Who to vote for?

If democracy goes down so does the Republic for which it stands for.

Vote for the most pro-life candidate because God hates the shedding of innocent blood (Prov.6:17).
Vote for the most pro-Israel candidate, because God blesses those who blesses Israel and curses those who don't (Gen.12:3).

GuardianShua said:

That is not correct. America is a Republic with a Democratic process. There are also laws in place that can suspend the democracy.

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That is not correct, as it concerns the concept of a Democratic Republic and what the U.S was founded on. To claim it is a Democracy is Mob Rule and that was never the case or intention of the Founding Fathers. It's why there were representatives for the people.

Again, we are a democratic republic - we do vote. Either we believe that is important, and voting is an important part of our heritage, or we don't. We elect people to represent us - it is a representative democracy, a Republic. If we are not fully informed, nor interact with our legislators and hold them accountable (ie just vote the party line), then we are not even a representative democracy.


Granted, there are others who'd say America is a Constitutional Republic---and even wit that comes the reality of how the Constitution has been under change at many points in history when it comes to application. Additionally, many have noted that the term "Republic" isn't really accurate when seeing the ways that many of the freedoms made available weren't given to other groups and other groups were selectively avoided in being represented throughout history. This goes back to the isuse of how plutocracy is often what defines things and has been in place for a long time. The same goes for the reality of how people in the government can be bought off/no longer represent the people. Many feel this is exactly what has been occurring in this election when considering how much those who are the super rich have been those who represent folks.

Corporate capitalism is something that influences our government on so many levels and there's substantial danger in the amount of power and influence corporations and large business interest groups have over government policy, including the policies of regulatory agencies and influencing political campaigns..and many social scientists have criticized corporations for failing to act in the interests of the people, and their existence seems to circumvent the principles of democracy, which assumes equal power relations between individuals in a society. There are people in that system who've have worked with the President as well, alongside working with Romney as well ( here/here )--and as said before, Romney and Obama often have supported the same types of plans economically/both support corporatism in numerous ways. When you compare side by side the words and political stances of Republican and Democratic presidential candidates Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama (i.e. universal health care, gun rights, energy, NDAA, the Patriot Act, Iran, sanctions, economic stimulus. bank and auto bailouts, civil rights, TARP, the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, campaign donations, and more), they're virtually the same at every point. That is something I don't know how anyone could avoid easily...

Thus, as many wisely noted, Democray is often taken over in subtle ways with the language of democracy being what remains

visionary said:

Vote for the most pro-life candidate because God hates the shedding of innocent blood (Prov.6:17).
Vote for the most pro-Israel candidate, because God blesses those who blesses Israel and curses those who don't (Gen.12:3).

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That'd place both of the main cannidates on the same level in a myriad of ways.

GuardianShua said:

I think your pic is a fake. It is two white guys saying they are Hamas. It is not logical for Hamas to prefer Romney for president.

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Obama did, famously, slip up as a Senator when he was being interviewed and spoke of his Muslim faith...he corrected himself to refer to his Christian faith when the interviewer questioned what he had said. How many Christians confuse their faith as being Muslim? So who knows?

You either get a Muslim who prefers to be a Christian or a Christian who gets confused and thinks he's a Muslim, or a Mormon.

GuardianShua said:

I think your pic is a fake. It is two white guys saying they are Hamas. It is not logical for Hamas to prefer Romney for president.

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I agree, as the pic didn't seem authentic nor would they be involved in the political process to begin with.

GuardianShua said:

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Obama is a Muslim who professes Christ. He is what these days is called a Muslim Christian.

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Technically, the better terminology would be a Muslim Background Believer (MBB) or Christian who comes from a Muslim background or were surrounded by Muslim influences. And many have noted where numerous Muslims point out he'd be an inconsistent Muslim if he was one secretly (as goes the claims) since the man drinks beer and eats pork alongside a number of other things---whereas what he does as a Christian is more consistent (more discussed here in #1#4, #61 ,#64, #70 #76 and #100 ). He went to Catholic school where Muslims were also present in the classroom and saw others growing up who were Muslim---alongside having a father who was also a Muslim---but he identified more so with the Christian ideal and what his mother was for.

With the interview where many tend to focus in on the brief clip of him saying "My Muslim faith" and correcting himself, the full context of that makes a difference. It's clear in the full context of the interview that he's giving the McCain campaign credit for not participating in spreading the rumor that he is a Muslim. He was never saying he is a Muslim. Stephanopoulos, trying to be helpful, actually muddled it up, making it look as if the real truth had slipped out and Obama had better quickly correct it. But it's clear that Obama was just speaking in an awkwardly elliptical way, saying "my Muslim faith" to mean the false assertion that I am a Muslim. Snoopes did an excellent job of addressing that....and in light of the multiple interviews publically where he has noted he/his family are Christians and that Christ is the way to salvation, I think it'd be reasonable to go with that rather than assuming there's a conspiracy of him trying to hide anything.

