I Finally Figured Out What I Don't Like About Praise and Worship Music

[Brooklyn Knight]

If Jesus being the King of Kings gives you a hard time, I wonder if Mary being Queen of Heaven and Earth also gives you the chills.

...I wonder if you're aware that Jesus is also the Lord of Lords....

 

[Fantine]

Not everyone thinks in those terms. I don't think of Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth 99.9% of the time. Yes, there's that "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer, but I have trouble getting past the whole banished children of Eve mourning and weeping in this valley of tears stuff. It is probably my least favorite prayer in the entire world.

I do, however, like the "Hail, Holy Queen" hymn which is like a breath of fresh air compared to that dreary, negative prayer. Cherubim and Seraphim and heaven and earth singling, Mary being the mother of mercy and love--what a refreshing change from the prayer with the same name.

I think of Mary as a strong, brave woman--riding to another city on a donkey when nine months pregnant, giving birth in a barn, fleeing to Egypt with a toddler in tow, widowed young, having a child who was difficult to understand and who was a constant worry, especially when he incurred the wrath of the Pharisees, watching him suffer and die...she certainly deserved more than the "bit player" status the gospels consign her to.

 

[Michie]

Seems to me that you think God's character & all who follow Him is a take it or leave it situation. Because that whole narrow & wide road thing Jesus spoke about is irrelevant. We make it to heaven or own way. Problem is, that excludes the cross & the gift offered from the crucifixion. He did not die & rise again so we could just carry on as we see fit.

You sound like a typical new age workshop.

Bit player? LOL! It's all about getting the recognition with you isn't it. Ever consider that the Holy Spirit guided what is written in the Gospels?

Don't worry. Mary has more than broken through that glass ceiling.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Wow. Well - being separated from Heaven - where there are no tears - one can certainly understand that we are banished children of Eve mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

But wait - is it because we are children of Eve and she is a woman?

I dont understand how anyone has an issue with that prayer. Its truth. And until we are united in Heaven - we are banished on earth - which is a valley of tears - since we are separated from our God.

 

[Michie]

Wow. Well - being separated from Heaven - where there are no tears - one can certainly understand that we are banished children of Eve mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

But wait - is it because we are children of Eve and she is a woman?

I dont understand how anyone has an issue with that prayer. Its truth. And until we are united in Heaven - we are banished on earth - which is a valley of tears - since we are separated from our God.

It just the typical sexist garbage.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Not everyone thinks in those terms. I don't think of Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth 99.9% of the time. Yes, there's that "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer, but I have trouble getting past the whole banished children of Eve mourning and weeping in this valley of tears stuff. It is probably my least favorite prayer in the entire world.

The Assumption and Coronation of Mary slip your mind?

And what's so bad with that part of the prayer? Life isn't peachy for everyone, some sin very easily, some let their emotions get the better of them, some battle personal demons, you know, they're human.

 

[Michie]

It all boils down to original sin. She does not like it or that Eve screwed up...women don't screw up unless a man made em do it. It's than man... keeping us down! Made Mary bit players....etc. lol

 

[Fantine]

Bit player? LOL! It's all about getting the recognition with you isn't it. Ever consider that the Holy Spirit guided what is written in the Gospels?

Because there is not very much written about Mary in the Gospels, we have to fill in the blanks with our imaginations.

Isn't that what Lectio Divina is about?

Isn't that what meditating on a Bible passage by imagining yourself in as one of the characters in the passage and empathizing with their struggles is about?

I tend to drift away from visions of Mary that seemed designed to keep women "in their place" although I understand the social contexts in which they were written.

In Art and Music, I prefer the real, emotional Mary's over the alabaster-skinned maiden with the downcast eyes. "Breath of Heaven."

 

[Michie]

Because there is not very much written about Mary in the Gospels, we have to fill in the blanks with our imaginations.

Isn't that what Lectio Divina is about?

Isn't that what meditating on a Bible passage by imagining yourself in as one of the characters in the passage and empathizing with their struggles is about?

I tend to drift away from visions of Mary that seemed designed to keep women "in their place" although I understand the social contexts in which they were written.

