalism with a Kippah". Sometimes, with him, it is even tough to find the kippah.

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Probably why I have disagreed with everything I've seen people quote from him thus far.

sacerdote said:

Shalom,

Is this the Dr. Fruchtenbaum you are referencing?

Arnold Fruchtenbaum was born in 1943 in Siberia, Russia after his Jewish father — falsely accused of being a Nazi spy when he fled Poland from Hitler — was released from a Communist prison. With the help of the Israeli underground in 1947, the Fruchtenbaum family escaped from behind the Iron Curtain to Germany, where they were confined to British Displaced Persons' camps. There, Arnold received Orthodox Jewish training from his father before the family finally immigrated to New York in 1951. Before their release, however, the family was befriended by a Lutheran minister; and it was this contact that eventually led Arnold and his mother to the New York headquarters of the American Board of Missions to the Jews (ABMJ). Five years later, this same meeting brought Arnold, at age 13, to saving knowledge of Jesus the Messiah.

Read more at: Ariel Ministries: Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

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Sounds like Arnold had the same issues in his day with his Jewish father as we have today here in this forum:

His father strongly opposed Arnold's beliefs, and when the family moved to Los Angeles in 1958, Arnold was forbidden to read the Bible, attend Christian meetings or associate with Jewish-Christian groups. Under these difficult circumstances, Arnold continued as best he could to maintain contact with Jewish believers and to walk with the Lord.

Upon graduating from high school, Arnold was forced by his father to leave home because of his faith.

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He found it challenging to remain Jewish and believe in Yeshua too. His own father rejected him for being a Jewish Christian. Which btw has been the standard definition for centuries for Jews who remain Jewish but place faith in Yeshua. The modern monacher of Messianic was devised to seperate the neo-Messianics (one law) from the traditional ones. And so the divide between Jew and Gentiles grew, and grows by leaps and bounds, as seen by the continual open-handed slam of all things Christian by Mishkan here.

This more than likely will never cease. The whole title of this thread refers to a derogetory label leveled at Jews who believe in Yeshua. Before it was the Jews in our life who disowned us, as proven by the all to common reaction by Arnolds father. But today it has been mirrored by the Gentiles who now seek to disown us from our very movement. By again calling us not Jews and disown us as mere pagan Christians.

To me, this fulfills the prophesy by Yeshua that we will be hated by all for the message Yeshua gave us to witness.

As a Jew who's family went through the shoah, while others escaped the programs I find it highly offensive what Mishkan and the like level against my faith as a believing Jew. Not to mention I find this whole thread a bait to further the rasicm that Jewish Christians do not remain Jewish.

If this is the goal of neo-Messianics (and the SOP of the MJ forum), to further the seperation between Jews and the Christian faith, then I find it a very subvertive motive. As the whole goal of Yeshua is to unite Jews(Israel) and the nations as one in Him. And this by the indwelling of the Spirit, not through observance to the Torah given Moses. But by the Torah given Yeshua, which is not a repeat of such. No more than the Torah given Abraham is the same as that given Moses.

This type of charater assasination is completely opposed to the love Yeshua taught, and the message Yeshua gave. It has never been the message of Jewish Christians/Messianic Jews. Till the neo-Messianics made is so. The whole message they seem to hold here is a Jew is no longer a Jew when they entertain anything related to Christianity. THIS is a completely ORTHODOX Jewish response to a Jewish Christian. One that has been leveled against us for centuries, by our non-believing Jewish family. But now it's being taken up by Gentiles who see themselves as more Jewish than us.

OOOOO look at the Christian in a kippah........ :o Korah thought he could worship just like Moses too...... look what happend to his family!

Shimshon said:

Sounds like Arnold had the same issues in his day with his Jewish father as we have today here in this forum:He found it challenging to remain Jewish and believe in Yeshua too. His own father rejected him for being a Jewish Christian. Which btw has been the standard definition for centuries for Jews who remain Jewish but place faith in Yeshua. The modern monacher of Messianic was devised to seperate the neo-Messianics (one law) from the traditional ones. And so the divide between Jew and Gentiles grew, and grows by leaps and bounds, as seen by the continual open-handed slam of all things Christian by Mishkan here.

