Lesbian Awarded Money from Sept. 11 Victims Fund

Originally posted by websitejack
Jerry,

So if I believe that homosexual behavior is harmful, that make me bad?

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Not necessarily.  But if you do---and you appear to be asking for an honest assessment, it would appear to make you mean and ignorant.

Families of active duty military face considerable difficulties---the late and overninght duties, rigorous training, deployments to foreign countries, low pay, living in cheap housing, alcohol abuse, poor medical care, intense pressure at work, risk of loss of life for the military member in battle.  So would you tell a young family where the husband or the wife or both is contemplating military service that it is "harmful"?  Some would, but if you wouldn't, but would tell homos we're "harmful", then you are hypocritical. 

Originally posted by websitejack
Jerry,

So if I believe that homosexual behavior is harmful, that make me bad?

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Nope, reckon it just makes you wrong. But, unless you are homosexual yourself, it should have little impact on your life to be wrong about that. Just don't try to manage other people's lives on the basis of your mistaken ideas & we can all be happy.

 

Originally posted by websitejack
Without going into graphic details...the act of sodomy is not a healthy practice.

Pointing that out does not a Hitler make.

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"Sodomy" is a word of varied meanings but I assume here you mean anal intercourse, no?  If not please correct me.

It appears you are assuming all gay men do this often.  It is true in general genital intercourse is safer in terms of infection.  However it is not always dangerous when care and gentleness are used.

You may be unaware that heterosexuals and lesbians have anal intercourse as well.  For a good read on the topic see A woman's Guide to Anal Sex by Tristan Taormino.  It's available from Good Vibrations.

Now, if you aren't going to also warn het boys and girls about the danger of coming in the back door, though, you are hypocritical.

Originally posted by websitejack
Without going into graphic details...the act of sodomy is not a healthy practice.

Pointing that out does not a Hitler make.

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Homosexuality is not equivalent to sodomy. Not all homosexual relationships are based upon sodomy either.

Furthermore, sodomy is also a heterosexual practice as it includes oral and anal sex. Evidently sodomy occurs between heterosexual couples in much larger numbers, but I don't hear you condemning heterosexual relationships because a proportion of heterosexuals commit sodomy as you are doing for homosexuals.

Originally posted by Texas Lynn
I can only speak for myself, not other queers.  I've been 'married' in a ceremony though not legal and it included three Christian clergy, Bible reading, and religious music.  We try to be loving and kind to one another and the children and to grow in faith.  I certainly see no conflict whatsoever in loving my wife, including going downtown, and being a good Christian.

Both heterosexual and homosexual families have problems with promiscuity, substance abuse, and DV.  Those are separate issues from what sexual orientation a person is.

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Texas Lynn,

Promiscuity, substance abuse, and DV are "blind" when it comes to who they will affect. I agree with you completely.

Almost every heterosexual person I know was married in a ceremony with Christian clergy, Bible reading and religious music.

But they are not Christian.

They neither acknowledge Jesus as their Lord or ever care about him. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian, having Christian parents doesn't do it.

On the same note, being gay doesn't make you not Christian.

It comes down to Jesus Christ, his claims, and wether we will submit to his Lordship in our lives.

The rest is trying to walk that out in our lives. Love and obedience. Not one without the other.

Jack

Originally posted by websitejack
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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I have a bumpersticker I got from www.northernsun.com that says "If going to church makes you a Christian, does going to the garage make you a car?"

"being gay doesn't make you not Christian."

I totally agree, but if you don't think its wrong, I do think you need to re-evaluate some things. the bible is pretty clear on the issue, its only recently that people want to muddy the waters to indulge their own desires.

I've yet to see a single Bible passage which says that *being* gay is a sin. Ideally...

Marriage is not about tax breaks.

Marriage is not about gov't benefits.

Marriage is not about sex.

Marriage *is* about a long-term committed relationship.

Nowhere in "long-term committed relationship" is "man-woman only" even implied. If you hate the idea of a homosexual marriage then at least create an equivalent institution for homosexuals.

I find it very amusing that "facts" are brought up in this debate. It isn't about facts. It's about people who can't find a reason to hate gays, and people who will use any excuse.

"*being* gay is a sin."

Romans chapter 1.

"Nowhere in "long-term committed relationship" is "man-woman only" even implied."

Sure it is, read the bible...

Let's try to stick to the original topic and not start yet another argument/discussion about whether or not the Bible condemns homosexuality.

Even if I did think the Bible condemned homosexuality, I still would not be in support of a law against it.

I definitely think the Bible says you should be Christian, but I don't think it should be illegal to be another religion. Perhaps God's law should be Man's law, but I don't see anywhere that Jesus indicated governments should force their citizens to be Christian.

-Chris

"I still would not be in support of a law against it."

I agree, but I won't support a law giving it special rights either Again, I don't see a roomate being helped...?

Originally posted by Outspoken
"*being* gay is a sin."

Romans chapter 1.

"Nowhere in "long-term committed relationship" is "man-woman only" even implied."

Sure it is, read the bible...

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Nope. 1) Lust != Love Acts != Emotions

2) I said "long-term committed relationship", not "marriage". Where do you see 'heterosexual' in the three words?

