One Thousand Years - Millennium, Here or There?

3 Angels Messages · Apr 17, 2012

Hentenza said:
This looks like numerology. You can do all the math that you want but 1844 has no biblical meaning whatsoever. ...

Perhaps you might consider in detail the following posts in their order, from the scripture, along with corroborating evidences:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877/

Hentenza · Apr 17, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Perhaps you might consider in detail the following posts in their order, from the scripture, along with corroborating evidences:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877/

I studied the material before and is highly speculative. I have discarded it.

3 Angels Messages · Apr 17, 2012

Hentenza said:
I studied the material before and is highly speculative. I have discarded it.

Curious. Which parts specifically? There is always more detail.

Hentenza · Apr 17, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Curious. Which parts specifically? There is always more detail.

I read Miller's Apology a few years back and discarded it then. It will take me a while to read though my margin notes to be able to answer you and to be honest, my time is a bit tapped right now. Sorry about that.

3 Angels Messages · Apr 17, 2012

Hentenza said:
I read Miller's Apology a few years back and discarded it then. It will take me a while to read though my margin notes to be able to answer you and to be honest, my time is a bit tapped right now. Sorry about that.

My PM is always open.

3 Angels Messages · Apr 17, 2012

What is then taking place on the Earth while the Saints are reigning in Heaven for 1000 years?

During the 1000 years all of the wicked, who were a that time alive, are slain, left dead as refuse "upon the ground" [Jer 25:33], a "great supper" for "all the fowls" [Matt 24:28; Luke 17:37; Rev 19:17], destroyed by the 7 last plagues [Rev 16:1-21], great hail, earthquake [Rev 16:18] and JESUS' Glory and Brightness of HIS 2nd Advent [2 Thess 2:8]...this is why scripture can say, "that the rest of the dead [being all of the wicked], lived not again until the thousand years are finished".

Destruction and judgment are laid heavy upon the earth, in its sin filled and polluted condition, who will be able to live there, "reign" there or want to?

All of the "rest of the dead" [all of the wicked who have ever been] are not alive during the 1000 years. Earth is left desolate, broken down, left in darkness, and only Satan and his angels remain there, "bound" in the barren "wilderness", unable to tempt anyone:

And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. (Isa 24:22) [All wicked are gathered into bundles, in death, and are "shut up" in graves until 1000 years is over [the "after many days"], then they shall be resurrected]

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Matt 13:40)

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (Matt 24:28)

...Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together. (Luke 17:37;p)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thess 1:8)

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thess 2:8)

I will utterly consume all [things] from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zep 1:2)

I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zeph 1:3)

And the idols he shall utterly abolish. (Isa 2:18) [See also Dan 2:34,45]

And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isa 2:19)

To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isa 2:21)

...he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. (Isa 11:4;p)

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. (Isa 24:1)

The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. (Isa 24:3)

The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. (Isa 24:19)

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (Isa 24:20)

Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. (Isa 34:1)

For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. (Isa 34:2)

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. (Isa 34:3)

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree. (Isa 34:4)

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. (Isa 34:9)

I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. (Jer 4:23)

I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (Jer 4:25)

I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. (Jer 4:26)

For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Jer 4:27) [The full end comes after the 1,000 years]

For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. (Jer 4:28)

The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (Jer 4:29)

And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. (Jer 25:33)

In the 2nd Advent of JESUS [which begins the 1,000 years], a great and mighty earthquake rocks the world and the 1st Great Resurrection happens [Rev 20:4-6]:

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. (Rev 16:8)

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:... (Rev 16:9;p)

And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (Rev 16:20)

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Rev 16:21)

With these passages how can there be a "1000 years" "reign" of peace on the Earth by anyone? For scripture continues by clearly saying:

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt 24:37)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matt 24:38)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt 24:39)

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:27)

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; (Luke 17:28)

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. (Luke 17:29)

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (Luke 17:30)

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thess 5:3)

Satan [typological scapegoat, `aza'zel, not a sacrifice for sin, but ultimately responsible for all sin] then, after the Saints are "caught up" "into the air" and the wicked are "brought low" and "slain" [to await their final sentencing in the Second resurrection after the 1000 years], is bound by his surrounding circumstance in the "1000 years" on the desolate Earth, the "wilderness" a "land not inhabited" [see Jer 4:23-29, 25:33], where was once the "fruitful place", and he is bound and led away, just as Lev 16 and Rev 20:1-3 reveal [for events beforehand compare also Lev 16:17 to Rev 15:8, and also Lev 16:20 with JESUS coming out of Heaven to Heb 9:28]:

