Israel

KJV1611Warrior · Nov 2, 2012

The only way to rightly divide eschatological truths is by noting the distinction between Israel and the Church. A failure to do so has already produced the dark ages where scripture was withheld from the masses. The result was replacement theology and amillennialism which was prevalent in Roman Catholicism.

Rome taught a false gospel of works. They taught that Israel forfeited her covenants and the Vatican was now the recipient of those covenants. Rome, as a result, proceeded to establish a world wide rule.

Thanks to men like John Frith and William Tyndale, the road was paved for the word of God in english to be available to all men. As a result of recovering from the tyranny of Rome, through the plain, unveiled reading of scripture, doctrines such as premillennialism, dispensationalism, and pretribulationalism emerged in addition to the freedom of salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone who bore our sin in His own body, shed His blood, and provided atonement through His sacrifice that all who believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Origen, Augustine, and Eusebius allegorized the text, corrupted the manuscripts, and paved the way to the dark ages. The lineage of heresy, corruption, and the "Holy Roman Empire" came through Alexandria, Egypt.

Freedom and truth came through Antioch and ultimately Tyndale and the King James translators of the inspired, preserved word of God. Those words are they which recovered the gospel, and correctly drew the distinction between Israel and the church!

Maranatha

daq · Nov 2, 2012

KJV1611Warrior said:
The only way to rightly divide eschatological truths is by noting the distinction between Israel and the Church. A failure to do so has already produced the dark ages where scripture was withheld from the masses. The result was replacement theology and amillennialism which was prevalent in Roman Catholicism.

Rome taught a false gospel of works. They taught that Israel forfeited her covenants and the Vatican was now the recipient of those covenants. Rome, as a result, proceeded to establish a world wide rule.

Thanks to men like John Frith and William Tyndale, the road was paved for the word of God in english to be available to all men. As a result of recovering from the tyranny of Rome, through the plain, unveiled reading of scripture, doctrines such as premillennialism, dispensationalism, and pretribulationalism emerged in addition to the freedom of salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone who bore our sin in His own body, shed His blood, and provided atonement through His sacrifice that all who believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Origen, Augustine, and Eusebius allegorized the text, corrupted the manuscripts, and paved the way to the dark ages. The lineage of heresy, corruption, and the "Holy Roman Empire" came through Alexandria, Egypt.

Freedom and truth came through Antioch and ultimately Tyndale and the King James translators of the inspired, preserved word of God. Those words are they which recovered the gospel, and correctly drew the distinction between Israel and the church!

Maranatha

Matthew 15:21-28 KJV
21. And Jesus went out thence, and withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon.
22. And behold, a Canaanitish woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. But she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. And he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.
27. But she said, Yea, Lord: for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it done unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was healed from that hour.

1) Yeshua was in the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, not ''Israel'' proper.
2) The woman was a Canaanitish or heathen.
3) Worship was neither the desired outcome nor the point.
4) Repentance, Submission, and CHANGE OF MINDSET was necessary.
5) The woman was grafted into the house of Israel BY FAITH.
6) The woman was ''no more a Canaanite'' in the house of YHWH Sabaoth, (Zechariah 14:21).

The Master clearly and emphatically states:

''I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'' ...

Please show where this statement is rescinded, expounded, or altered?

KJV1611Warrior · Nov 2, 2012

The heathen (gentiles) were grafted in, however, when the fulness of the gentiles be come in, the blindness of Israel will be lifted. The first (Israel) shall be last, but the last (gentiles) shall be first. A very clear distinction is made.

daq · Nov 2, 2012

KJV1611Warrior said:
The heathen (gentiles) were grafted in, however, when the fulness of the gentiles be come in, the blindness of Israel will be lifted. The first (Israel) shall be last, but the last (gentiles) shall be first. A very clear distinction is made.

If you are going to accuse people of ''replacement theology'' then you need to give an answer to the question which was posed to you above. If you do not have an answer then you have no clue what you speak of and rather prefer to employ unfounded accusations to force others into compliance with your own imaginative mindset. It is similar to crying ''racism'' so that others will not oppose one's political doctrines. As for your statement herein then how do you know when and where to understand ''ethnos'' as either gentile, nation, or HEATHEN? And it is not the Jews whom Paul says are partially blinded but rather Israel which suffers from a partial hardness of heart or blindness. Therefore when the fullness of the HEATHEN has entered into the man, (each in his appointed times for none shall be alone in his appointed times) then shall come forth the Redeemer from Zion. Then perhaps you yourself will no longer suffer from ''partial blindness'' and ''shall know as you are known''. By the way that Girgashite man of the Gergesenos with the double legion was the genos-kind of ethnos-heathen for which the Scripture sometimes speaks: SEVEN NATIONS-MOUNTAINS greater and mightier than the children of Israel.