In Art and Music, I prefer the real, emotional Mary's over the alabaster-skinned maiden with the downcast eyes. "Breath of Heaven."

Meditating on the Gospels is not a problem. Meditating on them & adding personal agendas makes it no longer the Gospel. People write fictional Christian novels all the time & run with it. Anyone can do it. Rarely have any substance & turn it into just guessing game. There is enough there to meditate on without making up or making over people/characters in our imaginations that are more to our liking.

 

[Fantine]

Meditating on the Gospels is not a problem. Meditating on them & adding personal agendas makes it no longer the Gospel. People write fictional Christian novels all the time & run with it. Anyone can do it. Rarely have any substance & turn it into just guessing game. There is enough there to meditate on without making up or making over people/characters in our imaginations that are more to our liking.

That's not what St. Ignatius says:

Ignatian Contemplation – The Process:

This method is especially appropriate for scenes from the Gospels, but also possible with other biblical narratives.

Begin: consider how God looks upon you and loves you; become aware of being in God’s presence;
stand for a moment, bow if you wish, then be seated comfortably for your time of prayer
Preparatory Prayer: offer to God all your will and actions, especially in this time of prayer;
ask God for a specific grace that you need and desire right now (peace, consolation, hope, etc.).
Contemplate the Biblical Story that you have selected:
Read the text slowly and carefully; recall what it is about; then let it come alive for you!
Place yourself inside the story, using your imagination; become one of the characters in the scene.
Participate in the dynamics of the scene, dialoguing & interacting with Jesus and other characters.
Observe what is going on around you in the scene: What do you see, hear, feel, smell, taste, touch?
Dialogue with the other characters: What do they say or ask you? What do you say or ask them in reply?
Notice what is going on inside you as you pray: joy, sorrow, peace, confusion, love, anger, etc.
If you get distracted or your mind wanders, gently return to the biblical text and re-enter the scene.
Colloquy: enter into a short personal conversation with Jesus (or God the Father, or the Holy Spirit); speak heart-to-heart, as if conversing with a close friend.
Closing Prayer: conclude by praying the Our Father, Hail Mary, or another familiar/favorite prayer;
you might stand, kneel, bow, raise your hands, or adopt another posture to mark the end of your prayer.

Methods of Praying with the Scriptures

It's kind of hard to put yourself in the Gospel as Mary Queen of Heaven when that image is not presented in the Gospel. I did not develop my image of Mary because of some "political agenda." This is what I actually see when I put myself in Mary's place in the Gospels.

I do believe (along with many, many others) that there is an awful lot of 'social engineering' in contemporary Mariology--but that's not MY political agenda. It's just a political agenda I choose to ignore.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So you dont like a humble Mary - a serving and kind woman?

Those are - on the other hand - the appealing qualities that God looks for in all humans.
It's called virtue.

And Jesus was also a serving King - who rendered Himself 'helpless' in the hands of man to die a suffering and humiliating death.

Humility - humbleness - quiet piety - kindness - gentleness are all the words i would describe Jesus and Mary. Virtues i wish i had.

 

[Michie]

Fantine-

But it does not appear from what you usually say that is what you are doing. It is one thing to put yourself in real situation from Scripture & another to make your own characters. If I misunderstood you then I apologize but calling Mary a bit player tends to leave one with that impression. Scripture does anything but turn Mary into a bit player.

 

[Elysium]

no when someone wants woment o be humble thats not piety thats subjugation
men can be humble
but if women do that they are doormats

im joking around

but its a thin line
its rare to see a man encouraged to be humble and docile and serving
but its like everyone expects that of a woman
and if she has some sort of strong personality or ambition
even if she uses it to help others for some reason shes bad or something

 

[Michie]

no when someone wants woment o be humble thats not piety thats subjugation
men can be humble
but if women do that they are doormats

im joking around

but its a thin line
its rare to see a man encouraged to be humble and docile and serving
but its like everyone expects that of a woman
and if she has some sort of strong personality or ambition
even if she uses it to help others for some reason shes bad or something

Are we still talking about Mary?

Are we still talking about Christianity?

Because encouraging male & females to be humble, etc. is encouraged 24-7.