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. (Lev 16:8)

But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (Lev 16:10)

And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: (Lev 16:20) [compare]

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (Rev 20:1)

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (Lev 16:21)

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Lev 16:22) [compare]

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Rev 20:2)

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Rev 20:3)

Lysimachus · Apr 17, 2012

PaladinValer said:
Illogical and you self-defeated your own statement...

Nothing illogical. You can know something for its existence, but not know something for its inspiration. You are intelligent enough to know what I meant.

PaladinValer said:
Simple: it wasn't taught in the orthodox group. It was taught by the Donatists, Montanists, and Apollinarianists, not by the Christians by the late 3rd and early 4th centuries.

What was the "orthodox" group? And what are there exact statements on the millennium? I have found none from your sources yet.

PaladinValer said:
The Millennium was a popular belief among Jewish Zealots. That is enough as well for it to be put out of its misery.

Any sources, and quotes, to prove that the Jewish Zealots believed in a millennium? And what year was it?

Also, just because a heretical church might hold to a doctrine, what makes that doctrine false?

PaladinValer said:
No...

No? Sure sounds like it. You're famous for disagreeing, but not showing why.

PaladinValer said:
Debatable, and even if so, not the kind most often found (Dispensationalism) in premillennialists today.

Not exactly the same kind, but it was very close. Their quotations are very clear that Christ's visible Second Advent preceded the millennium. I've read their quotes.

PaladinValer said:
Revelation barely made the Holy Canon because of its favored use by heretics for this exact reason. The Church only formally accepted it by St. Augustine of Hippo's time largely due to his interpretation, which became the norm.

So, instead of helping the Chilliasts correct their views of a carnal, earthly millennium, throw out the baby with the bathwater and discard it completely? Sounds more like what the Amillennialists are doing.

PaladinValer said:
Thus, when the NT was formally nailed down as it were, the interpretation was set at Amillennialism, not classic Premillennialism.

Precisely right at the height of the "falling away". And the horrors of the Dark Ages, and bloody persecutions ensued during the time this erroneous interpretation was held in high esteem. And the ones who held an "Amillennial" view

PaladinValer said:
There is no spiritualizing of anything. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a spiritual thing but a real kingdom on Earth

Interesting that this is coming out of the mouth of an Anglican. Why are you not Catholic then? Why do you claim to be Anglican?

PaladinValer said:
Furthermore, the Holy Writ makes it clear that Holy Baptism is our resurrection in the Lord. It is our personal rising in the Lord in His Resurrection, making His, ours'.

That is the spiritual resurrection, but it is not the

That's the "first Resurrection."

That is a "spiritual" resurrection, it is not the "first resurrection". A second physical always precedes a first physical. If the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection, then it goes to follow that the second one be spiritual as well. You are applying false hermeneutical applications to Holy Writ.

PaladinValer said:
There will be a general resurrection...but I see no reason to bring up the point as if I somehow didn't believe it.

There is a Spiritual Resurrection in the life, there is the First Resurrection (physical--of the righteous), and there is the Second Resurrection (physical--of the wicked). A resurrection of the righteous, and the resurrection of the wicked--righteous at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the wicked at the end of the 1000 years.

"(4)I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They [righteous] came to life [first resurrection] and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) (The rest of the dead [wicked] did not come to life until the thousand years were ended [second resurrection].) "This is the first resurrection[/COLOR]. (6) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection [righteous]. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)

It is very clear. The "rest of the dead" that "come to life" are the wicked, because at the end of the 1000 years, Satan deceive these wicked that come to life. These are the resurrected wicked nations that Satan goes out to deceive in the four-quarters of the earth. To say that coming to life is a spiritual resurrection is erroneous, because that would mean the wicked dead that are the same as the "rest of the dead" also come to life spiritually at the end of the 1000 years, but we know that is not the case as they die in the Lake of Fire.

PaladinValer said:
The First Resurrection and the Second Resurrection bookmarks the beginning and end of the millennium.