KJV1611Warrior · Nov 2, 2012

Your statement proves the fact that Israel and the church are distinct one from another.
The bible (KJV) says gentile and in the CONTEXT of Romans 11:25, a gentile is a non Jew who believes in the LORD Jesus Christ. The bible preserved in the english language says gentile, NOT ethnos.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

You have not provided a solid argument supported by scripture. Israel is distinct from the church. Actually you sound like a university professor using man's wisdom, which is foolishness unto God, instead of simple faith in God's word. Heb 11:6

Interplanner · Nov 2, 2012

To KJV,
There are several historical problems with your treatment.

Re: "the dark ages" the first two sentences have no necessary connection. I would encourage you to review what I have laid about about "immediately after" the destruction of Jerusalem in other posts. Shouldn't be hard to find. Essentials:

*the end of history was expected but did not happen
*without Jerusalem as a center, more and more early leaders were either at Damascus or Alexandria, and in the north they tended to continue on in the Gentile world (without much concern about Israel's next role) while in the south they wished to determine whether Israel had a future role. the Letter of Barnabas illustrates the north.
*it was a perplexing time, but 2 Pet 3 answers the obvious question of why the final coming had not yet happened, as well as what to expect. It depressurizes the situation.
*Both beliefs had followings but both were merely the attempts of mortal men to try to figure out the question beyond what 2 Pet 3 had said, which, of course, has no Judaistic details.

re Rome. There are plenty of mistakes in Rome, but "replacement" is a term from Hebrews, and Eph 1-4 cannot be read without realizing there is a community that is not exactly Israel that recieves all promises, citizenship and inheritance of Israel. This document was originally written without a destination (the earliest copies are blank when it comes to "to the church at _____"). It was meant for very wide circulation. There is no allegory here; it is very ordinary communication.

You are quite right to locate allegory in Alexandria but that's where the idea of another external entity called "Israel" came from. In Damascus, where a more ordinary reading of the apostles was continued, there was no attempt to try to find that. No state church seeds. The power of the Christian church was in proclamation of a present kingdom. At least for a while.

re amillenialism. We all need to knock off rust from our communication. Do you mean a denial that a 1000 years is mentioned in Rev, or do you mean amill = a belief that there is a present powerful kingdom. For there is a present powerful kingdom, and the 12 thrones were handed out along with persecutions, but it is not Rome, and a church state was the last thing on Christ's mind.

There is no necessary connection between Rome and either of these, nor does being "literal" about 1000 years solve the mistakes of Rome.

re "works". It's doctrine of works is not as we know it. They never used the term that way; they never thought of it that simply. Instead in the medieval church, there was the doctrine gratia infusa. This meant 'infused grace' which meant that what God regenerates in your life through observances of the sacraments carries you more or less toward his throne when you die. The definite thing was "in your life." Luther realized this location was the mistake, and preached about 'the alien righteousness' and gratia imputa, because the acts of Christ do not replicate in a believer; they are credited to him against his debt of sin. The result was a much less 'sacred' approach to life; too little for some. The odd thing was that Rome did have a doctrine of imputation but it wasn't Christ's righteousness! Christ was a model more than a savior. Rome credited your friend or relative with other saints merits if you purchased an indulgence to help save that friend or relative from punishment after death.

re: dispensationalism, premill, pretrib. You're pretty mistaken about the rise of these or connection to the Reformation. Actually the Reformation had several bouts of state churches; one of them said the millenium was happening in Muenster, Germany, etc., which, by the way, Luther condemned. He hardly touched Rev, as I recall, so again your connections are suspect. Calvin said he didn't know what to make of Rev, but used it for worship.

In the counter Reformation, the Jesuit Ribera was commissioned to write some eschatology that protected the name of the Pope by showing that antichrist was not the Pope. Ribera's futurism is very much what turned into our futurism today: a Jewish antichrist, in Palestine, and a restored temple. But there is scant reference to this until the Darby and Irvingite movement in Scotland in the 1800s; Darby and Scofield were buddies, and Scofield's "Bible" is how dispensationalism really took off in America.

