Stand Fast and Hold the Traditions

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

ghty said:
Mit Romney only cares about money. He invests in Plan B you cant trust him. He's a liar who doesnt care about the people whose lives he ruins.

Politics is yet another stumbling block, i once thought that stuff mattered, but the Lord set me free from that mess. Neither Obama or Romney are servants of the Gospel, they are just politicians.

sculleywr · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Are you so sure those things are not taught to us in scripture? Paul teaches much on those things. I think maybe you just need to justify tradition. And that's Ok, we all learn and eventually our opinions can change, mine sure have, but i didn't easily give them up at first.

Tradition in my church that i went to when i was a kid didn't allow musical instruments, they misinterpreted scripture in that particular area i believe. Yet i think they were not entirely in err. They taught the gospel and that's what matters most, they didn't contradict the Gospel doctrine, they just misunderstood a few things and it was tradition that was to blame, scripture itself showed me the err in that doctrine, tradition only misinterpreted it, but im glad i came here and learned a few things since then.

I was raised Baptist, so I have gone the exact opposite way. I think you are misconstruing something. Paul does not teach the exacts. He gives basic guidelines and corrections, but he did not give details. How exactly did an early church service work?

Tradition is not something that misconstrues scripture. These issues that I have mentioned are extremely important. Other issues though, that are not discussed in Scripture in length:

The dual natures of Christ.
the two wills of Christ
What is the role of each Person of the Trinity in salvation?
Who is the leadership to whom we submit in the Church?
How do we confirm that they are leading us into the true interpretation of scripture?

The whole reason that these are important is this:

an incorrect teaching about what God gave us is, by extension, an incorrect teaching about God. Incorrect teaching about God leads to incorrect knowledge about God. Incorrect knowledge about God leads to a false communion with God: instead of being in communion with God as He truly is, we gain communion with something other than the Truth about God.

False doctrine leads to false worship and false practice. We have to have proper doctrine, because false doctrine impedes and prevents true Communion with God.

That is what True Tradition does. It prevents false doctrine. By preventing false doctrine, we will have true faith.

sculleywr · Oct 20, 2012

ghty said:
Mit Romney only cares about money. He invests in Plan B you cant trust him. He's a liar who doesnt care about the people whose lives he ruins.

what??? Off-topic...

christseeker45 · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
What man can change scripture? None.

The scriptures are the authority that no man can change because he doesn't have the authority to do so.

That means the scriptures stand alone and have the authority of God.

Show me a doctrine that man has changed or added to and i'll show you false doctrine.

Yet one man did change Scriptures, in the 1500's Luther took out books and made a 66 book compilation. A doctrine man has added OSAS, etc.

christseeker45 · Oct 20, 2012

I read in the thread "What Tradition does Paul refer to?" Well for centuries people knew but it was Protestants who rejected that Tradition. What are those Traditions? Things that both East and West agree upon that can be traced back to the Fathers. Christianity is so much more than one book, yes it is a Word of God (Christ is the Word of God) but it doesn't end or begin there.

sculleywr · Oct 20, 2012

christseeker45 said:
I read in the thread "What Tradition does Paul refer to?" Well for centuries people knew but it was Protestants who rejected that Tradition. What are those Traditions? Things that both East and West agree upon that can be traced back to the Fathers. Christianity is so much more than one book, yes it is a Word of God (Christ is the Word of God) but it doesn't end or begin there.

Thank you for that explanation.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Tradition in my church that i went to when i was a kid didn't allow musical instruments, they misinterpreted scripture in that particular area i believe. Yet i think they were not entirely in err. They taught the gospel and that's what matters most, they didn't contradict the Gospel doctrine, they just misunderstood a few things and it was tradition that was to blame, scripture itself showed me the err in that doctrine, tradition only misinterpreted it, but im glad i came here and learned a few things since then.

Good for you

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
Jesus vs the Judean rulers

Isaiah 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause [them] to err,
And [those who are] led by them are swallowed-up.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God".

Rick Otto · Oct 20, 2012

christseeker45 said:
I read in the thread "What Tradition does Paul refer to?" Well for centuries people knew but it was Protestants who rejected that Tradition. What are those Traditions? Things that both East and West agree upon that can be traced back to the Fathers. Christianity is so much more than one book, yes it is a Word of God (Christ is the Word of God) but it doesn't end or begin there.

LOL, "For centuries people knew... "
For centuries some people thought they knew, & most didn't even know to ask.
East & West stopped agreeing centuries ago, long before anyone called "Protestant" arrived.
Let's not gloss over everything, explain nothing, perpetuating half truths & promoting myths.

Rick Otto · Oct 20, 2012

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Would that groups who "love" tradition, "love" this information from Irenaeus that ties out to Paul's instruction.

You're right. If it 'hurts' your brother, don't do it. Pretty simple stuff, but folks love their Traditions. Per the OP, however, it's now been shown what those were and they no longer correspond to what schismatically developed centuries later.

weariedsoul said:
I must agree again. Paul taught us to remove unnecessary stumbling blocks. Sure we may not always agree on all things but we dont need things that are unnecessary. Are those things i mentioned necessary? If not then they are stumbling blocks that divide us and should be removed so the Gospel can shine brighter.

Even now we debate and blemish it.

Defending it removes blemish.
It's a means of removing the post-gospel traditions.

Scully mentioned Christian service. Since it is not dictated in scripture, it would be interesting to investigate that.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2012

Standing Up said:
From scripture:

2 Thes. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Always nice when scripture and early Christian tradition come together. So, stand fast and hold to the traditions whether written or spoken.

