Father Nathan Monk stepping down from priesthood in support of LGBTQ?

buzuxi02 said:

Does it really? Why is the t in there? Aren't transgendered the ones that actually think there trapped in the wrong body? Don't see what they have in common with gays, aren't they looking for surgery?

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I believe people who are "questioning" are trying to figure out their sexuality, i.e. whether they are straight, bi or Gay. Transgendered issues are different.

Ann_of_Love said:

Some are interested in surgery, and others are happy to change their outward appearance. I have two friends going through the process of becoming eligible for surgery. It involves therapy visits and such. Lots of hoops!

The T is in there because they're considered a part of the larger community.

Also, the Q does stand for "queer". Another friend of mine is "gender queer" insofar as that person considers their gender to be fluid, and can identify as either/or on any given day.

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This is from his non-edited post:
To the LGBTQ community, I beg your forgiveness, for my silence and inaction. To my friends who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, questioning,

Wierd. Thank God I come from a different upbringing and my Christianity doesn't require I embrace these people or accept them. They sound like the Neo-nephilim.

That's really sad he left... but I can appreciate the struggle.

I know of alot of Orthodox Christians that dissent quietly or not so quietly from the teachings about human sexuality and gender. Most of them are not unprincipled. Indeed, I came to my own attitudes about gays through alot of asceticism- at one time I was very ambivalent about these issues, but I came to realize God is a consuming fire, you can't be indifferent to matters of justice and mercy and be a friend of God. God hit me over the head with this truth: the LGBT community are my brothers and sisters and at the Last Day Christ will ask me what I did for them.

perhaps a better catch all phrase would be: sexually disoriented "SD" for short?

FireDragon76 said:

That's really sad he left... but I can appreciate the struggle.

I know of alot of Orthodox Christians that dissent quietly or not so quietly from the teachings about human sexuality and gender. Most of them are not unprincipled. Indeed, I came to my own attitudes about gays through alot of asceticism- at one time I was very ambivalent about these issues, but I came to realize God is a consuming fire, you can't be indifferent to matters of justice and mercy and be a friend of God. God hit me over the head with this truth: the LGBT community are my brothers and sisters and at the Last Day Christ will ask me what I did for them.

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That somewhat true, but helping involves healing not just empathy.

If nothing else, his departure seems to indicate that the Orthodox teaching on the subject is clear and not up for debate.

FireDragon76 said:

That's really sad he left... but I can appreciate the struggle.

I know of alot of Orthodox Christians that dissent quietly or not so quietly from the teachings about human sexuality and gender. Most of them are not unprincipled. Indeed, I came to my own attitudes about gays through alot of asceticism- at one time I was very ambivalent about these issues, but I came to realize God is a consuming fire, you can't be indifferent to matters of justice and mercy and be a friend of God. God hit me over the head with this truth: the LGBT community are my brothers and sisters and at the Last Day Christ will ask me what I did for them.

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Fire why would you even want to belong to a non-principled religion like that? Wouldnt it just be easier to be an agnostic?

buzuxi02 said:

Fire why would you even want to belong to a non-principled religion like that? Wouldnt it just be easier to be an agnostic?

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I'm sure it would be easier for the Old Testament prophets to be agnostic too. God sometimes calls people to say difficult things that are not convenient, sometimes to be hated within His own people, even. Sometimes we can be like Athanasius and have the world against us altogether. Being faithful to God has never been easy.

Kristos said:

That somewhat true, but helping involves healing not just empathy.

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How would you feel if I talked about the healing that heterosexuals need in their brokeness? Alexander Schmemann was right, its a mistake to think that somehow it is only gays that are broken and subject to the Fall.

I'm not talking about the Church blessing flings at the local gay resort, and most gay Christians aren't talking about that either. The "gay lifestyle" as such doesn't exist for Christians, but then neither does the "straight lifestyle" of Ozzie and Harriet either. We have all died and our life is hidden with Christ in God.

FireDragon76 said:

I'm sure it would be easier for the Old Testament prophets to be agnostic too. God sometimes calls people to say difficult things that are not convenient, sometimes to be hated within His own people, even. Sometimes we can be like Athanasius and have the world against us altogether. Being faithful to God has never been easy.



How would you feel if I talked about the healing that heterosexuals need in their brokeness? Alexander Schmemann was right, its a mistake to think that somehow it is only gays that are broken and subject to the Fall.

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I would prefer to talk about healing Man, and not make a distinction between based on a propensity for particular sin. I don't who Fr Schmemann was addressing, but I find it hard to believe any Orthodox could think such a thing.

