I Finally Figured Out What I Don't Like About Praise and Worship Music

ebia said:

No he didn't. He said he was not king from this world. The gospel claim precisely is that in his resurrection and ascension he become king of the world.

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from* but he is not like kings from the world. I guess thats what I mean.

But I think he is a King that leads like a King but a just king, a loving king, a king worthy of worship.

Fantine said:

In terms of contemporary hymns, most of the post Vatican II hymns by people like Haas, Haugen, Foley, etc. have lyrics that are taken, almost word for word, from the Bible.

It makes me laugh when I hear people praising the lyrics of old SATB hymns that go something like:

Oh adjective, adjective, adjective God
Almighty noun and noun...

as if they are the best things since sliced bread, when they are actually a lot llike mad libs.

And then they hear a hymn with lyrics taken word for word from the psalms or other Bible verses and they start trashing it.

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Might indicate that they haven't spent enough time really noticing what the psalms say.

Fantine said:

And AS king of kings, his leadership style was that of a servant leader, or, as the "Lead Like Jesus" workshop said: servant, steward, shepherd.

The problem with calling Jesus a "king" is not the word--it's the commonly accepted images that word presents.

The kind of king Jesus is is servant, steward, shepherd.

But when we hear the word "king" we think of someone very different from who Jesus is.

Throughout His life, He fled when people tried to make Him king....and, in His leadership role, He was servant, steward, shepherd.

And that is why I don't relate to Jesus as "king" very well.

I wish that I could realize that the word "king" really meant "servant, steward, shepherd," but I have trouble with that. I am glad you are all able to mentally translate the word into the kind of leader He is, but I can't.

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Don't over-translate. Scripture chose the motif king at a time when kings were as bad as it got. Few modern kings are in the same league as Herod the Great or Nero.

i cant really relate to the image of Christ as king
i mean... leader and ruler of everything? ok but thats not so awe inspiring or something
but saying "God Almighty" is something i like
not because of UNIMAGINABLE POWER
but bc for me that really gets to the heart of God as looking over everyone and everything and watching over it
you know like the God who set everything in motion kind of thing
alpha omega etc

but king
i dunno
doesnt really ring true for me

i mean i get it theologically
but yeah

i relate better to God as savior and comforter and stuff

Fantine said:

As one of the participants said, "If Jesus had wanted to be a king, why did he keep running away and hiding in the hills whenever the people tried to make him one?"

I am not saying that Jesus is not a king, although I probably envision the concepts of king and kingdom differently than the obsolete political models from earlier historical periods.

If a litany of 50 images were set up before me and I could number them the way I wanted, that image might be #38 or so, depending on what the other images were.

When I am in a group saying public prayer, I participate in prayers that use monarchial imagery. I just don't use them in my personal prayer, or glean any inspiration from P&W songs using that imagery.

I do admit, since I moved to the Bible Belt I moved away from that imagery more....now when I hear a P&W song using monarchial imagery, I think, "Evangelicals!"

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Jesus was not here to fulfill a political mission here on earth & become king. He is the King of Kings. He was here to fulfill His mission for the Kingdom of God. Equating His kingship with earthly kings is no comparison at all.

References to his divinity & as King of the universe is referenced all throughout Scripture. You should not have a problem with Him as king because He defines the true meaning of kingship. Earthly kings do not. Everything should be measured by what He did & taught & said about himself as well as what Scripture says about Him. He is the true definition of 'king'.
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Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.


Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up -
John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.

Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.

Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.

Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."

Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.

Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.

Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.

Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.

Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.

Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.

Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.

Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.

Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.

Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.

ebia said:

And also because any century produces a fair amount of poor stuff - it takes time to weed that out. Only a small proportion of Wesley's hymns are still used regularly.

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That is true too, but I think some periods are stronger for producing music - or really any artistic form, than others.

There are probably a few reasons why the hymns for singing are not the best in the 20th century - the way the music publishing industry works being one of them.

Fantine said:

In terms of contemporary hymns, most of the post Vatican II hymns by people like Haas, Haugen, Foley, etc. have lyrics that are taken, almost word for word, from the Bible.

It makes me laugh when I hear people praising the lyrics of old SATB hymns that go something like:

Oh adjective, adjective, adjective God
Almighty noun and noun...

as if they are the best things since sliced bread, when they are actually a lot llike mad libs.

And then they hear a hymn with lyrics taken word for word from the psalms or other Bible verses and they start trashing it.

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Only someone from a tradition without good hymns could say something like that. There have always been bad hymns, but to say that older hymns are theologically empty is silly.

My favorite is probably Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence. It is theologically deep, uses some fairly sophisticated language, and is beautiful, moving, and singable. There are lots of others like it.

It even has some king imagery.

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
Our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
As of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
In the body and the blood;
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
That the powers of hell may vanish
As the darkness clears away.

At His feet the six wingèd seraph,
Cherubim with sleepless eye,
Veil their faces to the presence,
As with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

I think anyone who has trouble understanding kings as a metaphor for Christ should read more King Arthur stories. King Arthur himself is an excellent vision of how we should understand a good king, and then the Fisher King is also a very powerful Christian image.

Maybe it is harder for Americans because they have no experience of a monarch as an embodiment of the state.

Jesus Christ Himself is God.
God is a King who ruleth over all.
Therefore, Jesus Christ is a King who ruleth over all.

Praise and Worship songs are good in my end here for I once kept listening on Don Moen's P&W songs and they are so astoundingly awesome. Hey! Even my Catholic priest friend of mine who is a black American loves his songs. They are so full of energy and you can feel them.