It is fairly well -known that Obama attends a "Christian" church and is within that camp, even if the church views he supports are more liberal than most--and for more, one can go here, and here at Obama Is Not a Muslim | Christianity Today | A Magazine of .

Obama claims to believe in CHristianity and has recieved encouragement/council from other Christians (i.e. Rick Warren, T.D Jakes, Jim Wallis, Joshua DuBois, Joel Hunter, etc) that he looks to as mentors for many of the things he does...them being apart of his spiritual advisory council.


Not surprising that Obama has worked with Jakes Not so long ago, he led an early morning prayer service for President Barack Obama at St. John’s Church in Washington, D.C. – not a new role for him as he has advised other presidents as well. In his book Decision Points, George W. Bush described Jakes as “a kind of man who puts faith into action.” With Obama, He has claimed Christ--yet in many ways, what he does is not consistent with Christ....



President Obama has shared multiple times where he claims to be a Christian rather than for other religions (even though he also made known where he respects other religions/appreciates them in their contributions.....his views being more so an Inclusivist viewpoint that acknowledges common grace in other camps). People have often tried the claim "He's Muslim!!!" due to his father's background and his comments on honoring Muslims, depsite the fact that believers in the OT did the same thing when it other cultures and he has made clear that finding things within other religions that are respectable doesn't mean he thinks it's greater than Christ---and doing no different than others did in the scriptures( Genesis 18:1-3, Genesis 23:6-13 Genesis 33:2-4 Genesis 48:11-13 , Exodus 18:6-8 , etc). And as even even seen recently at the National Prayer Breakfast (seen here, here, here , here , here and here / here) where he continually pointed to Christ as being Lord/Savior of all and the one to look to, I was reminded of the folllowing:
Obvious is the fact that people with the spirit of God don't always make the best choices and anyone reading through the books of I-II Kings (i.e. King Asa, King Uzziah, Solomon, etc) and other texts of scripture sees the same principle in action....but declaring Christ as Lord is plainly something one says by the inspiration of the Spirit. The same is possible, IMHO, with President Obama. Multiple times he has surrounded himself as Christians as the people he seeks council from and has noted his development of faith in Christ long before he was president. Obama's Call to Renewal speech on faith and politics from 2006 (which made others on the Left feel their feathers ruffle ) is something that caught the attention of many way before the 2008 election...with it being pointed out often by Joshua Debois, who is head of White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships — including economic recovery and poverty reduction, abortion reduction, responsible fatherhood, and global interfaith dialogue.


For others, it seems to be the case that man is a highly decieved/apostate Christian worthy of the treatment in Jude 1:23 which gives caution for how to help certain people decieved (and I support that one for the most part)--whereas others believe he's a Christian who is still maturing since he didn't have a lot of knowledge before hand (as noted by Christianity Today here), with a tendency to often make very BAD alliances while also doing a lot of righteous things (similar to the many kings in II Chronicles with Judah who often were noting for loving the Lord at many points except in certain areas-----King Jehoshaphat being a great example when seeing his life in action, the ways he sought to bring reform and yet was known for often joining up with the wrong leaders in Israel- II Chronicles 17-20 ). Others say that he's one who believes himself to be a "Christian" when not really understanding what it means to be one...........

Regardless of the differing stances others have on him, what is clear is that Muslims do not see the President as a Muslim.

If other Muslims consider Obama to not be "Muslim", its interesting when others say that he is...

Where he stands is belief in Christ as the Savior and being a Christian and yet appreciating aspects of differing religions/cultures (i.e. an inclusivist), while also not feeling the need to villify all things Muslim due to the areas he grew up in within the Pacific-Rim (as Christianity exists alongside Islam in significant ways, with the largest Muslim population being present there and yet many taken aback at the levels others choose to coexist alongside each other). And in regards to the Christianity of the president, it's definately a Progressive/Liberal Christianity that he advocates and has noted to support---with his background in social justice making a difference when he was in Chicago and experiencing black liberation theology on Christ.

GuardianShua said:

Romney has no plans for doing anything different in regards to those matters.

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Indeed.

GuardianShua said:

It is not logical for Hamas to prefer Romney for president.

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I do find it interesting seeing how many have noted that it's rather bizzare for others claiming that the president is secretly Muslim since it's a confusal of terminology/concept----and yet for those same people who are adamant on claiming the president is secretly a Muslim and not a Christian, they don't realize where their definitions are off----and they're willing to change the terms for other things, such as saying that someone is suddenly a "Christian" like Romney even though Christianity has historically never considered Mormonism to be in the same category/equal (more discussed here in #33 )----until it became apparent that Romney was going to be the representative of the party they favored.