You have correctly stated that Disp'ism's essential tenet is the separation of Israel and the Church. 10,000 feet of concrete. But this misses the NT use of the OT majorly. It comes directly and plainly from the OT, which is where Judaism comes from. As you can see, Paul's official sermon in Acts 13 is not D'ist, and (if we needed it) sets the contrast between the two, which is throughout Acts. The Christian proclamation was that Israel should help in the Christian mission (Rom 9-11); the tragedy was that they would not, and instead gathered to fight a hopeless 'messianic' war because they missed the meaning of Dan. 9's 490 years even though they knew the time was close. Judaism believes the church and Israel are utterly separate, too.

--Inter

KJV1611Warrior · Nov 2, 2012

Here's a wonderful article on topic.

The Gospel Of The Kingdom
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” (Matt. 3:1-2)

Prophecies of a Messianic King appear throughout the Old Testament and many in the Jewish leadership saw John's arrival on the scene as their fulfillment. They sent representatives to the place where John was baptizing to see if he was the promised Messiah. He said he wasn't, but that the one they had been expecting was even then in their midst (John 1:19-28).

750 years earlier Isaiah had said when the Messiah came He would reign on David's throne forever (Isaiah 9:6-7) but the throne of David had been vacant for 600 years. John had come to tell them the time was finally at hand and they had better get ready for Him.

When Jesus began His ministry, John introduced Him as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:8) and publicly testified that Jesus was the Son of God (John 1:34). Right from the beginning Jesus began teaching that the Kingdom of Heaven was near (Matt. 4:17), and sent His disciples through out the land to alert the people to this fact as well (Matt. 10:7-8).

But even with Isaiah's prophecies, John's testimony, and the Lord's teaching, the Jewish leaders refused to accept that Jesus was the Messiah. They questioned His claims, His doctrine, and His miracles in spite of the fact that all were clearly foretold in their prophecies.

Isaiah had also said when He came the Messiah would have no beauty or majesty that would attract them to Him and that nothing about His appearance would make them desire Him (Isaiah 53:2). The fact that Jesus was not like they expected Him to be was a big problem for them.

Just before John was executed, He had sent a delegation of his disciples to confirm for themselves that Jesus was who He claimed to be.

In reply Jesus said, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me.” (Matt. 11:4-6)

Jesus fed the multitudes, walked on water, healed the sick and raised the dead and still they asked for a miraculous sign. Finally in frustration He responded, “A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38-40). They would get their sign, but only after they had executed Him.

Later, just a few days before His execution, He warned them again. “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit (Matt. 21:43). He was speaking of the coming Church.

After the resurrection, having performed the miraculous sign they asked for, Jesus waited 40 days for them to acknowledge it. But upon being informed of the empty tomb the Jewish leaders bribed the soldiers to keep them quiet and refused to recognize the Lord's fulfillment of the sign of Jonah (Matt. 28:11-15).

At the end of the 40 days His disciples asked if He was now going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Jesus said it was not for them to know the times or dates (Acts 1:6-7) and after telling them to wait for the Holy Spirit to appear He ascended into heaven.

Some have criticized His response as being ambivalent, but I disagree. The disciples knew 69 of Daniel's 70 weeks had passed, and there was one week (7 years) left to fulfill. They knew the Messiah had been cut off (put to death) like Daniel had prophesied (Daniel 9:26) and from His teaching they knew why. It was to fulfill three of the six objectives the angel had set forth when he gave Daniel the 70 weeks prophecy over 500 years earlier.

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy”. (Daniel 9:24)

The purpose of the Lord's death was to finish transgression, put an end to sin and atone for wickedness. What was left was to bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up vision and prophecy, and anoint the Most Holy. Bringing in everlasting righteousness is a reference to Isaiah 9:7 which says the Messiah will reign with justice and righteousness forever. Sealing up vision and prophecy means to bring them to their conclusion by fulfilling them. Anointing means to consecrate or sanctify, and the Most Holy probably refers to the Temple.

By telling the disciples it wasn't for them to know the timing of the kingdom's restoration and immediately changing the subject to the coming Holy Spirit, I think the Lord was saying the offer of the kingdom was still on the table, but His focus was about to change. Obviously God knew they had rejected the kingdom at that time, but He was leaving the door open for them to accept it at some point in the future.