This more than likely will never cease. The whole title of this thread refers to a derogetory label leveled at Jews who believe in Yeshua. Before it was the Jews in our life who disowned us, as proven by the all to common reaction by Arnolds father. But today it has been mirrored by the Gentiles who now seek to disown us from our very movement. By again calling us not Jews and disown us as mere pagan Christians.

To me, this fulfills the prophesy by Yeshua that we will be hated by all for the message Yeshua gave us to witness.

As a Jew who's family went through the shoah, while others escaped the programs I find it highly offensive what Mishkan and the like level against my faith as a believing Jew. Not to mention I find this whole thread a bait to further the rasicm that Jewish Christians do not remain Jewish.

If this is the goal of neo-Messianics (and the SOP of the MJ forum), to further the seperation between Jews and the Christian faith, then I find it a very subvertive motive. As the whole goal of Yeshua is to unite Jews(Israel) and the nations as one in Him. And this by the indwelling of the Spirit, not through observance to the Torah given Moses. But by the Torah given Yeshua, which is not a repeat of such. No more than the Torah given Abraham is the same as that given Moses.

This type of charater assasination is completely opposed to the love Yeshua taught, and the message Yeshua gave. It has never been the message of Jewish Christians/Messianic Jews. Till the neo-Messianics made is so. The whole message they seem to hold here is a Jew is no longer a Jew when they entertain anything related to Christianity. THIS is a completely ORTHODOX Jewish response to a Jewish Christian. One that has been leveled against us for centuries, by our non-believing Jewish family. But now it's being taken up by Gentiles who see themselves as more Jewish than us.

OOOOO look at the Christian in a kippah........ :o Korah thought he could worship just like Moses too...... look what happend to his family!

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Too many ex-Christians with an axe to grind against the Church perhaps? Using the movement as an opportunity to grind it? I have read of this on many Messianic sites in the past.

intojoy said:

What about chosen people ministries?

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Love Chosen People ministries

"Chosen People" ministries - brought up before (as seen here in #159 ) - is an amazing ministry, although the one I'm thinking of is in regards to the ministry led by a man known as Lawrence Hirsh. Where one can go for more is to Lawrence Hirsch | Celebrate Messiah or see the article entitled [PDF] Jesus-Believing Jews in Australia: Celebrate Messiah as a Case Study. ..and in addition to that:

• Muchan Speakers
• Articles | Chosen People Ministries
• Evangelism | Chosen People Ministries
• Lawrence and Louise Hirsch | Chosen People Ministries
• Celebrating Messiah in Australia - Chosen People Ministries

I actually learned of them through another Messianic Jewish individual whom I've studied/learned from much in the Lord known as Alan Hirsh. He often works in very rough areas that many do not wish to touch. ...especially as it concerns the homeless, drug abusers, gays and lesbians. And he, alongside his brother named Lawrence Hirsh who does work with the Jewish community, have s gotten in trouble for being "unorthodox" in some ways. For more on Alan, one can go here to #24 --or one can go here, here, and here . As it concerns his books, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "NextReformation.com - Review: The Shaping of Things to Come" ...or they can go here to see his testimony:

Gxg (G²) said:

Love Chosen People ministries

"Chosen People" ministries - brought up before (as seen here in #159 ) - is an amazing ministry, although the one I'm thinking of is in regards to the ministry led by a man known as Lawrence Hirsh. Where one can go for more is to Lawrence Hirsch | Celebrate Messiah or see the article entitled [PDF] Jesus-Believing Jews in Australia: Celebrate Messiah as a Case Study. ..and in addition to that:


[*]Muchan Speakers
[*]Articles | Chosen People Ministries
[*]Evangelism | Chosen People Ministries
[*]Lawrence and Louise Hirsch | Chosen People Ministries

I actually learned of them through another Messianic Jewish individual whom I've studied/learned from much in the Lord known as Alan Hirsh. He often works in very rough areas that many do not wish to touch. ...especially as it concerns the homeless, drug abusers, gays and lesbians. And he, alongside his brother named Lawrence Hirsh who does work with the Jewish community, have s gotten in trouble for being "unorthodox" in some ways. For more on Alan, one can go here to #24 --or one can go here, here, and here . As it concerns his books, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "NextReformation.com - Review: The Shaping of Things to Come" ...or they can go here to see his testimony:

Untamed -- Alan Hirsch -- 1/2
Untamed -- Alan Hirsch -- 2/2

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Very interesting. I spent some days as a homeless person on skid row in downtown Los Angeles. I'll check this guy out.