That is correct, but the First Resurrection is the literal/physical resurrection of the Righteous at the One-Time Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of glory.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28,29)

Two resurrections here--the resurrection of life for those who have done "good", and the "resurrection of damnation" for those who have done "evil. Very simple, very plain. Every single person that comes up in the first resurrection is righteous. Every single person that comes up in second resurrection is wicked.

If you wake up when Jesus comes at the Second Coming, and you see your guardian angel, you know you have been saved. If you wake up on a desolated earth with the New Jerusalem descending down, that Beloved City, and hosts of wicked people, you know you have been lost forever. When we die now, we will come up in either of the two resurrections. Those who come up in the resurrection at the end of the millennium will be lost and thrown in the Lake of Fire.

"And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." (John 14:14)

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Revelation 12:2)

In the Gospels, Jesus never once referred to a spiritual resurrection, but always spoke of the resurrection as a physical event.

Martha even acknowledged this,

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." (John 11:24)

I'm sorry Paladin, but the plain language of the scriptures completely repudiate your extreme-allegorical interpretations of Holy Writ.

PaladinValer said:
Holy Baptism. Next?

Sorry; same event.

Baptism is a symbol of our rebirth in Christ Jesus. The spiritual resurrection in the soul precedes the First Resurrection of the Righteous. But the spiritual resurrection cannot be labeled "first", because then it would follow that the second resurrection be spiritual also, and then there could be no general resurrection.

PaladinValer said:
Nope. Sorry; I don't embrace ideas contrary to the Nicene Creed, which speaks of ONE Resurrection; the wording is CLEAR. There is NO PLURAL!

You can have the Nicene Creed as your Creed, but the Bible will be my Creed. I don't believe in creeds, sorry. The Bible is my only Creed. Wait, I think I said that already.

PaladinValer said:
I already am according to the Nicene Creed, by which God made it clear that your beliefs are utterly impossible for orthodox Christians to believe.

The Nicene Creed was written by man, not God. I go by the Bible, and the Bible alone completely refutes the position of the Nicene Creed.

PaladinValer said:
Not into endangering myself to experience hell if it is God's Will for rejecting the traditional interpretation of the Nicene Creed.

Who said anything about hell? I'm saying you will be surprised to see the eschatological chronology pan out very different than what the Nicene Creed tells you. Orthodoxy won't save you, God and His Word alone will. Let the Words and the Holy Spirit guiding your study of those Words shape your theology, not man-made Creeds. That is my advice to you.

PaladinValer said:
Here's why Millennialism is bogus...

Mhmm...oookay. As you say Pal.

Lysimachus · Apr 17, 2012

Hentenza said:
I read Miller's Apology a few years back and discarded it then. It will take me a while to read though my margin notes to be able to answer you and to be honest, my time is a bit tapped right now. Sorry about that.

Remember that Miller did not have all the light. He had a lot of error. But it was the burden that God planted in his heart that mattered. White and all the pioneers were sure to point out Miller's errors.

But there was one thing the Advent pioneers kept ever before them. Like some, we never throw out the baby with the bathwater. Perhaps what was God trying to teach us? What was He trying to guide us to? Was He trying to lead us to some greater truths through these disappointing times? They prayed for days to know the truth with earnest and heart-felt supplications before God.

Lysimachus · Apr 17, 2012

The Scapegoat and Revelation's Millennium:

Stephen Bohr: His Way is in the Sanctuary 23/32 - YouTube

3 Angels Messages · Apr 17, 2012

Lysimachus said:
The Scapegoat and Revelation's Millennium:

Stephen Bohr: His Way is in the Sanctuary 23/32 - YouTube

Thank you, I love that guy... I also understand he speaks excellent spanish for those who speak it.

PaladinValer · Apr 18, 2012

Lysimachus said:
Nothing illogical. You can know something for its existence, but not know something for its inspiration. You are intelligent enough to know what I meant.

Yes; I know that to be an invalid belief. Emotions do NOT trump logic. I am intelligent enough to know that.

What was the "orthodox" group? And what are there exact statements on the millennium? I have found none from your sources yet.

Ecumenical Councils.

Any sources, and quotes, to prove that the Jewish Zealots believed in a millennium? And what year was it?

Research 1st century Judaism.