 

[Fantine]

The references to Mary in the Gospels are scant.

MARY, Mother of Jesus in the Gospels

Because many of the mysteries of the Rosary are based on events in Mary's life--particularly in the Joyful mysteries--it might seem to people who pray the Rosary frequently that Mary is a central figure in scripture.

Instead, she is scarcely mentioned in Mark at all, only twice in John, and not much more in Matthew and Luke.

Of course we need to use our imaginations to learn about Mary.

 

[Chany]

The references to Mary in the Gospels are scant.

MARY, Mother of Jesus in the Gospels

Because many of the mysteries of the Rosary are based on events in Mary's life--particularly in the Joyful mysteries--it might seem to people who pray the Rosary frequently that Mary is a central figure in scripture.

Instead, she is scarcely mentioned in Mark at all, only twice in John, and not much more in Matthew and Luke.

Of course we need to use our imaginations to learn about Mary.

How about Joseph? And, I don't mean to be a bad Christian, but I can't name most of the Twelve Apostles.

 

[Michie]

The references to Mary in the Gospels are scant.

MARY, Mother of Jesus in the Gospels

Because many of the mysteries of the Rosary are based on events in Mary's life--particularly in the Joyful mysteries--it might seem to people who pray the Rosary frequently that Mary is a central figure in scripture.

Instead, she is scarcely mentioned in Mark at all, only twice in John, and not much more in Matthew and Luke.

Of course we need to use our imaginations to learn about Mary.

You can only use it as far as what is written. I doubt she was a bra burning feminist looking for recognition. She knew her vocation & kept mysteries in her heart.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Does she need to be mentioned to be a key figure?
No.

What has been written is quite profound. The grace God bestowed on her was past, present and future - and there being only one other with that quality - Jesus. IE - sinless...due to her Son.

Her saying 'yes' to God was the reason behind Jesus saying 'Blessed is she who does the will of My Father - rather than because she gave birth to Me.'
He was explaining the perspective of why Mary is Blessed.
Which BTW - Blessed means venerated.

Mary said:

"My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors."
Luke 1

 

[Fantine]

You can only use it as far as what is written. I doubt she was a bra burning feminist looking for recognition. She knew her vocation & kept mysteries in her heart.

When you put yourself into the scene you put yourself into the scene. But to say that Mary is tough, and determined, and heroic, and strong is not to say that she is a bra-burning feminist.

And I agree that she knew her vocation, and she would probably be very surprised to see how Church history has tried to depict it. To survive in poverty in an occupied country, to flee that country and become a refugee in order to save your child, to raise a difficult, challenging child whom you knew would have a difficult life, to know from the prophecies what his end would be, to see him running on a collision course towards that premature end to his life--we're not talking about the Botticelli Madonna here, the docile and romanticized figure we are often presented with.

Just because the writers of the Gospel kept us in the dark about her thoughts and feelings doesn't mean she kept them in her heart. From her visit with Elizabeth during their pregnancies, it is obvious that family and community were important to her.

The sisterhood of women would have been very important indeed to a young widow with a nomadic Son who would never have a wife or a family or give her grandchildren. I am sure she would have confided in them quite a bit---not that the gospel writers paid it much mind.

 

[Michie]

Does she need to be mentioned to be a key figure?
No.

What has been written is quite profound. The grace God bestowed on her was past, present and future - and there being only one other with that quality - Jesus. IE - sinless...due to her Son.

Her saying 'yes' to God was the reason behind Jesus saying 'Blessed is she who does the will of My Father - rather than because she gave birth to Me.'
He was explaining the perspective of why Mary is Blessed.
Which BTW - Blessed means venerated.

Mary said:

"My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors."
Luke 1

Yeah but it does not sound like she was looking for publicity or more print in Scripture. She was called by God to bring Jesus into the world. Look at the history of Israel & the coming Messiah. She knew that people who accepted Him would call her blessed. Jewish society called the average woman that bore many children blessed. How much more than the woman chosen to bring the Son of God into the world for the salvation of those that accepted His gift? That did not imply we were cheated out of the history of Mary. Her vocation was enough. Her Son was enough.