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What's it take to be a Messianic?

ChavaK

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Another thread got derailed (big surprise!) and one of the underlying thoughts was what does it take to be a Messianic? What should one
do to differentiate it from Christianity?

In other words, what would most here consider the minimum one must
do to be considered Messianic?
 

Avodat

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Another thread got derailed (big surprise!) and one of the underlying thoughts was what does it take to be a Messianic? What should one
do to differentiate it from Christianity?

In other words, what would most here consider the minimum one must
do to be considered Messianic?

We've had this almost exact same question on these fora before (last spring / summer) - it caused mayhem because certain people thought it divisive and designed to force people to fit into boxes! It will be interesting to see if this thread has the same effect.
 
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A

aniello

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Another thread got derailed (big surprise!) and one of the underlying thoughts was what does it take to be a Messianic? What should one
do to differentiate it from Christianity?

In other words, what would most here consider the minimum one must
do to be considered Messianic?

Perhaps a rather creative self-seeking vivid imagination?
 
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Bradley S

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Shalom,

Chavak, I replied to the previous post that got derailed, but in went something like this:

Messianic Jews are comprised of those who are born Jewish and Gentile- the Jews typically have come to believe that Y'shua of Nazareth is haNavi, while the Gentiles typically were those who saw that Torah was legit, and for them (A gentleman from the previous post correctly pointed out that some of the MJs are simply evangelicals trying to convert Jews to Christianity using shabbat as a pretext, but these are a minority now, even though they started the movement in the US). The Torah practiced by MJs is not the same as the Orthodox or Hasidim; MJs typically do not follow the sages, just the texts themselves (so MJs will eat cheeseburgers but not pork, for example). Then again, MJs have adopted some customs which were not present in the original talmidim of Y'shua (you pointed this out in the last post), which is why I am not in favor of the title "Jew" because it creates offense and confusion.

There is no prerequisite, though MJs will perform mikvah they will allow anyone to sit in their assemblies. I suppose the only prerequisite is to believe Y'shua is haNavi, and then to honor haShem by keeping the mitzvot. Hope this helps,

Bradley
 
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Bradley S

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And to separate it from Christianity would be to keep Torah honorable (loving haShem with all your heart- keep shabbat, no tattoos, no pagan-born festivals like Christmas, Easter, etc., no pork, honoring our elders, etc.) We also share all these truths with our Christian friends.
 
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Avodat

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Hi Bradley, welcome to the forum! Did you know that if you wish to teach or debate on this forum you need to be a Messianic believer yourself with the appropriate icon? Otherwise you may only ask questions or post in fellowship.

The SOP Sticky at the head of this forum tells you all you need to know about the rules for the Messianic fora.
 
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ContraMundum

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Depends on the context. Here, on this forum, it takes the mere selection of an icon. In the real world, it usually takes Jewish DNA and the belief in Jesus as Messiah.

However, theologically, the more I have looked over the years, the less I see and formal difference between mainstream MJism and Evangelical Christianity. There is a material difference (as opposed to the formal one), not a genuine formal one. The essential tenets are the same. It is the material differences (rites, ceremonies, peripheral theological opinion etc) that make one more or less fall somewhere in the Messianic spectrum, and some are more Messianic than others and to some, the other Messianics are not Messianic enough.

Really, I have found that it all depends on context. In the real world, I am called a Messianic Jew by most Christians I meet. Here, I am not "Messianic" enough to choose the MJ scroll, albeit my beliefs are almost identical to quite a few here who self-identify as Messianic. All in all, it's mere labels and I don't think it's worth worrying about. I really hate labels anyway. A true believer in Jesus has his or her identity in Him and not in any denomination, form, ceremony or other outward set of opinions or ideals.
 
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Bradley S

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Avadot, thanks for the welcome.

ContraMundum, I feel the exact same way- MJ does not accurately encompass what I believe, and I hate boxes. People like to put people in boxes because the sooner they do, the sooner they can "pack" away what you say. I'd rather not do that. Also, the sooner people are categorized the sooner they are targeted. Since there are no prerequisites to attend an MJ service, why should we make a requirement to adopt a label?

Besides, my ancestry is Jewish, and if I am speaking to a Jew, the title MJ will automatically register as "Evangelical Christian", and I'm not that either.
 