Shimshon said:

Sounds like Arnold had the same issues in his day with his Jewish father as we have today here in this forum:He found it challenging to remain Jewish and believe in Yeshua too. His own father rejected him for being a Jewish Christian. Which btw has been the standard definition for centuries for Jews who remain Jewish but place faith in Yeshua. .
!

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True...

Technically, whenever I see Jewish disciples (or Gentiles ) saying of Jewish believers in Christ "You're not Jewish - you're just a Christian!!!" - or even trying the "Well that's just Christian" card on them the moment it comes to theological stances while saying of themselves they're the ones truly "Messianic Jewish" in lifestyle, IMHO, it is nothing more than evidence that they really don't know what it means to be "Christian" (or Messianic) to begin with as the movement intended ...as to be Messianic doesn't equate to not being Christian in thinking (false scenario) - and Biblically/historically, Jewish believers in Messiah - whether in Jerusalem or in the Diaspora - had NO problem identifying as Christian since the Way/Nazarene Sect within Judaism was also known as that (1 Peter 4:15-17 , Acts 11:25-27 Acts 26:27-29 - more shared in #42 #54 /#36 #414 ) - and the terms of discussion focused on wasn't on whether or not one was a "Christian" when it came to Jewish culture - but rather, what TYPE of Christianity one had been practicing (i.e. Jewish Christianity vs. Gentile Christianity). Other non-believing Jews have long noted this - and thus, it's not even an issue worth debating long term..

There are so many amazing Jewish believers in history - identifying as Christian - and they never let their fathers, mothers or family tell them that they were not Jewish in lifestyle since they knew that the most Jewish thing one could do was trust in Yeshua the Messiah - and seek to serve/live for HIM as a disciple of the Lord. Consequently, it didn't matter whether they had to contend with family members who stereotyped all Christians in the negative because of what other Christians did historically to Jewish people in ideology/practice - nor did it matter when other Gentiles (bitter toward the Church or seeing errors commonly taught in many Christian circles) chose to REACT to them by claiming broad-brushes/wide sweeping generalizations (i.e. "Christianity is just anti-Semitic at its core", "All Christians don't value Israel or Torah", "Christianity is Gentile focused and will never allow one to truly honor Yeshua!!!", etc.) - things that Jewish Christians never held to - be it in our time or in the early body of Christ. They were who they were - they loved God's Law and the Work of the Messiah...and they went with that.

As it concerns the OP, there've been several good threads on the issue which I thought were good for reference (some which can be found if choosing to go here to #50 ) :

• Jews for Jesus?
• Missionary Work in NY ( #16 )
• Recovering Baptist- need some help

But as it concerns the issue of Jews often disowning family members who are believers/identifying as Christians, it should be noted that it simply goes back to the central battle of witnessing for the Messiah. As said before elsewhere, with many Jewish families, the NT as you know bids Christians to provoke the Jews to religious jealousy. If interested, one of the Jewish believers I've kept up with did a rather interesting piece on what jealousy could be...and how it's possibly misunderstood..


For more, here's the article by one who's an Eastern Catholic Jew (and who has worked with Messianic fellowships).....and to see what she said, one can go online/look it up under the following:

• The Faithfulness of Israel | The Groom's Family ( )
• The Faithfulness of Israel II | The Groom's Family ( )

For the amount of Jewish people who are coming to Christ in droves from all kinds of backgrounds---be it in the U.S or Israel and other places globally--- it is interesting to see the developments.

