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Schaeffer vs Driscoll about Hell

Macarius

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no, if they did, we would not have it today.

Yup.

And the 5th council made it pretty clear that universalism was a heresy precisely because of how it violated human freedom.

It is the unequivocal and universal teaching of the fathers (really, really obviously from a really, really early time) that humans are responsible for their choices and free to make those choices. This was a MAJOR point of contention between the gnostics (determinists, like many neo-platonists) and Orthodox (non-determinist proponents of free will), which is why it shows up so early in Orthodox thought (e.g. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and others).

The first theologian to suggest otherwise was Augustine, and mostly in response to Pelagius' over-application of the principle of human freedom (teaching that, because we are free and responsible for our actions that we can somehow save ourselves). We would say Augustine was right to object to Pelagius' teachings, but may have responded incorrectly in so far as Augustine's response, at times, feels dangerously close to denying human freedom (apart from the free ability to sin) - that is, to denying a very consistent patristic teaching.

And IF we are responsible for our actions and choices THEN hell exists, or must at least exist as an expression of that freedom and responsibility.

Some, historically, have seen hell as an expression of justice (a right punishment for those who, by choice, did evil in the world). Some have seen it as an expression of love (as the minimal existence God provides to those who reject His life; or as the tormenting presence of God's love among those who have hardened themselves against it).

All of these are, historically, acceptable.

Some have thought that people can be saved from hell. Others have not. These are also acceptable positions.

But only a few have outright asserted that ALL those in hell will be saved (or that hell is empty). And this is NOT acceptable, because THEN there is no responsibility - no real consequence - for the actions and choices we make. There is, in short, no REAL, SUBSTANTIAL free will. Placed in non-juridical language: without the ability to reject God for eternity, we have no real ability to reject God; without the ability to reject God, we have no free will since, ultimately, that would imply we have only one choice (to accept God).

So hell is necessary - not as a way of scaring people, but as a way of protecting a critical patristic teaching: we are free, we are responsible, and this responsibility has real import for our future.
 
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Macarius

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Didn't the Fathers view that it was acceptable to hope that all may be saved? Or am I mistaken?

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Yes. That is my hope and prayer. St. Isaac the Syrian prayed for the salvation of Satan himself, taking to its logical conclusion the command to love our enemies. Other saints have expressed similar sentiments (including at least one of the Cappadocian fathers).
 
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Gnarwhal

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So I've heard mixed things about Schaeffer, what's the general consensus on him? I've heard everything from "he's extraordinary at representing the Orthodox faith" to "he's a big unhinged and not widely supported anymore".

I finally got to read the article, Schaeffer's segment seemed pretty compelling whereas Driscoll's was typical drivel (for him and for Evangelicalism in general). I'm not a fan of his to begin with so I can't really give an objective opinion of his piece.
 
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Knee V

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So I've heard mixed things about Schaeffer, what's the general consensus on him? I've heard everything from "he's extraordinary at representing the Orthodox faith" to "he's a big unhinged and not widely supported anymore".

I finally got to read the article, Schaeffer's segment seemed pretty compelling whereas Driscoll's was typical drivel (for him and for Evangelicalism in general). I'm not a fan of his to begin with so I can't really give an objective opinion of his piece.

My opinion of Schaeffer is that he is a person to whom I pay no attention. He has his struggles like the rest of us, but it seems like he rides the coattails of his father in terms of popularity while having no real credentials that would give him any business being in the Orthodox limelight. Anyone can write a book or two...
 
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rusmeister

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Schaeffer is basically taking one side of a balanced doctrine (the mercy of God; that He is not a sadistic punishing God) and making that out to be the whole doctrine and therefore denies the other side of the coin, our Lord's words on the sheep and the goats and the rest of the Church teachings on hell. It's the first openly heretical thing I've sen him say. It IS universalism, as Mac said, which is condemned.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Didn't the Fathers view that it was acceptable to hope that all may be saved? Or am I mistaken?

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oh yes, we can certainly hope and pray for the salvation of all, Elder Paisios prayed for Satan to repent. but who does and does not is known only to God. I think even St Macarius the Great prayed for some dead pagan priests, and it was revealed to him that his prayers lessened their torment.
 