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ContraMundum

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Avadot, thanks for the welcome.

ContraMundum, I feel the exact same way- MJ does not accurately encompass what I believe, and I hate boxes. People like to put people in boxes because the sooner they do, the sooner they can "pack" away what you say. I'd rather not do that. Also, the sooner people are categorized the sooner they are targeted. Since there are no prerequisites to attend an MJ service, why should we make a requirement to adopt a label?

Besides, my ancestry is Jewish, and if I am speaking to a Jew, the title MJ will automatically register as "Evangelical Christian", and I'm not that either.

Exactly. I really hate having to slap up an "icon" that really doesn't represent who I am to those who read my posts, but instead instills an instant prejudice or stereotype for them to filter through the words I write. As you correctly say, this makes the targeting all too easy and basically puts you on speed dial for someone else's pigeon-holing.

What bugs me the most is this: so I'm Jewish. So what. Do the other posters here have to display their ancestry and cultural background for all of us to see? I understand it does help others grasp the life-experience I may have had, and as such I comply with the request to self-identify as a Jewish Christian made to me from the forum for posting purposes, but I think identity is over-rated on internet discussion forums. It really should be about sincerity and content, not identity and boxes.
 
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Qnts2

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Another thread got derailed (big surprise!) and one of the underlying thoughts was what does it take to be a Messianic? What should one
do to differentiate it from Christianity?

In other words, what would most here consider the minimum one must
do to be considered Messianic?

As you know, I separate Messianic from Messianic Judaism, as there are way too many groups calling themselves Messianic which do not believe the same as Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is primarily setup as a gathering of Jewish believers in Jesus/Yeshua. The services typically occur on Shabbat, and include some of the main highlights of a service in Diaspora Judaism. Messianic Jews celebrate or observe the High Holy Days.

Gentiles also join Messianic Judaism synagogues, worship with us, and celebrate the High Holy Days.

At a minimum, a Messianic Jew would be a Jew who believes on Jesus as Messiah, Lord, and God. A Messianic Jew lives culturally Jewish, and celebrates or observes the High Holy Days. A Messianic Gentile who joins in with Messianic Judaism, typically loves and cares for the Jewish people, and joins the culturally Jewish style of worship and celebrates or observes the High Holy Days.

On the other hand, Messianic, which is not particularly Jewish, includes Two House, Sacred Name, One Law, or other variations which is rejected by Messianic Judaism. (The problem with One Law is the teaching that the all of the Mosaic law is a requirement for Gentiles.)
 
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ChavaK

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We've had this almost exact same question on these fora before (last spring / summer)
We did? Guess my memory aint' what it used to be
- it caused mayhem because certain people thought it divisive and designed to force people to fit into boxes! It will be interesting to see if this thread has the same effect.
No need for it to be divisive, nor to force labels on people.
Just interested in everyone's thoughts about what it takes to be a Messianic. I don't think there is any right or wrong.

For instance, in the other thread a comment was made that if Messianics don't worship as Jews do, don't wear yarmukes, have bar mitzvahs etc then what differentiates them from Christians? Is that what it takes, following Jewish customs? Or is it only following what the written Torah says? A mixture of both?

Again, no right or wrong, just interested in peoples viewpoints as to what, let's say, is the minimum one should do to be considered Messianic.
 
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ChavaK

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Shalom,
. I suppose the only prerequisite is to believe Y'shua is haNavi, and then to honor haShem by keeping the mitzvot. Hope this helps,

Bradley
It does, thanks Bradley. That's what I'm looking for....just a concise statement of what it takes at a minimum to be a Messianic.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Here, on this forum, it takes the mere selection of an icon. In the real world, it usually takes Jewish DNA and the belief in Jesus as Messiah.

However, theologically, the more I have looked over the years, the less I see and formal difference between mainstream MJism and Evangelical Christianity. There is a material difference (as opposed to the formal one), not a genuine formal one. The essential tenets are the same. It is the material differences (rites, ceremonies, peripheral theological opinion etc) that make one more or less fall somewhere in the Messianic spectrum, and some are more Messianic than others and to some, the other Messianics are not Messianic enough.