That word is mentioned 1 time in the Gospels :angel:

Mark 11:25 `And whenever ye may be standing-firm/sthkhte <4739> (5725) praying, forgive if ye have anything against any one,
that your Father also, Who is in the heavens, may forgive you your trespasses;

2 Thes. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, be ye standing-fast/sthkete <4739> (5720)!, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4739 matches the Greek στήκω (stēkō), which occurs 8 times in 8 verses in the Greek concordance

4739. steko stay'-ko from the perfect tense of 2476; to be stationary, i.e. (figuratively) to persevere:--stand (fast).

.

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

sculleywr said:
I was raised Baptist, so I have gone the exact opposite way. I think you are misconstruing something. Paul does not teach the exacts. He gives basic guidelines and corrections, but he did not give details. How exactly did an early church service work?

Tradition is not something that misconstrues scripture. These issues that I have mentioned are extremely important. Other issues though, that are not discussed in Scripture in length:

The dual natures of Christ.
the two wills of Christ
What is the role of each Person of the Trinity in salvation?
Who is the leadership to whom we submit in the Church?
How do we confirm that they are leading us into the true interpretation of scripture?

The whole reason that these are important is this:

an incorrect teaching about what God gave us is, by extension, an incorrect teaching about God. Incorrect teaching about God leads to incorrect knowledge about God. Incorrect knowledge about God leads to a false communion with God: instead of being in communion with God as He truly is, we gain communion with something other than the Truth about God.

False doctrine leads to false worship and false practice. We have to have proper doctrine, because false doctrine impedes and prevents true Communion with God.

That is what True Tradition does. It prevents false doctrine. By preventing false doctrine, we will have true faith.

I disagree. I think you are complicating things. Do i need to know all mysteries to serve Christ? No, i need faith and his teaching, that's all.

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

christseeker45 said:
Yet one man did change Scriptures, in the 1500's Luther took out books and made a 66 book compilation. A doctrine man has added OSAS, etc.

Took out books from what? What did he take away or add?

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

Rick Otto said:
Originally Posted by Standing Up Would that groups who "love" tradition, "love" this information from Irenaeus that ties out to Paul's instruction.

You're right. If it 'hurts' your brother, don't do it. Pretty simple stuff, but folks love their Traditions. Per the OP, however, it's now been shown what those were and they no longer correspond to what schismatically developed centuries later.

Defending it removes blemish.
It's a means of removing the post-gospel traditions.

Scully mentioned Christian service. Since it is not dictated in scripture, it would be interesting to investigate that.

Yes, i suppose it can take away blemish. Christian service is taught in Scripture.

Tzaousios · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
And tradition is better? The tradition that we have seen ever since the dark ages has played a role in creating that mess, tradition is hardy the answer. That just creates more "interpretations"

I really hope Albion sees this usage of the term "dark ages." What are you talking about, other than what you perceive to be a time when the big, bad Catholic Church beat down the poor, little Proto-Protestant and "messed" everything up?

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

Tzaousios said:
I really hope Albion sees this usage of the term "dark ages." What are you talking about, other than what you perceive to be a time when the big, bad Catholic Church beat down the poor, little Proto-Protestant and "messed" everything up?

Thats not how i think. But there were things done in the past that came about through false teachers and their traditions. Its just a fact we cannot ignore. I dont trust current traditions for obvious reasons.

Rick Otto · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Yes, i suppose it can take away blemish. Christian service is taught in Scripture.

Sorry you misunderstood. I meant the weekly hour or two at a specific, usualy church owned venue.

Jesus nor any of the apostles are recorded as having held one, at least not in the form we are accustomed to now.

You have found the politicaly incorrect "hot button" term ("dark ages") for at least one catholic protestant.

Tzaousios · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Thats not how i think. But there were things done in the past that came about be false teachers and their traditions. Its just a fact we cannot ignore. I dont trust current traditions for obvious reasons.

What were those "things," then, that happened in the early middle ages that cause you to associate Catholicism with "false teachers" and "traditions?" Be specific. History should not be used as a rhetorical vehicle for one's ecclesiological and theological prejudices.

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

Rick Otto said:
Sorry you misunderstood. I meant the weekly hour or two at a specific, usualy church owned venue.

Jesus nor any of the apostles are recorded as having held one, at least not in the form we are accustomed to now.

I agree, fellowship is important though.

weariedsoul · Oct 20, 2012

Tzaousios said:
What were those "things," then, that happened in the early middle ages that cause you to associate Catholicism with "false teachers" and "traditions?" Be specific. History should not be used as a rhetorical vehicle for one's ecclesiological and theological prejudices.

I already mentioned more recent things that RCC tradition has established. Like the Mary prayer for example. Are protestants not praying properly without the RCC Mary prayer,? If you say no then you agree the prayer is unnecessary. Yet it divides us over a man made tradition that has no value to the body as a whole.

But what do you think? Is that prayer necessary?

sculleywr · Oct 20, 2012

weariedsoul said:
I disagree. I think you are complicating things. Do i need to know all mysteries to serve Christ? No, i need faith and his teaching, that's all.

False knowledge about Christ leads to false communion with Christ. False communion with Christ is no communion at all.

Stand Fast and Hold the Traditions

Well-Known Member

Orthodox Colitis Survivor

Orthodox Colitis Survivor

christseeker45

Guest

christseeker45

Guest

Orthodox Colitis Survivor

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

The Dude Abides

The Dude Abides

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός

Well-Known Member

The Dude Abides

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Orthodox Colitis Survivor

Similar threads