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Gnarwhal

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So with all this being said, I'll ask the million dollar question which I honestly don't recall if it has been presented before here on TAW: what's the general consensus from TAW on Rob Bell's thesis in Love Wins? :D

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So with all this being said, I'll ask the million dollar question which I honestly don't recall if it has been presented before here on TAW: what's the general consensus from TAW on Rob Bell's thesis in Love Wins? :D

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I am not familiar enough with Rob Bell to critique his views. Could you perhaps give a brief synopsis?
 
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Gnarwhal

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I am not familiar enough with Rob Bell to critique his views. Could you perhaps give a brief synopsis?

I'll do my best. :)

It's been a while since I've read Love Wins, but essentially, Bell is attempting to counterbalance the dominating Evangelical belief about what happens after we die.

Two of the overarching points that comprise the theme (I would say) are these:

• Hell is just as much a reality now, as it is a reality of the future.
• Love demands the freedom to choose.

Ultimately his conclusion is "we don't know for sure", and challenges those that pretend to, but also suggests that it's appropriate and "fitting" to hope that God may in the end save all of us. He provides some compelling arguments for why God's Love for us demands the freedom to choose either (as Bell puts it) Christ's version of the story for our lives, or our own. I think at one point he discusses the Orthodox perspective of hell being in the presence of God's love while rejecting said love, although I don't remember if he attributes it to Orthodoxy.

As far as the "hell as a present reality" point, he discusses the social aspects of "hell on earth" as evils that we can posture ourselves against in the present like human trafficking, hunger, exploitation, violence, et al.

I suggest taking my overview with a grain of salt both because it's been a while since I've read Love Wins, but also because I'm biased towards Rob Bell. He references Origen and Tertullian in it, though I know they were considered schismatics or heretics. I think he also references some of the saints too like Gregory of Nyssa.

Perhaps I'll try to take another brief pass through it and edit this ex post facto if there's anything worth adding or if I misrepresented it in any way.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It's been a while since I've read Love Wins, but essentially, Bell is attempting to counterbalance the dominating Evangelical belief about what happens after we die.

Two of the overarching points that comprise the theme (I would say) are these:

• Hell is just as much a reality now, as it is a reality of the future.
• Love demands the freedom to choose.

Ultimately his conclusion is "we don't know for sure", and challenges those that pretend to, but also suggests that it's appropriate and "fitting" to hope that God may in the end save all of us. He provides some compelling arguments for why God's Love for us demands the freedom to choose either (as Bell puts it) Christ's version of the story for our lives, or our own. I think at one point he discusses the Orthodox perspective of hell being in the presence of God's love while rejecting said love, although I don't remember if he attributes it to Orthodoxy.

As far as the "hell as a present reality" point, he discusses the social aspects of "hell on earth" as evils that we can posture ourselves against in the present like human trafficking, hunger, exploitation, violence, et al.

I suggest taking my overview with a grain of salt both because it's been a while since I've read Love Wins, but also because I'm biased towards Rob Bell. He references Origen and Tertullian in it, though I know they were considered schismatics or heretics. I think he also references some of the saints too like Gregory of Nyssa.

Perhaps I'll try to take another brief pass through it and edit this ex post facto if there's anything worth adding or if I misrepresented it in any way.
I remember reading "Love Wins" sometime last year. Hearing a lot of hearsay about it from others who saw some of the commercials for it and already concluded that the man was a universalist when he didn't even say that much and seeing how others who read the book seemed to radically differ in opinion than many of the mainstream teachers/leaders denouncing it (i.e John Piper, Mark Driscoll, John McCarther, etc), I often got a bit frustrated with the civil wars. I remember when Christian leader John Piper famously tweeted “Farewell Rob Bell,” linking to a blog post by Justin Taylor which suggests that Bell’s teachings on the subject are “false doctrine"...and having others going so far as to get rid of everything Bell ever did prior to the book (including series they agreed with), I was thinking that there was WAY more overreaction than warranted.