What provoked/MADE them jealous was seeing the simple LOVE and POWER TO BE Delivered from bondages that made them realize how real Christ was. In example, when you're dealing with Crack-Cocaine addictions or caught in prostitution, it doesn't matter to many whether you're "Messianic" or not since they're looking to know whether or not someone truly loves them and can give them hope. To see the kind of love that Yeshua showed others who were often deemed untouchable by others in the Jewish religious leadership (Luke 14, Luke 15, Matthew 8, John 8, etc), it was his radical mindset toward interaction that got their attention.....and for many Jews who are agnostic, they're actually tired of much of the debates about what is or isn't "Jewish." They grew up in many differing camps of Judaism---and many times, though their parents/community were serious about what they believed, it simply wasn't something that they felt fulfillment in....till they came to fall in love with the Grace/Truth revealed in Christ (John 1).

The Gospel is what must be central....but, many Messianics don't even preach the Gospel. Rather, they're happy just "keeping" the Torah and "getting back to their roots" - and yet never being consistent in preaching Christ. One of the ladies in my fellowship who's Jewish had this experience with her mother - who sworn growing up she could never be a Christian since she was Jewish (and in her mind, to be Christian - as she had seen it growing up - meant that you had to reject being Jewish) - and on her deathbed, she had prayed/asked the Lord to reveal Himself to her....and she died in peace accepting that Christ was the Messiah. Amazing to see what went down - and that at the end of the day, it wasn't discussion on Torah alone that won her heart - or discussion on Jewish customs.

It was studying who the man known as Yeshua was all about - and that is what she needed to truly be Jewish as the Lord always intended.

Can you imagine what would've happened if the centrality of the Gospel was not kept central for many Jews who came to faith? The Body would be diminished - you'd not hear of others, for example, like the author of "Tortured for Christ" Rev. Richard Wurmbrand (who is known in differing Messianic Jewish circles due to how he spoke in them often as an international Messianic Jewish leader in the body, more here and here, #231 /#235 )...

I'm truly taken about by how many Jews noted that what brought them to YESHUA was seeing the love and compassion shown to them by believers. One Messianic Jew noted how he was challenged to dare trusting in Yeshua even though he used to say he didn't need that - as something simply wouldn't let him have peace in thinking only Gentiles needed to have Yeshua or that Gentiles were "crazy" for trusting in Christ.


For another example, I'm reminded of Rabbi Baruch Rubin - president of Messianic Jewish Communications and Rabbi of Emmanuel Messianic Jewish Congregation , both of Clarksville, Maryland. His story stands out to me when seeing what it was that impacted him to trusting Yeshua ..and in his words (for brief excerpt):




Powerful!!!

mishkan said:

Yes, that's the fellow. Sweet demeanor, and gentle as the day is long. But his theology is entirely within the realm of Christian thinking. He truly does fit the description of "Evangelicalism with a Kippah". Sometimes, with him, it is even tough to find the kippah.

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Very true. Just like the apostle Paul. However he identifies more with Peter because his ministry is aimed at Jewish missionary work. His discipleship camp teaches Jews and Gentiles the bible from a Jewish perspective. I've spent about three solid years of my life in his presence over the past two decades. He considers himself very Jewish and prefers the term Messianic Jew. He was exiled from living in Israel by the Israeli government for evangelizing huge numbers of Israelis and resides as his second choice in the state of Texas. I've seen him teach in front of thousands of people and also seen him humbly teach in when only one or two came to a meeting, he's a faithful servant of Yeshua. If you look at his itinerary you will notice that he travels the entire world from month to month teaching the scriptures and has done so without a break for over thirty years.

Shimshon said:

Sounds like Arnold had the same issues in his day with his Jewish father as we have today here in this forum:He found it challenging to remain Jewish and believe in Yeshua too. His own father rejected him for being a Jewish Christian. Which btw has been the standard definition for centuries for Jews who remain Jewish but place faith in Yeshua. The modern monacher of Messianic was devised to seperate the neo-Messianics (one law) from the traditional ones. And so the divide between Jew and Gentiles grew, and grows by leaps and bounds, as seen by the continual open-handed slam of all things Christian by Mishkan here.

This more than likely will never cease. The whole title of this thread refers to a derogetory label leveled at Jews who believe in Yeshua. Before it was the Jews in our life who disowned us, as proven by the all to common reaction by Arnolds father. But today it has been mirrored by the Gentiles who now seek to disown us from our very movement. By again calling us not Jews and disown us as mere pagan Christians.