Also, just because a heretical church might hold to a doctrine, what makes that doctrine false?

When it disagrees with the orthodox church, yes.

No? Sure sounds like it. You're famous for disagreeing, but not showing why.

Given your tenure here, these are weasal words, unless hearsay.

Not exactly the same kind, but it was very close. Their quotations are very clear that Christ's visible Second Advent preceded the millennium. I've read their quotes.

Its actually very close, and its escapism is, essentially, a quazi form of Manicheanism.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "visible Second Advent," just THE Second Advent. More Manichean/Gnostic nonsense.

So, instead of helping the Chilliasts correct their views of a carnal, earthly millennium, throw out the baby with the bathwater and discard it completely? Sounds more like what the Amillennialists are doing.

You didn't read very well the statement this is in reply to. Look a little closer.

Precisely right at the height of the "falling away".

No such thing. I'm not a Mormon.

And the horrors of the Dark Ages, and bloody persecutions ensued during the time this erroneous interpretation was held in high esteem. And the ones who held an "Amillennial" view.

Fallacy of Style over Substance. Invalid argument. Just because most who commit X crime believe in Y doesn't mean Y is the reason for X.

Logic!

Interesting that this is coming out of the mouth of an Anglican. Why are you not Catholic then? Why do you claim to be Anglican?

Because you don't know Anglicanism very well.

That is a "spiritual" resurrection, it is not the "first resurrection".

Not into unorthodoxy. Read Luther sometime.

A second physical always precedes a first physical.

Nope; not in the Creed, and therefore, not something that is permissible for orthodox Christians to hold.

<snip>

You can have the Nicene Creed as your Creed, but the Bible will be my Creed. I don't believe in creeds, sorry. The Bible is my only Creed. Wait, I think I said that already.

Which is why many do not consider your beliefs at all Christian.

The Nicene Creed was written by man, not God. I go by the Bible, and the Bible alone completely refutes the position of the Nicene Creed.

Resee the rules here.

Who said anything about hell? I'm saying you will be surprised to see the eschatological chronology pan out very different than what the Nicene Creed tells you. Orthodoxy won't save you, God and His Word alone will. Let the Words and the Holy Spirit guiding your study of those Words shape your theology, not man-made Creeds. That is my advice to you.

Sorry; I reject your advice in the Name of God Almighty.

No Creed=No Christianity. That's orthodoxy and I stick to it.

3 Angels Messages · Apr 18, 2012

Since the scriptures reveal that the Saints are not on the Earth during the "1000 years", and the unrighteous do "not inherit the Kingdom of GOD" [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], how then can it be taught that the Saints "reign" over the wicked as some assume?

The scriptures never speak of the Saints reigning "over" the wicked, but rather the scriptures say that the Saints shall "reign with CHRIST JESUS".

What does this mean?

Let us look at some instances of how the scriptures use the word "reign" here:

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:17)

Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. (1 Corinthians 4:8)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

It is not a 'reign over the wicked' as some have judged. It is rather a "reign[ing] with CHRIST JESUS" in life and peace.

Scripture says that during the 1000 years, we will be able to look over the record books and see the judgments of GOD, and HE will be vindicated, for it is ultimately HE that has been on trial, HIS goodness, HIS Justice, HIS Love, Mercy, etc:

The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. (Psalms 19:9)

Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever. (Psalms 119:160)

The LORD [is] righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. (Psalms 145:17)

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:4)

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Romans 2:27)

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. (Romans 14:13)

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Corinthians 4:5)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (1 Corinthians 6:2)

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments. (Revelation 16:7)

For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (Revelation 19:2)

We will get to look at the righteous judgments of GOD, for GOD is JUDGE [Isaiah 3:13, 11:4, 33:22; John 12:48; Acts 10:42, 17:31; Romans 2:16, 3:6; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Hebrews 10:30, 12:23, 13:4; James 5:9; 1 Peter 4:5; Revelation 6:10, 19:11], and realize that HE is fair, just, and love in all things.