This is borne out by a prophecy He spoke through Hosea 750 years earlier.

“Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt. And they will seek my face; in their misery they will earnestly seek me” (Hosea 5:15). Please note the word “until” because it conveys the notion of “not now” rather than “not ever.” The door was still open.

10 days after the Lord's ascension, the Holy Spirit came to the disciples and the Church was born. For about 20 years the Church remained mostly an offshoot of Judaism until James, the Lord's half brother, revealed that the Lord was first going to take from among the Gentiles a people for Himself before moving to restore Israel (Acts 15:13-18). This was a clear promise of a future for Israel.

But shortly after that Israel ceased to exist as a nation and has been absent for most of the past 2000 years while God's focus has been exclusively on the Church. Because of this many scholars began to express doubt that Israel would ever return, even asserting that the Church has replaced Israel in God's plan and all the unfulfilled promises to Israel have been inherited by the Church. As far as they were concerned, there was no longer a reason for Israel to exist.

I've been going to church all my life but I was nearly 50 years old before I realized that the Age of Grace, aka the Church Age, only exists in a parenthesis between Daniel's first 69 weeks and the coming 70th one. It began when the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost after the Lord's Ascension and will end with the Rapture. Once the Church is gone the Lord will turn back to Israel to fulfill Daniel's 70th week and implement the kingdom Daniel prophesied.

“In the time of those kings (the Gentile powers who control the Earth) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever” (Daniel 2:44).

In Daniel's time it was already understood that this kingdom would be headquartered in Israel, but would have authority over all the Earth. Speaking through David, God said, “I have installed my King on Zion, My Holy hill” (Psalm 2:6)

He was referring to His Son, to whom He said, “Ask of Me and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the Earth your possession” (Psalm 2:8).

Those who teach that there's no future for Israel have forgotten that James had foretold of one that would begin after the Lord finished with the Church (Acts 15:13-18). They have also forgotten that Paul confirmed this in Romans 11:25-27. And they've forgotten (or ignored) all the unconditional promises God had made to Israel.

This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name:

“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me” (Jeremiah 31:35-36)

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms” (Ezekiel 37:21-22).

I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the Lord your God (Amos 9:14-5).

There are probably dozens of others, but I'm sure you get the idea. Only by refusing to read these promises as they're written can one deny that they are meant for Israel.

So the offer of a Kingdom to Israel was never rescinded, it was only set aside while the Lord built His Church. Following that, He will turn His attention once again to Israel for the final segment of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy. To say this will be a difficult time would be a gross understatement because Israel has to atone for the sin of rejecting the Lord's earlier offer. Jesus called it the worst time of trouble the world ever has or ever will see (Matt. 24:21) but just as Hosea had prophesied, in their misery they will earnestly seek Him.

“Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence” (Hosea 6:1-2).

God will hear their prayer and pour out His Spirit of grace and supplication, allowing their hearts to be softened and their eyes to be opened to the fact that the one they put to death was their promised Messiah (Zechariah 12:10-14). After a period of intense mourning, they will admit their sin, and the blood guilt that He has not pardoned, He will pardon (Joel 3:21). It's will be national conversion and it will change everything. Remember, it doesn't matter who you are, no one comes to the Father except through Jesus (John 14:6).

Then the Lord will appear over Jerusalem and fight against all the nations of the Earth, who have gathered against His people (Zech. 14:3). He will strike them with a plague that causes their flesh to rot while they're still standing. Their eyes will rot in their sockets and their tongues will rot in their mouths. Those who survive will be stricken with great panic and actually begin attacking each other (Zech. 14:12-13). At the end of the day the victory will belong to the Lord, and He will be King over the whole Earth. There will finally be only one Lord and His name the only name. (Zechariah 14:9).

After that, the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it (Isaiah 2:2).

From all over the world people will say “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.”

The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore (Isaiah 2:3-4).

This will be a time of rejoicing for Israel such as the world has never seen. The creation itself will join in the celebration.

The desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom. Like the crocus, it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the Lord, the splendor of our God (Isaiah 35:1-2).

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands (Isaiah 55:12).

The ransomed of the Lord will return. They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away (Isaiah 35:10).

For this is what the Lord says, I will extend peace to her like a river and the wealth of the nations like a flooding stream. When you see this your heart will rejoice and you will flourish like grass (Isaiah 66:12,14).

The promised kingdom will have come to Israel, and the world will finally be at peace.