03. Don Moen - God with Us/God is Good/Now unto the King Eternal - YouTube

Fantine said:

As one of the participants said, "If Jesus had wanted to be a king, why did he keep running away and hiding in the hills whenever the people tried to make him one?"

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The answer is simple - He wasnt to be King on earth - but in Heaven - since He is God.
Man mucks things up.
They want a King of power on earth..hence why the Jews didnt accept Him as a Heavenly King - but rather a usurper of their own power.

Truly He could not be King on earth - for His ministry was to die for us. Since Being King - laying down His life opened up the gates of Heaven.

It's really a much more powerful image to see our King giving His whole self to us. Not something kings on earth would do.

I am not saying that Jesus is not a king, although I probably envision the concepts of king and kingdom differently than the obsolete political models from earlier historical periods.

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Which is why He dismissed being king of earth.
His Kingdom is in Heaven...not here.
He was unlike the kings of the earth.

If a litany of 50 images were set up before me and I could number them the way I wanted, that image might be #38 or so, depending on what the other images were.

When I am in a group saying public prayer, I participate in prayers that use monarchial imagery. I just don't use them in my personal prayer, or glean any inspiration from P&W songs using that imagery.

I do admit, since I moved to the Bible Belt I moved away from that imagery more....now when I hear a P&W song using monarchial imagery, I think, "Evangelicals!"

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If Jesus was not King - [God] - His sacrifice wouldnt have been as meritorious.

His Kingship was hidden to man - because as King He was to willingly die for us.

It's all the more awe inspiring to know our own King - our Creator of the whole world - gave up His life for His creatures.

You may be correct to see Him differently than kings of this world. His power was given up to us as He laid down His life as a sacrifice for us.

No one can comprehend that kind of love - nor can we compare human kings to Him.
He came as King [because God is King] - but He didnt think like mankind. He didnt aspire for power on earth as most do. His power and gift in laying down that power - was in His offering.
His very blood - so we could come and be with Him.

The problem is - what humans see as a King is different in His Kingdom.
He is King - but He loves. Kings of the earth on the other hand love power and money.

Just a word of advice - also remember He is Just, and not only Mercy.

Jesus - being the victim [and without a crime] was the one on the receiving end - so only He could give them forgiveness and as such - He was also showing us to forgive those who would harm us.

He was our role model on forgiveness.
He even preached about forgiving debts to others.
Surely He could not preach it if He didnt act it.

However; that's not to say when someone willingly refuses to believe in Him - they are automatically also Heaven bound. Because their soul dies with that sin on them - and standing before the King of all creation - with hatred of Him - causes their soul [which is who they are] to flee. Because sin just cannot stand near God. Its like the magnetic affect. If you turn two magnets around - they cannot come together.

Sin is like that - it deflects us from the pull of God. Because the soul would be in much greater pain near God than in hell. Because hatred of Him - which is the disbelief in Him - pulls the soul out of His Presence.

So that's how He Judges - Just Being.
The soul sees its life before it - and flees because it knows it cannot be with Him.

We should reflect on all of this.
He is more awesome than we can anticipate. Even souls filled with sin know this and cannot be near Him.

He is King.

I believe Jesus speaks about his Kingdom some 26 times in the Gospels.

His Baptism by John the Baptist, was actually the traditional Jewish anointing of a King.

I think having a problem with this is because of an unwillingness to surrender completely to Him, but desire to hang onto self-serving agendas.


Jim

Fantine said:

Well that's not me. I totally accept that Jesus is a "king" within the context of the leadership style he demonstrated on earth.

The rest is all pomp and circumstance.

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Maybe you should ask yourself why we treat monarchs with pomp and circumstance.

While some monarchs undoubtedly think it is because they are so wonderful, that is not really the reason. The reason has more to do with ourselves. We need to treat them that way for our own good and the good of the state.

I mentioned the Fisher King above. Its a story that you might find illuminating - the king who bleeds from a wound which will not heal because of something wrong in the land, and while his wound bleeds his land suffers famine and drought and privation.

That kind of idea of the connection of the monarch to the land and people is a very old one. You can see it as well in the story of Oedipus. Although he did not know of his transgression of several serious taboos (patricide, regicide, incest) his land suffered a plague due to his guilt. It was only after he had been brought to justice and was no longer king that the land could be healed.

The idea of kingship isnt a simple one.

Fantine said:

I'm a great believer in democracy myself. Or democratic republics.

There is a reason why there are few "ruling" kings in this world today.

I think it's called "universal education."

Of course, I look at heaven differently--I'd classify it as utopian.

We've learned everything we know about Jesus from His life--in which He continuously showed he was as disinterested in the trappings of royalty as I am.

Heaven is a place where we share in God's life--and in one another's. And if Jesus wanted me to sing the "Hallelujah Chorus" in either soprano or alto part I'd be happy to do so. I love the "Hallelujah Chorus."

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I dont think God is a republican. And the reason monarchies fail us tends to be because of human failings and the Fall. There is some good reason to think that in the New Creation the government will be a monarchy.

But that is beside the point here.

If you don't bother to educate yourself on the theology, and I guess you could call it the philosophy, of kingship or monarchy, you should not be shocked to find out that gods use of kingship as a metaphor is hard for you to understand. It is actually a fairly interesting subject - how people understood themselves to be related to the state, how they saw the role of the monarch, how they saw the relation of the state and the monarch to God.

Without exploring such thing pn ones owns it is no wonder that the average American with no experience of monarchy, and in most cases a rather poor education in non-American history, finds the whole thing odd.

Do read about the Fisher King. The idea of the mystical connection between the monarch and his state, where the monarch even bleeds for the state, should give you a different way of considering Jesus role as monarch.