CHRIST JESUS said it will not be like those who "excercise lordship":

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. (Luke 22:25)

But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luke 22:26)

It is interesting to see some additionally teach that there will even be marriages and births during the "1000 years", but let us see what scripture plainly says; for we know that the "First Resurrection" and the 2nd Advent begin the "1000 years" [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:4-6]:

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. (Luke 20:35)

There are some who have suggested and/or taught that JESUS Kingdom will be upon this Earth during the "1000 years", ruling from an earthly Jerusalem, from and earthly temple, HE has said to them through the scriptures,"...My kingdom is not of this world ..." [John 18:36;p].

The "1000 years" "reign" will then not be upon this sin polluted Earth. CHRIST JESUS has said of the physical Jewish Israelite Temple, "...your house is left unto you desolate..." [Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35;p], and it was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans under Titus ["the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city"; see Daniel 9:26; Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14] as prophesied by CHRIST JESUS, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." [see Matthew 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:44, 21:6].

For the Church itself, and its members, the Body of CHRIST, are the "Holy Temple" of the Living GOD, "lively stones", and "pillar" [1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12], JESUS is our "Temple" [John 2:19-20; see also Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 14:58, 15:29] and the "Temple" in Heaven [Exodus 25:9,40; Hebrews 9:23; Revelation 7:15, 11:1-2,19, 14:15,17, 15:5-6,8, 16:1,17, 21:22] and we, as Abraham and the faithful, do not look for an earthly city, but rather an "Heavenly" City, "whose builder an Maker is GOD", "New Jerusalem" [Hebrews 11:10,13-14,16,39-40, 12:22; Revelation 3:12, 21:2].

There will indeed be a "reign" "forever and ever" upon Earth, but it shall be the Earth "made new", which the "meek shall inherit", after the "1000 years" and the destruction of Satan and all of the wicked.

For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: (Isaiah 28:10)

Let us ask directly of scripture: "Who shall not inherit and who shall not reign, and what then shall their portion and inheritance be?"

The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. (Job 20:27)

The increase of his house shall depart, [and his goods] shall flow away in the day of his wrath. (Job 20:28)

This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (Job 20:29)

For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (Job 31:2)

[Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)

Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1 Corinthians 6:9)

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:21)

It is clear that the wicked shall not "reign", neither "inherit the Kingdom of GOD" but their "portion" and "inheritance" is "destruction", "fire and brimstone".

Let us next ask of scripture: "Who then shall inherit and reign?"

PaladinValer · Apr 18, 2012

Christ already reigns. The Solemnity of Christ the King is the Last Sunday in Ordinary Time each year. His Kingdom is the Church, and as the Creed says, it will have no end.

Hentenza · Apr 18, 2012

PaladinValer said:
Christ already reigns. The Solemnity of Christ the King is the Last Sunday in Ordinary Time each year. His Kingdom is the Church, and as the Creed says, it will have no end.

Jesus kingdom is not the church. Are you saying that He has no dominion outside of the church?

Lysimachus · Apr 18, 2012

Jesus' Kingdom of Glory is in heaven, in the New Jerusalem.

Jesus' Kingdom of Grace is here on earth now.

The Kingdom of Glory will eventually be setup on earth after the New Jerusalem sets down.

PaladinValer · Apr 18, 2012

Hentenza said:
Jesus kingdom is not the church. Are you saying that He has no dominion outside of the church?

Christ's Kingdom is the Church; it is its embodiment here.

He rules all creation, but only the church is its "fullest expression" as it were currently. Upon His Second Advent, He will transfigure the material plane in His Eternal Glory as heaven and Earth become one. Then every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

So He does rule and will always rule for the rest of eternity. That is why I reject the Millennium; it is limiting and meant to be symbolic of its perfect, everlasting nature.

Gnarwhal · Apr 18, 2012

PaladinValer said:
Christ's Kingdom is the Church; it is its embodiment here.

He rules all creation, but only the church is its "fullest expression" as it were currently. Upon His Second Advent, He will transfigure the material plane in His Eternal Glory as heaven and Earth become one. Then every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

So He does rule and will always rule for the rest of eternity. That is why I reject the Millennium; it is limiting and meant to be symbolic of its perfect, everlasting nature.

Well said! Our future hope... "now and not yet" as Wright puts it.

listed · Apr 18, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Since the scriptures reveal that the Saints are not on the Earth during the "1000 years", and the unrighteous do "not inherit the Kingdom of GOD" [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], how then can it be taught that the Saints "reign" over the wicked as some assume?