Jack Kelly

KJV1611Warrior · Nov 2, 2012

Inter,

We are nearing the last days so we will see what the truth is. My conclusions are based on the plain reading of scripture, not allegories, contrivances, tradition, etc. I don't like being labeled, however, dispensationalism is the only theological system that harmonizes all of scripture and stays Jesus centered all the way through. The whole of scripture is written of Him!

You believe what you will, however, If scripture says to be "looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", then that's what I shall do.

Mt 11:11=distinction. Plain reading.Without faith it is impossible to please God. When you allegorize or explain away scriptures you are lacking faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Daniel read from Jeremiah and took it very literally!

daq · Nov 2, 2012

KJV1611Warrior said:
Your statement proves the fact that Israel and the church are distinct one from another.
The bible (KJV) says gentile and in the CONTEXT of Romans 11:25, a gentile is a non Jew who believes in the LORD Jesus Christ. The bible preserved in the english language says gentile, NOT ethnos.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

You have not provided a solid argument supported by scripture. Israel is distinct from the church. Actually you sound like a university professor using man's wisdom, which is foolishness unto God, instead of simple faith in God's word. Heb 11:6

Your statements reveal that you pick and choose what Scripture passages you want to believe because in the previous chapter, (Romans 10) Paul differentiates between Greeks, (Helenisti) and ethnos-heathen-gentile for this very reason. There is no difference between Jew and GREEK-Hellenisti in the previous chapter of the same discussion. Whether ''ethnos'' is translated gentile, nation, or heathen, is strictly up to interpretation according to context and in this case king James and his court got it wrong. What you are professing, whether you know it or not, is that you believe and trust ''king James and his court'' over and above the context of the Scripture itself which interprets itself. The Scripture was not originally written or given in ''Ye Olde English'' language. In addition your mindset makes the Father out to be a respecter of the persons of men by physical bloodline, physical seedline, and according to race. Therefore the very transgression which you would accuse others of committing you yourself unknowingly commit twofold against the Word. To the New Testament writer your mindset would have been repulsive. The seed lines even from the very beginning are SPIRIT. Do you not notice that Enoch, Lemech, and Enos are found in the ''book of the genealogy of the dead'' (Genesis 4) but then afterwards those three are the only names found again in the Genesis 5 ''Book of Life''? Those three were ''converted'' for men began to herald-call upon the name of the Lord in the days of Enos, (Genesis 4:26). Cain and his spiritual seed line are the names of the twice dead of Jude which are memorialized for all time upon the earth: ''whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world''... Be aware also that Jude states that these men were written of old time toward this destruction: ''the anthropon-man-faced that creep in unawares'' during your love-feasts when you feast upon the Word, like teachers of false doctrines, which entice the believer to fall away from the truth.

LastSeven · Nov 2, 2012

I believe the establishment by the United Nations of that nation in the middle east which we call "Israel" is Satan's great deception. It has done nothing but confuse believers about the sacred name "Israel" which is given to the overcomers.

It does not, and never did, refer to an earthly nation. Once you understand that "Israel" means kingdom of God then you start to see things in a very different light and all of a sudden everything begins to make sense.

And just so we're clear, that nation in the middle east is not the kingdom of God.

ebedmelech · Nov 2, 2012

KJV1611Warrior said:
The only way to rightly divide eschatological truths is by noting the distinction between Israel and the Church. A failure to do so has already produced the dark ages where scripture was withheld from the masses. The result was replacement theology and amillennialism which was prevalent in Roman Catholicism.

Rome taught a false gospel of works. They taught that Israel forfeited her covenants and the Vatican was now the recipient of those covenants. Rome, as a result, proceeded to establish a world wide rule.

Thanks to men like John Frith and William Tyndale, the road was paved for the word of God in english to be available to all men. As a result of recovering from the tyranny of Rome, through the plain, unveiled reading of scripture, doctrines such as premillennialism, dispensationalism, and pretribulationalism emerged in addition to the freedom of salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone who bore our sin in His own body, shed His blood, and provided atonement through His sacrifice that all who believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Origen, Augustine, and Eusebius allegorized the text, corrupted the manuscripts, and paved the way to the dark ages. The lineage of heresy, corruption, and the "Holy Roman Empire" came through Alexandria, Egypt.

Freedom and truth came through Antioch and ultimately Tyndale and the King James translators of the inspired, preserved word of God. Those words are they which recovered the gospel, and correctly drew the distinction between Israel and the church!