In example, sadly, due to the ways things are politically at the moment and how much of faith is tied to the parties one's for, it seems people in the world of Evangelical Christianity were seeking to get heros of their camp to show support for Romney....with Billy Graham being the biggest example. Graham is seen more as a lightning rod to rally people rather than a consistent standard of truth....and recent events have given another reason to run away as fast as possible from the evangelistic association that utilized him since it seems they stand for nothing and will fall for everything

• America – The Modern Golden Calf
• The National Memo » Mitt Romney's Last Hope: Evangelicals
• SBC's Richard Land: Romney Not a Christian, Compares
• Southern Baptist Leader: Evangelicals Unlikely to Vote for Romney ...
• Mitt Romney and Evangelical Voters: An Arranged Marriage | PBS
• Any Christian Supporting Romney Is a 'Modern Day Judas,' Says ...
• Lies Being Promoted For Political Gain by The Conservatives. They
• Daily Kos: What the Christians won't say: Mitt Romney is an Anti-Christ
• Billy Graham website admits scrubbing ‘Mormons’ from ‘cult’ list after endorsing Romney | The Raw Story

For others, it seems that the stance that Graham has held is not a really new one since he has said similar over the years when it came to noting that Mormons could be saved as well as Buddists and other groups....although that's a bit different from what he said years ago when comparining what his son/others are doing in saying that Mormonism is not a cult.

The older view was focused on how others can be saved in regards to God's mercy, whereas the new one put up says that others can believe whatever they want when it comes to Jesus and it's all good even when they're told about it----thus leading to why many took issue with Franklin when it came to noting publically what Mormonism advocates and yet changing the status from cult to what mainstream Christianity is about....and it's FAR from Christian.

What is the attitude?? ..Valerie Jarret – “After We Win This Election, It’s Our Turn. Payback Time.” (WSI) - The Ulsterman Report

There is no point me quoting posts - they are too long for that; like topsy, they've 'growed'. My comment about Obama being a Muslim was not from anything secret, nor in relation to supposed genealogical links or from anyone other than him! It was his own first choice of words in a televised program. He only changed it to Christian when the interviewer questioned his comment about his Muslim faith and he fumbled out about his Christian faith. Had the interviewer NOT raised the issue it would have stayed on record that Obama clearly claimed a Muslim faith for the things he did, regardless of what his lifestyle may suggest. The fact remains that, in direct response to the interviewer's question, the first thought in Obama's mind was clearly that he had a Muslim faith. There is no secrecy about all this - they were his own words and they are on record as such.

Now I know how to put all these big things up as posts - the youtube link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdkqfBICw

Avodat said:

There is no point me quoting posts - they are too long for that; like topsy, they've 'growed'. My comment about Obama being a Muslim was not from anything secret, nor in relation to supposed genealogical links or from anyone other than him! It was his own first choice of words in a televised program. He only changed it to Christian when the interviewer questioned his comment about his Muslim faith and he fumbled out about his Christian faith. Had the interviewer NOT raised the issue it would have stayed on record that Obama clearly claimed a Muslim faith for the things he did,

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Not really certain as to why you seem to think that anything noted was directed at you in paticular. There was reference to other discussion where the same things have come up---so not really certain as to why there seems to be focus as if anyone was targeting you...or getting (as it appears) snippy on disagreement. Post aren't too long to quote as others have quoted them (although it's inconsequential on the main issue anyhow)---and if anything has grown, it is the rate at inaccuracy that often seems to come up for the sake of disagreeing with anything the president does and supports.

That said, the issue is a long-standing one that has been brought up before....and on the issue, there've been presidents who also made mistakes in speech multiple times, from Bush to Clinton to Lincoln---but they all self-corrected and what was noted was seen in the full context of all they noted additionally. If the Bible commands others not to slander anyone (Titus 3) and to have comments in context, that means that all--regardless of who they are--deserve to have what they say addressed in relation to what they have done in general. One doesn't assume (for example) that a clip where President Bush says Muslims will go to Heaven is to mean that he is suddenly Muslim or a Universalist thinking all worship the same....for that'd be disingenious when it comes to basic research/review on his overall stances and policies.

The same goes for a president making a mistatement on the name of an area and others assuming he overall doesn't know locations in any place...and likewise, a clip of the president saying "My Muslim faith" and self-correcting doesn't mean that he has always claimed to be Muslim/somehow slipped up in admitting it or that he doesn't have a track record of proclaiming Christ as the way to salvation. There's context-----and he also made clear where Mccain was not spreading the rumor that he had a Muslim faith. Context must always be considered...and it's not established by a 12 sec video clip where the president self-corrected when in conversation.

Just clarifying what I said as I didn't want anyone to think I was relying on unreliable secret chitter chatter from the internet!

I don't think any other Presidential gaffs were about something as personal as which G_d they follow. To liken Obama's 'gaff' to Bush et al is not to compare like with like by any strtetch of the imagination. Obama is far too polished in his presentations to make Bush-like errors in any case.