The scriptures never speak of the Saints reigning "over" the wicked, but rather the scriptures say that the Saints shall "reign with CHRIST JESUS".

What does this mean?

Let us look at some instances of how the scriptures use the word "reign" here:

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:17)

Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. (1 Corinthians 4:8)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

It is not a 'reign over the wicked' as some have judged. It is rather a "reign[ing] with CHRIST JESUS" in life and peace.

Scripture says that during the 1000 years, we will be able to look over the record books and see the judgments of GOD, and HE will be vindicated, for it is ultimately HE that has been on trial, HIS goodness, HIS Justice, HIS Love, Mercy, etc:

The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. (Psalms 19:9)

Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever. (Psalms 119:160)

The LORD [is] righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. (Psalms 145:17)

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:4)

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Romans 2:27)

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. (Romans 14:13)

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Corinthians 4:5)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (1 Corinthians 6:2)

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments. (Revelation 16:7)

For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (Revelation 19:2)

We will get to look at the righteous judgments of GOD, for GOD is JUDGE [Isaiah 3:13, 11:4, 33:22; John 12:48; Acts 10:42, 17:31; Romans 2:16, 3:6; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Hebrews 10:30, 12:23, 13:4; James 5:9; 1 Peter 4:5; Revelation 6:10, 19:11], and realize that HE is fair, just, and love in all things.

CHRIST JESUS said it will not be like those who "excercise lordship":

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. (Luke 22:25)

But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luke 22:26)

It is interesting to see some additionally teach that there will even be marriages and births during the "1000 years", but let us see what scripture plainly says; for we know that the "First Resurrection" and the 2nd Advent begin the "1000 years" [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:4-6]:

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. (Luke 20:35)

There are some who have suggested and/or taught that JESUS Kingdom will be upon this Earth during the "1000 years", ruling from an earthly Jerusalem, from and earthly temple, HE has said to them through the scriptures,"...My kingdom is not of this world ..." [John 18:36;p].

The "1000 years" "reign" will then not be upon this sin polluted Earth. CHRIST JESUS has said of the physical Jewish Israelite Temple, "...your house is left unto you desolate..." [Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35;p], and it was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans under Titus ["the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city"; see Daniel 9:26; Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14] as prophesied by CHRIST JESUS, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." [see Matthew 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:44, 21:6].

For the Church itself, and its members, the Body of CHRIST, are the "Holy Temple" of the Living GOD, "lively stones", and "pillar" [1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12], JESUS is our "Temple" [John 2:19-20; see also Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 14:58, 15:29] and the "Temple" in Heaven [Exodus 25:9,40; Hebrews 9:23; Revelation 7:15, 11:1-2,19, 14:15,17, 15:5-6,8, 16:1,17, 21:22] and we, as Abraham and the faithful, do not look for an earthly city, but rather an "Heavenly" City, "whose builder an Maker is GOD", "New Jerusalem" [Hebrews 11:10,13-14,16,39-40, 12:22; Revelation 3:12, 21:2].

There will indeed be a "reign" "forever and ever" upon Earth, but it shall be the Earth "made new", which the "meek shall inherit", after the "1000 years" and the destruction of Satan and all of the wicked.

For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: (Isaiah 28:10)

Let us ask directly of scripture: "Who shall not inherit and who shall not reign, and what then shall their portion and inheritance be?"

The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. (Job 20:27)

The increase of his house shall depart, [and his goods] shall flow away in the day of his wrath. (Job 20:28)

This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (Job 20:29)

For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (Job 31:2)

[Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)

Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1 Corinthians 6:9)

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:21)

It is clear that the wicked shall not "reign", neither "inherit the Kingdom of GOD" but their "portion" and "inheritance" is "destruction", "fire and brimstone".

Let us next ask of scripture: "Who then shall inherit and reign?"

Will you please tell me in a single sentence when the 1,000 years begin such as before or after a phrophetic event.

Lysimachus · Apr 18, 2012

listed said:
Will you please tell me in a single sentence when the 1,000 years begin such as before or after a phrophetic event.

Begins at the Second Advent, which is yet future. At the First Resurrection of the Righteous, and destruction of the wicked and the world.

PaladinValer · Apr 18, 2012

Bourne said:
Well said! Our future hope... "now and not yet" as Wright puts it.

+Wright is quite the man, isn't he?

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