So I went and bought the book to ensure that I wasn't slandering the man and to see what he was actually saying. Not surprisngly, there were many good things present and there were negatives present as well. Much of it wasn't nearly as bad as other Evangelicals made it out to be and a lot of it was actually directly in line with people many of those same evangelicals would champion (such as C.S Lewis, who made plain in one of his writings that Hell was locked from the inside/people were in Hell because they chose to be....and could leave if they truly repented). That many Evangelicals denouncing Bell kept SILENT on that one (probably because it'd lead to people seeing more inconsistency in their stances than they'd be comfortable with----and they already had A LOT of stances that were just as much an issue as with Bell, especially as it concerns Reformed Theology)...it shows they often didn't have a lot of valid points.

Many people accusing him came from the Reformed background and I always found it interesting to see them denounce him as a universalist who felt all were going to make it to heaven and yet their worldview supported a reverse form of universalism that said God's elect/chosen were predestined to make it in regardless of their actions...thus making it where they were upset at Bell for seemingly having a more expansive view of salvation where all get it regardless while they had a view more restrictive saying only some will get in regardless. It didn't line up to me and it's one of the reasons why I took what many critics said on the work with a grain of salt. Apart from the fact that they often seemed to slander him (even when his own website said differently from what they claimed since he believers there will be others in Hell just like in Heaven), they've often divorced themselves from anything regarding Ancient Christianity and that's enough of an issue whenever many critics were still making claims in their own theology as if al who didn't believe it were not "orthodox" even though what they espoused was developed many centuries after the early church and radically different from what was once considered Orthodox. In that regard, I was actually glad to see Bell challenge them on their own terms whenever they'd speak of church history...

It does not seem that Rob Bell teaches universalism (that every one will be saved) which can also be called apocatastasis (Origen's teaching, at least in his younger speculative days). Bell writes that people who refuse a “vital connection with the living God” are given over to a “kind of life [that] is less and less connected with God” (Love Wins, 66). And this is no mere theoretical state of affairs, “because it is absolutely vital that we acknowledge that love, grace and humanity can be rejected” (my italics)—and if so, “God gives us what we want, and if that’s hell, we can have it” (72). Again, this more or less what C.S. Lewis wrote with a less provocative and perhaps less confusing approach.

There are a lot of other things that I disagree with Bell on, to be clear ( more shared here, here, here and here ). Although I appreciated his attempts at addressing certain scriptural realities often ignored within Evangelical circles or belittled, I did think he was a bit incomplete in his analysis. On p.g 107, he quoted Clement of Alexandria, Eusbesius, Gregory of Nyssa and Origen to establish the claim that what he advocated (universal reconcilliation) was not a new concept....and in that, I agree base on what I've studied in my own journey within Eastern Christianity. However, there were others besides them that often shared on the subject and it seemed like he would have made more of a difference if speaking on the ones who disagreed with the people he quoted on p.g 107 (as well as other places saints/other figures from antiquity were quoted). The ways that the book often seemed to raise more questions than answers bothered me since it didn't seem to often come out forcefully on many points as needed.

I did appreciate what he noted as it concerns Hell and Hell being present realities--something else many Evangelicals were bothered by as if it was a new thought even though others said the same thing. Dr.Martin Luther King, in example, often denoucned ministers preaching with a "pie in the sky" mentality with looking to the Lord and yet ignoring involvement as a Church with the issues harming others in the present. In his words, "a minister cannot preach the glories of heaven while ignoring social conditions in his own community that cause men an earthly hell." King (who later became a Liberation Theologian due to his heart for addressing the physical realities of others in connection with the spiritual) and many others had the mindset that to be a believer/advocate of the Kingdom of God meant that we are to get involved showing what life in Heaven is about----and with that said, I did take a lot of issue with others saying Bell wasn't concerned with the kingdom of God even though his very history has been one of consistently proclaiming the Love of God/Christ, the problems with rejecting His rule and how we need to submit to the Lord.