Maranatha

Please show how Augustine "allegorized" the text!

I'm certain that God makes it pretty plain when He said:

Hosea 2:23:
“I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people!’ And they will say, ‘You are my God!’”

Is Paul wrong in saying this?:
Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

You see...THIS IS WHAT PAUL CALLS THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL!!! He's unpacking it for you...and he even quotes Hosea 2:23 in doing so! Read Romans 9!

Peter also makes the case:
1 Peter 2:9, 10
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Now...you erroneously states Augustine allegorized the text...it seemsto me God is the one doing that through the scriptures!

YOU MUST UNDERSTAND ISRAEL BROKE GOD'S COVENANT!!! God told Moses they would do it:
Deut 31:
16 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’
18 But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods.

God divorced Israel! He will have mercy in the future as Romans 11 says. But the "Israel of God" is no longer a nation but ALL believers!!!

Again Paul makes the case in Galatians 3:26-29:
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

So now...who allegorized what??? Augustine was just reading what is written!!!

Interplanner · Nov 2, 2012

to KJVwarrior, I simply have no idea what is being explained away. By starting from Acts 13s sermon (ie, by taking that as the apostles most succinct statement of which Rom 4-5, Gal 3-4, Eph 2-3, 2 Cor 3-5, Hebrews are longer), I am trying to 'get inside their minds' and explain Scripture from within. I see almost nothing that sounds the same when I go to read Ryrie, MacArthur, Walvoord, Roseberg, Lindsey, LaHaye.

Try another expression or a good example.

Or just write 1 line summaries of the passages just listed.

Have you ever listed out for yourself the several things that are said to be common to Jews and Gentiles in the Gospel in Eph 2-3? They are highly technical terms!

--Inter

Interplanner · Nov 2, 2012

to Ebed,
there is a future mercy to Israel from the lines from Isaiah. The future of Isaiah was everything after the 5th century BC. Rom 9-11's concluding statement about mercy is present tense: 3 times the 'business' of Israel and the nations is said to be concluded now. The prophecy is to be read in its historically fulfilled sense. God wants all men, Jew or Gentile, to be proclaimers of the Gospel of grace.

--Inter

daq · Nov 3, 2012

daq said:
Matthew 1:11-16 KJV
11. And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13. And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14. And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15. And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16. And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

This Jechonias is Jeconiah, who is also Coniah son of Jehoiakim, son of Josiah.

This Coniah:

Jeremiah 22:24-30 KJV
24. As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;
25. And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans.
26. And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die.
27. But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return.
28. Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29. O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord.
30. Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

By this statement alone the seed line of the Matthew chronology must be SPIRIT.

So much for seedlines of the flesh: it is not possible that Yeshua came through the bloodline of Jechoniah-Coniah son of Jehoiakim according to the chronology of Matthew even though Yeshua is in that genealogy. Likewise if he be the Son of David then why does David call him 'Adoni-Master and Lord? And what if he be the very seed of Abraham as the Scripture clearly states?

Galatians 3:14-18 KJV
14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Therefore Yeshua Christou is the seed of FAITH, and the seed of the FAITHFUL who believe the Word of the Father and act upon that belief, which seed is the seed of Abraham, which is the seed of David, which holy seed is SPIRIT. And IF the Law cannot disannul the promise-covenant to Abraham, even though the Law came 430 years after; then neither does the ''New Covenant'' completely disannul the ''Old Covenant'' but rather merely the letter of the law in ordinances which kept out the Gentiles by partitioning wall of separation, (i.e. ''no Canaanites, no Moabites, no Gentiles in the house of YHWH''). Ruth the Moabitess is a perfect example of what was to come; yet she did not graft Boaz into her own Moabite ways but rather FORSOOK her own people and ways and was grafted into Judah. Therefore everything is reversed when we begin to see and walk according to the SPIRIT. Those who claim to be IN CHRIST by default then claim to be ''Jews'' because Yeshua is the Lion of Judah. One will never succeed in grafting the Lion of Judah into himself or herself and making him to be a Gentile. The following is therefore directed to everyone here:

Revelation 3:9 KJV
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Be careful when you claim to be IN CHRIST that you are not claiming to be something you are not.