To me, this fulfills the prophesy by Yeshua that we will be hated by all for the message Yeshua gave us to witness.

As a Jew who's family went through the shoah, while others escaped the programs I find it highly offensive what Mishkan and the like level against my faith as a believing Jew. Not to mention I find this whole thread a bait to further the rasicm that Jewish Christians do not remain Jewish.

If this is the goal of neo-Messianics (and the SOP of the MJ forum), to further the seperation between Jews and the Christian faith, then I find it a very subvertive motive. As the whole goal of Yeshua is to unite Jews(Israel) and the nations as one in Him. And this by the indwelling of the Spirit, not through observance to the Torah given Moses. But by the Torah given Yeshua, which is not a repeat of such. No more than the Torah given Abraham is the same as that given Moses.

This type of charater assasination is completely opposed to the love Yeshua taught, and the message Yeshua gave. It has never been the message of Jewish Christians/Messianic Jews. Till the neo-Messianics made is so. The whole message they seem to hold here is a Jew is no longer a Jew when they entertain anything related to Christianity. THIS is a completely ORTHODOX Jewish response to a Jewish Christian. One that has been leveled against us for centuries, by our non-believing Jewish family. But now it's being taken up by Gentiles who see themselves as more Jewish than us.

OOOOO look at the Christian in a kippah........ :o Korah thought he could worship just like Moses too...... look what happend to his family!

Click to expand...

annier said:

Too many ex-Christians with an axe to grind against the Church perhaps? Using the movement as an opportunity to grind it? I have read of this on many Messianic sites in the past.

Click to expand...

Perhaps this is what "Dr. F" has done, (theologically speaking) because of the rejection from his father?

Hmmm . . .

Gxg (G²);63550328 said:

Technically, whenever I see Gentiles saying of Jewish believers in Christ "You're not Jewish - you're just a Christian!!!" - or even trying the "Well that's just Christian" card on them the moment it comes to theological stances while saying of themselves they're the ones truly "Messianic Jewish" in lifestyle, , it is nothing more than evidence that they really don't know what it means to be "Christian" (or Messianic) to begin with ...as to be Messianic doesn't equate to not being Christian in thinking (false scenario) - and Biblically/historically, Jewish believers in Messiah - whether in Jerusalem or in the Diaspora - had NO problem identifying as Christian since the Way/Nazarene Sect within Judaism was also known as that (1 Peter 4:15-17 , Acts 11:25-27 Acts 26:27-29 ). Other non-believing Jews have long noted this - and thus, it's not even an issue worth debating long term..

As it concerns the OP, there've been several good threads on the issue which I thought were good for reference (some which can be found if choosing to go here to #50 ) :

• Jews for Jesus?
• Missionary Work in NY ( #16 )
• Recovering Baptist- need some help

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Yes, I'm very familiar with J4J, as the Rabbi of my congregation 10 yrs ago was friends with Moishe Rosen. We used to pray for him and his ministry every shabbat. Oh, btw, my congregation was more orthodox than not. It's what caused the rift between the Rabbi's son and daughter and the congregation. We eventually formed a sister congregation for ourselves. Again, the difference of embracing too much of Rabbinical Judaism was the issue. So we split, and grew exponetially larger. I gravitated toward the previous congregation because of my observant mindset at the time. But the Rabbi was stuck in his ways and so his son-in-law (a sabra) started a new congregation that would focus more on Yeshua and less on tradition.

So strange isn't it. The Jews have no problem with seeing themselves released from the condemnation of Torah observance, yet the gentiles can only seem to promote the condemnation of the lack of Torah observance. Meaning, Messianic Jews don't focus on their Torah observance as the goal of Yeshua's message. This seems to be a Gentiles angst. They are all about the Torah, seemingly to the exclusion of Yeshua's message. So they reinterpret the message given to be one of Torah observance....problem solved....for them anyway.

daq said:

Perhaps this is what "Dr. F" has done, (theologically speaking) because of the rejection from his father?

Hmmm . . .