Kristos said:

I would prefer to talk about healing Man, and not make a distinction between based on a propensity for particular sin. I don't who Fr Schmemann was addressing, but I find it hard to believe any Orthodox could think such a thing.

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Fr. Schmemann wrote that in a comment about conservative Episcopalians grumbling in the late 80's when the first openly gay priests were ordained in the Episcopal Church. Many conservative Episcopalians viewed heterosexuality as the "cure" for homosexuality, but Schmemann was simply pointing out that heterosexuality is also disordered.

What often happens in these discussions is that there will be those who change the tone into that of whether or not we should love these people, and then ask why everyone else refuses to love and tolerate them.

But that is not the issue. Of course we all love and tolerate all people. None of us hace said otherwise. The issue is that Mr. Monk believes that Scripture does not support a one-man-one-woman-only definition of marriage, and that the Church should adopt a more inclusive definition.

I am glad that he did the right thing by stepping down instead of dragging faithful Orthodox into his error.

We do need to be reminded constantly of our own brokenness in this age because culturally that conscienceness has been lost. I think the Orthodox church does a good job of that.

"How would you feel if I talked about the healing that heterosexuals need in their brokeness? Alexander Schmemann was right, its a mistake to think that somehow it is only gays that are broken and subject to the Fall.
"

Let me say this below in caps, bold face, and italics so it is clearly and unmistakenly understood:

NO ONE IS SAYING ONLY GAYS ARE BROKEN AND SUBJECT TO THE FALL. NO ONE IS SAYING ONLY GAYS NEED TO REPENT. NO ONE IS SAYING GAYS DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED, PERSECUTED, HATED, SINGLED OUT, BULLIED, ETC. ALL ARE CALLED, WITHOUT EXCEPTION TO REPENTENCE.

Loving someone does not equal accepting everything they do. In fact love sometimes means opposing the choices our loved ones make.

If I say I love my brother, but hate his alcoholism, nobody doubts my love for him. If I say I love my father, but hate his inappropriate contentography addiction, nobody questions my love. Thus it is strange that when I say I love my friend, but hate his struggle with same-sex attraction I am immediately accused of not really loving my friend because I don't love the bad things about him. As Peter Kreeft has said, "If you love the sinner you should hate the sin even more. To love the sin along with the sinner would be like loving the cancer that inflicts the patient."

Lukaris said:

We do not know the circumstances of his ordination; I would think the apostate professed a true faith to his hierarchs & was trusted accordingly. While I agree with the general basis of the thread, hierarchs are still human & make honest errors also.

Part of my post is a little off, I was combining the ideas of the thread re hierarchs into this thread as if they were one.

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Even St. Constantine was convinced to allow Arius to return to communion by a false confession of faith.

Not saying that's what happened here, for all we know Nathan Monk was sincere and well-meaning in coming into the Orthodox Church.

I think the best thing to do would be to pray for Mr. Monk and his family, assume the best of intentions on the part of ROCOR's hierarchy and pray for them, and especially pray for those who remain in the Orthodox Church but do not hold to the Church's teachings.

GregConstantine said:

"Please do not blame anyone other than him for his poor choices."

Yes, we can blame and we will blame his bishop for ordaining Mr Monk. For it is not Mr Monk, but his bishop that ultimately decides whether or not he gets ordained.

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For the record, he was baptized the day before he was ordained. And it appears from his postings that he lied about his beliefs in order to make himself acceptable for ordination. :-/

Fr. John

ThePilgrim said:

For the record, he was baptized the day before he was ordained. And it appears from his postings that he lied about his beliefs in order to make himself acceptable for ordination. :-/

Fr. John

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I certainly don't blame the heirarchs (which is dangerous ground to tread anyway). Even if they made a mistake, everything can turn into a learning experience, even for them.

ThePilgrim said:

For the record, he was baptized the day before he was ordained. And it appears from his postings that he lied about his beliefs in order to make himself acceptable for ordination. :-/

Fr. John

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That is incredibly sad He must have hidden things [ ie his beliefs ] extremely well. This will not help converts from other denominations seeking Ordination .

Since many dont want to blame the heirarchs, I will. ROCOR has been doing this nonsense forever. How many monasteries full of inexperienced heretical converts must they bring in before they learn?

Wasn't Blanco enough, or Archbishop Lazar or the multiple parishes full of russo-american zealots that have splintered from them? Wasn't their adventures into Russian territory not enough, how about the deranged monk from Colorado? How many more embarrasing moments do they need before they learn?