Called out · Nov 3, 2012

What all churches have been trying to do is to stomp out the true name of the Almighty Yehowah. And they were waiting for a Messiah and not a Christ and the true name of the Messiah is Yehowshuwa. It is the names that have been hidden, King James replace the name Yehowah with the word LORD and incorrectly translated the name Yehowshuwa to Jesus
Yehowshuwa came in his Father's name, Yehowshuwa means Yehowah's loud call to freedom.
Rome the 'terrible beast' stomped and persecuted all the true followers of Yehowshuwa and burned bibles all to stomp out the name

Matthew 24:9 KJV
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
John 15:21 KJV
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Interplanner · Nov 4, 2012

To Ebed re the mystery. A slight adjustment, but no serious conflict with above. The mystery is not that the inclusion of the nations was coming, but how. it would not be by their practice of the Law. It would be by faith embracing the work of Christ. The accomplishment of Christ is such a basis for both.

By contrast, Judaizers, if they were interested in the nations, were very particular about how they practiced the Law. This was completely absent in the apostles teaching. But of course, there was no land of Israel that mattered to their ministry that the nations had to be purified for.

--Inter

Epoisses · Nov 4, 2012

daq said:
Therefore Yeshua Christou is the seed of FAITH, and the seed of the FAITHFUL who believe the Word of the Father and act upon that belief, which seed is the seed of Abraham, which is the seed of David, which holy seed is SPIRIT. And IF the Law cannot disannul the promise-covenant to Abraham, even though the Law came 430 years after; then neither does the ''New Covenant'' completely disannul the ''Old Covenant'' but rather merely the letter of the law in ordinances which kept out the Gentiles by partitioning wall of separation, (i.e. ''no Canaanites, no Moabites, no Gentiles in the house of YHWH''). Ruth the Moabitess is a perfect example of what was to come; yet she did not graft Boaz into her own Moabite ways but rather FORSOOK her own people and ways and was grafted into Judah. Therefore everything is reversed when we begin to see and walk according to the SPIRIT. Those who claim to be IN CHRIST by default then claim to be ''Jews'' because Yeshua is the Lion of Judah. One will never succeed in grafting the Lion of Judah into himself or herself and making him to be a Gentile. The following is therefore directed to everyone here:

Revelation 3:9 KJV
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Be careful when you claim to be IN CHRIST that you are not claiming to be something you are not.

What a bunch of nonsense.

The new covenant most assuredly does annul or replace the ‘old covenant’. The Abrahamic covenant and the new covenant are the same thing – the covenant of faith. There are only two types of covenants. One is by faith or promise and the other is by works or the Law. The new covenant is the same as Abrahamic covenant and the everlasting covenant.

All the great Jewish men of the old covenant were great because of their faith not because they were circumcised or could trace their lineage back to Abraham. Paul referred to these works of the flesh as worthless. The name ‘Israel’ means to prevail or overcome and was given to Jacob after his night of trouble where he refused to let go of God until he was blessed. All those who belong to Israel will like Jacob have a faith that will not falter.

Enoch, Noah and Abraham are part of Israel and they lived before Jacob was even born. The new Jerusalem is the home of the saved throughout eternity. If Christians are not part of Israel how could they live in a city called by the same name as the capital of Israel. All those who enter the city go thru one of the twelve gates which are the twelve tribes of Israel. Jews, Christians, Muslims and all those who have the ‘faith of Jesus’ are part of Israel.

Interplanner · Nov 4, 2012

To Daq,
I think there is some confusion about why Paul raised the point that the later Law could not bump the Promise. The confusion is that what you said means you thought the Law was providing the way for blessing and Christians shouldn't ignore that after the arrival of Christ. The question would then be whether it provided that. As the previous said, it's the Law that gets bumped aside for this purpose (it has others), not the Promise. Paul sought to get all readers back to the universally-available Promise, which was now fufillled in Christ and his gift. Gal. 3:22

2, you'd be better off with a NT example of a Gentile being in or out of the new Israel

3, now back to Rev. 3:19 with its inflammatory declaration. Can you now see that the ones who think the Law is a basis (which is what 1st century Judaizing was about) are the Israel that really is not Israel?

Gal 3:21 is expressed in terms of 3 possibilities for the Law: it is a basis for recieving blessing; 2, it is not; 3, it has other purposes. Paul affirms 2 and 3. It was needed for defining transgressions against the Canaanite religion landscape. To use the Law for #1 is to imprison a person.