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It was not Fruchtenbaums site. It was the messianic Jewish rabbinical councils site I believe. It concerned the new development of "GENTILE CONVERSION" And the various classes of Gentiles they seen developing in the movement. Deciding which one of those classes would legitimately qualify for such a thing. But mjrc was not not the only one to note this aspect.
Arnold is not unique in his experience. Many Jews face rejection from their own kinsman for believing in Christ. That too is something many Gentiles with an axe to grind do not look at much. They like to look at the Church alone being responsible for Jewish separation from Christian belief. No, not so. Jews were the first to reject their own for belief. Arnold is not unique in that aspect.

annier said:

It was not Fruchtenbaums site. It was the messianic Jewish rabbinical councils site I believe. It concerned the new development of "GENTILE CONVERSION" And the various classes of Gentiles they seen developing in the movement. Deciding which one of those classes would legitimately qualify for such a thing. But mjrc was not not the only one to note this aspect.
Arnold is not unique in his experience. Many Jews face rejection from their own kinsman for believing in Christ. That too is something many Gentiles with an axe to grind do not look at much. They like to look at the Church alone being responsible for Jewish separation from Christian belief. No, not so. Jews were the first to reject their own for belief. Arnold is not unique in that aspect.

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I understand the "rejection" aspect and that is the basis of my point attempting to look at it from the perspective of a "court of public opinion" wherein evidence is brought to the table. I did not present the evidence but rather someone else who, perhaps, was attempting to create a certain amount of "sympathy" for Dr. Fruchtenbaum or cast him in a sympathetic light because of a family matter between him and his father. Whether it was a Messianic Jewish Rabbinical council site or Dr. Fruchtenbaum himself really is unimportant, (it is information which he himself must have obviously shared somewhere since the information is quoted). However, rather than garnering my own particular amount of "sympathy" for Dr. Fruchtenbaum, I rather perceive the evidence provided as both motive and impetus for his theological position. If one has an "axe to grind" with his father concerning the "religion" of his father then it is highly likely that the axe is wielded by and through his theology.

What is the final result of their activities? If it's non observant Jews, then the Torah has something to say about this.

jamesjhnstn said:

I have read some of their beliefs and they go in line with Pauline, Nicene, and Protestant Christianity...

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There are many beliefs they have which are in line with what other Jewish believers have held central to throughout the centuries - just as it is with other Messianic groups (a good collection of such being here in #44 ).

Interestingly enough, it is the case that one of the early J4Js Founders ended up an Orthodox priest, saying that Orthodoxy is more Jewish - something that's not really surprising since many Jewish believers have always desired a more Temple Like format with prayer/intercession - and for the former J4J leader as well as many others, it's significant to have a much more liturgical environment than what's found in most Messianic fellowships since they are influenced by much of the Evangelical Protestant culture that is not of a liturgically oriented venue. It is for this reason many Messianic Jews (including others from J4J) often end up joining with camps such as Orthodoxy - or Catholicism ( more shared here in #3 #10 #11 #15 ).

As it concerns the former member of "Jews for Jesus" and his views, one can see his explanation on what he experienced here:

• Fr. Bernstein a Disciple of Christ at St. Elijah​
• Fr. Bernstein Love and Salvation at St. Elijah ​

Fr. James Bernstein (who used to be an Orthodox Jew prior to J4J and later Orthodoxy) is truly amazing and I so appreciate the work he has done with other Jews involved in differing parts of Christendom. His book "Surprised by Christ" is such a godsend

• Father Bernstein Finds the Jews | The Groom's Family
• Fr. James Bernstein and Orthodoxy; Jewish and Christian - OoCities
• "Surprised by Christ - The Illumined Heart - Ancient Faith Radio"
• Fr. James Bernstein: From co-founder of “Jews for Jesus” - Ancient Christian Defender
• "Flow of Consciousness: Surprised by Christ: My Journey from Orthodox Judaism to Orthodox Christianity ..." ( )

I was very thankful for much of what he noted when it came to Divine Liturgy and the ways it reflects the Temple era/Judaic heritage - as seen in Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church - The Divine Liturgy - Father James Bernstein .



Shalom....