What Bell seemed to be trying to address in the book was in connection to his heart of showing the love of God to all groups, including those who do not know of Him and have never been able to---and keeping things focused on how we're to live out our lives properly rather than simply think it's centered on espousing all of the correct doctrinal points verbally. Our faith as believers was always meant to be one where we were very much concerned with being of earthly good to others who are within our ability to impact for Him since the Lord did the same for us. Tabitha certainly had that mindset in Acts 9:35-37 when she was always aiding the poor---and so did other apostles. Only in our times does it seem that being earthly good/working for the good of all men (even unbelievers, if it means working with them) is considered to be a problem somehow...but it wasn't always so, at least in the U.S. It seems that the concept centuries ago in the U.S was to be "earthly good" since there were many things off in the U.S that needed to be reformed in the 18th/19th centuries (i.e. child sweat shops/labor, slavery, prison reform, etc)---with physical action always being seen as a reflection of what spiritual reality one holds to and whether or not they're really "spiritually good/minded at all." John Wesley and William Wilberforce amongst others were key leaders in taking charge of things. Sadly, in later times, people felt that focusing too much on the physical led to people missing the spiritual transformation of their souls---and so there was a strong Evangelical Revival that spread on preaching on the Kingdom of God...with much preaching on conversion being the focus......and in the process, all that matter was the intellectual side of things and talking of Christ rather than living it out/

Bell has the mindset that even the person who may not know as much as the most scholarly believer (or who even knows of Christ at all) would be approved of the Lord if they were seeking to walk in justice/show concern as Christ noted in Luke 10:25-39 with the Good Samaritan and Matthew 25 with those who did righteousness via feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting others in prison and showing real concern. It's why he referenced his respect for Ghandi near the beginning of the book and wondered how it was that people automatically assumed that he/many others are automatically in Hell because of how they didn't respect the "Christianity" of their day that was more intellectual/verbal than practical or consistent with Christ (in line with what Ghandi noted in saying "I respect your Christ, not your Christians" when speaking of all the abuses done by many in India in the name of Christ).

Bell's work feeding widows/orphans and many others in works of charity are proof, IMHO, of his devotion to the Lord per James 1 which notes how "pure and spotless religion before God is to look after widows/orphans and keep yourself from being polluted by the world." Where I think Bell was off is that it can be problematic claiming that all people in Hell are there based on choice alone and can choose to leave in the spiritual reality just like they can in the earthly one. For me, part of me was wondering "Does that not work in reverse as well? For if people are free to leave Hell to go to HEAVEN, would that also mean that the saints in Heaven would also be free to leave Heaven in order to go to Hell?"....and that would bring up an entirely different realm/set of issues that would need to be addressed if there is to be consistency. All of that said, Bell may be incomplete at many points...and I would dare say, "over the rainbow"/out there on other issues.....but I think much of what he said needs to be considered.

As another said best:
If we hold any respect for scripture, we are going to have to account for God’s judgment and wrath and, yes, the Biblical texts that refer to hell. In other words, the “hell” block may not fit well at the foundation of our faith, but – when we eventually rebuild the tower – its going to have to fit into it somewhere.

While the “traditional” side is frightened that no new worldview can emerge once we pull the block, the opposite side of the debate may underestimate how difficult its going to be to put together a new tower. We need to approach the subject with sobriety, and respect for the prior generations who handed this perspective to our own.


To summarize, then, here is what I think is at stake: We aren’t just arguing over a few minor points of doctrine, we are arguing over a key component which is central (even essential) to the faith of a large number of Christians. A great number of things depend on how we answer the “hell” question.


If interested, there was a good review on the issue which I found at the following. I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of it, but it definately gave a lot of food for thought:


Love Wins - An Orthodox View
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It's been a while since I've read Love Wins, but essentially, Bell is attempting to counterbalance the dominating Evangelical belief about what happens after we die.
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The civil war within the Evangelical world has been stunning, to say the least, as it concerns the ways that others who've often noted the imbalance in the Evangelical world have all arisen up and the people who used to be dominant voices are now frustrated that Bell is being listened to. For nearly every critic I heard of Rob Bell, they often had arguments that seemed to be based on popularity issues done in the name of "correct doctrine"...for if they did something Bell did/ascribed to, it'd often come off from them as if they were the first to suggest it---but when Bell did something they weren't doing, it seemed they sought to minimize it while making what they did seem better. Because Bell never fit into their worldview and had no issue disagreeing/raising solid points of disagreement, it caused many to be very frustrated.