--Inter

ebedmelech · Nov 4, 2012

Interplanner said:
To Ebed re the mystery. A slight adjustment, but no serious conflict with above. The mystery is not that the inclusion of the nations was coming, but how. it would not be by their practice of the Law. It would be by faith embracing the work of Christ. The accomplishment of Christ is such a basis for both.

By contrast, Judaizers, if they were interested in the nations, were very particular about how they practiced the Law. This was completely absent in the apostles teaching. But of course, there was no land of Israel that mattered to their ministry that the nations had to be purified for.

--Inter

I agree. As Paul says in showing his heart for his "kinsmen according to the flesh"...their whole problem was they didn't seek God by faith...they sought Him by "the works of the law"...and it's breaking Paul's heart for them. Even as they were persecuting him at the time. How sad for Paul!

daq · Nov 4, 2012

Epoisses said:
What a bunch of nonsense.

The new covenant most assuredly does annul or replace the old covenant. The Abrahamic covenant and the new covenant are the same thing the covenant of faith. There are only two types of covenants. One is by faith or promise and the other is by works or the Law. The new covenant is the same as Abrahamic covenant and the everlasting covenant.

All the great Jewish men of the old covenant were great because of their faith not because they were circumcised or could trace their lineage back to Abraham. Paul referred to these works of the flesh as worthless. The name Israel means to prevail or overcome and was given to Jacob after his night of trouble where he refused to let go of God until he was blessed. All those who belong to Israel will like Jacob have a faith that will not falter.

Enoch, Noah and Abraham are part of Israel and they lived before Jacob was even born. The new Jerusalem is the home of the saved throughout eternity. If Christians are not part of Israel how could they live in a city called by the same name as the capital of Israel. All those who enter the city go thru one of the twelve gates which are the twelve tribes of Israel. Jews, Christians, Muslims and all those who have the faith of Jesus are part of Israel.

Interplanner said:
To Daq,
I think there is some confusion about why Paul raised the point that the later Law could not bump the Promise. The confusion is that what you said means you thought the Law was providing the way for blessing and Christians shouldn't ignore that after the arrival of Christ. The question would then be whether it provided that. As the previous said, it's the Law that gets bumped aside for this purpose (it has others), not the Promise. Paul sought to get all readers back to the universally-available Promise, which was now fufillled in Christ and his gift. Gal. 3:22

2, you'd be better off with a NT example of a Gentile being in or out of the new Israel

3, now back to Rev. 3:19 with its inflammatory declaration. Can you now see that the ones who think the Law is a basis (which is what 1st century Judaizing was about) are the Israel that really is not Israel?

Gal 3:21 is expressed in terms of 3 possibilities for the Law: it is a basis for recieving blessing; 2, it is not; 3, it has other purposes. Paul affirms 2 and 3. It was needed for defining transgressions against the Canaanite religion landscape. To use the Law for #1 is to imprison a person.

--Inter

And just exactly how is it supposed to be possible for any man to remove the blinders from the eyes of those who refuse to see? Those who willfully ignore the Word of the Master are likened to the blind following the blind and will end up in a ditch. Even worse it is to see two blind men in a ditch proclaiming to a passer by how lost he will be if he does join them in their misery in the ditch.

To the both of you: IF neither of you have ever been ''under the Law'' then what is it that you presume yourselves to be freed from? The Law has nothing to do with salvation and never did. However, if you have never been ''under the Law'' then you also have never been ''school-mastered'' INTO CHRIST. And if you do not have the Spirit of Torah then you have no clue what true ''liberty'' concerns according to the Scripture. The Spirit of Torah is the only way to be set free from the bondage of the flesh-letter of the Law; neither a jot nor a tittle shall pass away until all is fulfilled, (each in his or her own appointed times).

daq said:
Matthew 15:21-28 KJV
21. And Jesus went out thence, and withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon.
22. And behold, a Canaanitish woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. But she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. And he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.
27. But she said, Yea, Lord: for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it done unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was healed from that hour.

1) Yeshua was in the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, not ''Israel'' proper.
2) The woman was a Canaanitish or heathen.
3) Worship was neither the desired outcome nor the point.
4) Repentance, Submission, and CHANGE OF MINDSET was necessary.
5) The woman was grafted into the house of Israel BY FAITH.
6) The woman was ''no more a Canaanite'' in the house of YHWH Sabaoth, (Zechariah 14:21).

The Master clearly and emphatically states:

''I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'' ...

Please show where this statement is rescinded, expounded, or altered?

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