Ok, to the topic:

It's not my place to condemn others' relationships *unless* I can see injury involved, and I will *not* make sweeping generalizations about what 3% gives as 180,000,000+ people. If you can't say that *every* homosexual relationship is harmful, including the ones professed by strangely normal (however does that happen) members of CF, and that people who are perfectly happy and in love with a partner, who believe strongly in Christ and who care more about the message of the Bible than the phrasing are somehow evil, joyous sinners, then you have no right to say that all homosexual relationships are somehow harmful to the participants. If no harm is done, how can it be wrong?

Originally posted by Outspoken
Again, I don't see a roomate being helped...?

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There are common law marriages.

A roommate lacks the deep emotional attachment that a married heterosexual couple or homosexual couple has.

-Chris

"Nope."

Yup. Homosexuality is wrong period. Lustful or not.

"It's not my place to condemn others' relationships *unless* I can see injury involved,"

Okay, then you're not against a lot of sexual perversions then because a ton of them don't cause injury to humans at all.

"If no harm is done, how can it be wrong?"

Well acceptance of sin leads to the degradation of biblical morals. As far as the isolationist policy you're adpoting, this again accepts lots of things even our laws deem wrong.

Originally posted by Outspoken
"I still would not be in support of a law against it."

I agree, but I won't support a law giving it special rights either Again, I don't see a roomate being helped...?

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The reason the "roommate" issue crops up is because there is no legal institution (in most places) which allows homosexuals to become anything more than roommates before the law. Homosexual relationships are no more automatically bad than heterosexual relationships are automatically good. Basing it on something as trivial as sexual orientation rather than, say, whether or not one of the people involved is a convicted felon, or for those of you who abhor other 'unnatural' behaviour, a practicing sadist, or a drug dealer, or a suicide cultist, is ridiculous. Yet sexuality is *THE* divider. Transsexuals can marry as long as it's to a person whose gender opposes their chromosomes if not their organs, and I'd be willing to bet that careful omission of such details would work in cases where it doesn't. Changing something that God supposedly gave you, this drastically, and still being able to marry seems a much bigger 'moral' issue than homosexuality.

I have to admit, I'm not particularly opposed to a lot of things that are considered pervisions by some other people. For instance, sex with a woman who had her period within the last week, making out before having sex... Lots of things that some people say are "perversions".

"because there is no legal institution (in most places) which allows homosexuals to become anything more than roommates before the law."

Good, then we should treat roomates accordingly.

"Lots of things that some people say are "perversions"."

Seebs I was speaking of the stronger ones that I won't mention here because of the obvious nature of them, but they clearly don't "hurt" anyone, so they should also have legal status as "special cases" and get tax breaks, etc...

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Nope."

Yup. Homosexuality is wrong period. Lustful or not.

"It's not my place to condemn others' relationships *unless* I can see injury involved,"

Okay, then you're not against a lot of sexual perversions then because a ton of them don't cause injury to humans at all.

"If no harm is done, how can it be wrong?"

Well acceptance of sin leads to the degradation of biblical morals. As far as the isolationist policy you're adpoting, this again accepts lots of things even our laws deem wrong.

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All right, Jesus loves the little children, except those who are homosexual, whom He cheerfully sends to Hell.

Isolationism? Well, do I see injury? Perhaps I should include consent in that as well. I don't believe there is an absolute answer for the morality of any generic act, the situation makes it moral or immoral. So yes, I will take a stand for consent and harmlessness. (Note: In general for harm. People can be injured doing many mundane things. Banning cars because of fatal collisions isn't an option, though. Banning sex because of AIDS - same idea.)

Biblical morals? Great for a Christian. Not for a country. Look at some Middle Eastern countries ruled by religion. Not a pretty sight, is it? If it all boils down to Biblical morals then you cannot, in a secular country, enforce those morals on others.

In the meantime, I propose that gays and lesbians unite and fill in the marriage forms for each other, providing two legal marriages and two completely different moral marriages. I'm sure sufficient legalese can avoid complications.

Originally posted by Outspoken
"because there is no legal institution (in most places) which allows homosexuals to become anything more than roommates before the law."

Good, then we should treat roomates accordingly.

"Lots of things that some people say are "perversions"."

Seebs I was speaking of the stronger ones that I won't mention here because of the obvious nature of them, but they clearly don't "hurt" anyone, so they should also have legal status as "special cases" and get tax breaks, etc...

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sigh

The law is the problem, not the solution. If one was created then homosexual relationships would be legally different from room-sharing relationships, and we would be able to sort it out much easier.

For hurting people: Well, if it doesn't, then what's wrong with it? God doesn't like things... that don't do any harm. Hmm. If He can't provide a justification for His dislike of innocuous practices or feelings then He is no authority at all.

"All right, Jesus loves the little children, except those who are homosexual, whom He cheerfully sends to Hell."

/me gives Tenek the words he shoved into my mouth.

He hates their sin, but loves them. Big difference. If you want to commit the fallacy and line someone and their sin, that's your problem, not mine

"I don't believe there is an absolute answer for the morality of any generic act, the situation makes it moral or immoral. "

Ahh..subjective morality...what a crock LOL.

"Biblical morals? Great for a Christian. Not for a country. "

I disagree. The middle east religion is one that emphasises working to get to allah. christians don have that problem, God worked to get to us That's why christianity is the ONLY relgions that is truely different. God helped us up, not we try to get up and God is waiting.


"enforce those morals on others."

I disagree, but if you're talking legality then I also disagree. If 99% of this country were to say, nope heterosexual marrage shouldn't have this special, then it wouldn't. As a christian I think homosexual marrages are morally wrong, and I will continue to vote that way. as I would for any other polical issue.