As C.S Lewis noted, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside.." -and it is odd how many Evangelicals got upset with Bell....yet remained silent on other heroes in Evangelical culture they wanted to keep.

Going to the website for the book/seeing first hand what Bell said (as well as what he stated directly in interviews, here and here /here and here), I'm surprised to see so many that often came out and spoke counter to it (putting words in the mouth of others). So thankful other Evangelicals stood up on the issue - even though there are others I've seen standing up whom I support and yet still have pause on (as seen here and here /here)...and others I keep in mind for good consideration when it comes to the reality of Hope for the Unevangelized. For others that may bless you:

As said from one of the articles:


Early critics of the book were wrong and they owe Bell an apology. Nowhere in the book does Bell affirm universalism . . . Bell does say it is okay to “long for” universal salvation. So did Pope John Paul II! I’m sure some critics who jumped the gun and attacked Bell for promoting universalism without reading the book will come back around and use that to support what they said. But they are not the same. To long for universal salvation is not to affirm it.
. . . The point is: universalism is the assertion that eventually all will be saved. Nowhere does Bell assert that.

. . . Chapter 6 is about what is usually called inclusivism — that salvation through Jesus Christ is not limited to those who hear his name. (I’ve discussed problems with restrictivism here before.) I find nothing in that chapter that Billy Graham has not said. (Go to youtube.com and look up Graham’s responses to questions from Robert Schuler.)

. . . Those who accused Bell of teaching universalism based on promotion of Love Wins jumped the gun and owe him an apology. I won’t hold my breath.

Vilifying anyone based on what you think they are going to say is clear evidence of bad judgment; it breaks all the rules of civil discourse. It is part of what I mean by “evangelicals behaving badly” and illustrates what I call the fundamentalist ethos.

Perhaps the time has come for moderate and progressive evangelicals to say “Farewell neo-fundamentalists.” There’s no point in prolonging the long kiss goodbye. We are two movements now — fundamentalists and neo-fundamentalists, on the one hand, and moderate to progressive evangelicals on the other hand....when I read Mohler’s article about Bell’s book in Southern Seminary Magazine, I’m not especially surprised to read misrepresentation of Bell’s theology in that book. I have read the book twice and still have not found any statement of Bell’s own belief (as opposed to statements about others’ beliefs) that clearly embraces universalism or clearly denies hell.

Later in Mohler’s article he writes “With Love Wins, Bell moves solidly within the world of Protestant Liberalism. His message is a form of liberalism arriving late on the scene.” (p. 28) Later in the article, Mohler quotes C. S. Lewis approvingly (p. 29)–as if Lewis was orthodox by Mohler’s standards. In fact, however, anyone who has read The Great Divorce knows that Bell’s view of hell and Lewis’ are very similar if not identical (viz., that hell’s door is locked on the inside).

I can say with confidence that nothing Bell has published or said yet (that I am aware of) puts him “solidly” within the world of Protestant Liberalism. Such a claim smacks of fundamentalism–where everyone but they are liberals.

Elsewhere in the article Mohler decries “evangelicals promoting and teaching concepts such as unversalism, inclusivism, postmortem evangelism, conditional immortality and annihilationism.” (p. 28) It would be helpful if he named some names. Which evangelicals promote or teach universalism? None that are influential. What does Mohler have to say about Billy Graham who clearly and unequivocally embraced inclusivism? (I have provided the proof of that here before and it’s easy to find on the internet.) What does he have to say about the fact that when the National Association of Evangelicals formed in 1941/1942 a denomination that explicitly teaches annihilationism was a founding member of the organization (the Advent Christian Church) and is still a member in good standing of the NAE? What does he have to say about John Stott embracing annihilationism? Are all these examples of evangelical accommodation to modernity as he suggests? I don’t think so.
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I finally got to read the article, Schaeffer's segment seemed pretty compelling whereas Driscoll's was typical drivel (for him and for Evangelicalism in general). .
Driscoll often has seemed to be on the extreme end of things...and Schaeffer seemed to be very reasonable.
 
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