Really, I have found that it all depends on context. In the real world, I am called a Messianic Jew by most Christians I meet. Here, I am not "Messianic" enough to choose the MJ scroll, albeit my beliefs are almost identical to quite a few here who self-identify as Messianic. All in all, it's mere labels and I don't think it's worth worrying about. I really hate labels anyway. A true believer in Jesus has his or her identity in Him and not in any denomination, form, ceremony or other outward set of opinions or ideals.

On what you noted, perhaps it's an issue of pride that influences some of the focus upon the icon dynamic/trying to identify--for to many, having a title makes one feel as if they automatically do "more" or perhaps are "More" than others who do not identify as them...even though others outside of the label box may do exactly as they do and yet are comfortable/confident enough to not feel as if not having the label is what determines their identity. From a larger persepctive, this is something that many Gentiles struggle with when the desire may be to identify as Messianic Jewish because being Jewish in mindset/lifestyle is considered to be far superior to being Gentile...and in their mindset, Yeshua seemed less concerned with love for the Gentile world and more with the Jewish one. Because of those factors that are assumed, it can be bothersome whenever one encounters Jews outside of the "MJish" box that was created who say/make apparent they do the same things done within MJism. It's like someone saying "All Hispanics love Salsa!!!" and making rules/categories upon that....only to encounter a Hispanic who actually hates the musical style and happens to love punk rock. One can either acknowledge that the category is incorrect/needs to be altered, or they can ignore it/continue on...or they can fight against the Rock&Roll Hispanic and claim that he or she is "wrong" for not loving salsa as they believed all Hispanics should.

Whenever other Jews are saying of one another that someone isn't "Jewish" enough and the people said to not be "Jewish" enough are saying of the Jews "You aren't truly Messianic like WE ARe!!!!", you know something's off. Especially when it may be Gentiles who were neither called to live fully Jewish or who assume it's their right to tell other Jews what it means to be Jewish...and assume anything Gentile is automatically "second-class" or not what the Messiah truly loves.

What you noted about Messianic Judaism being identical to Evangelical Christianity is so true. Many have said at times it seems identical to other aspecs of Christianity, be it Fundamentalist or Anabaptists and a myriad of other camps. And many within the MJish movement came from camps outside of it/carried views over into the camp, creating differing strains. As mentioned before:

To my knowledge the RCC is way ahead of the other churches in terms of confession to anti-semitism and seeking to right the wrongs done in the past. I speak of this in regards the institutional level- there have always been Catholics and other Christians of all stripes who have individually done great things for Jewish people, but as an institution, the RCC is way ahead by making formal moves and statements to correct anti-semitism in the Church. Nostra Aetate was a huge step forward for Christianity.

However, while churches gather around making amends with our friends in other faiths, many of us have not buried the hatchet with other Christians. To some people, the RCC is still a scapegoat and whipping boy for all kinds of conceivable and reprehensible deeds, and very rarely is there much substance or reason for this blame found in the facts of the matter. The MJism that is anti-Catholic is basically left-overs from radicalized quasi-Protestantism that evens demonizes normative Protestant churches as well. Hence, it is not uncommon to find that an anti-Catholic MJ is also an anti-"The Churches" MJ. The good news is that mainstream MJism on the whole does not concern itself with such fanatical and irrational thinking, and is in fact a progressive and positive force in the Christian Faith.
I think the anti-Catholicism is a lay-over from radical Protestantism that has managed to find its way into the thinking of some who have journeyed into the Messianic Movement.

But that is just the opinion of a simple bloke like me.
I believe some of the division, confusion and upset is the vast difference between what is perceived as the Messianic movement in North America vs elsewhere, and how we came to be as a whole in the Americas being the bulk of the disagreement. Not "One Law", "Divine Invitation", "Two House" or any of the other smaller doctrinal differences... or even the different "umbrellas" of MJ.

Yesterday, while watching a history-related documentary about the Prohibition some of this discussion came to mind. Some of the very issues we're wrestling back and forth with, are the core issues that only are seen/handled in US congregations and the vastly different flavor we have from the rest of the world due to not only our world view, but the fact of where many of the congregations were began. Between the various Methodist, Baptist, Assemblies of G-d, Presbyterian and Catholic congregations that later encorporated Messianic services, or umbrella congregations, we have ethics, doctrines and dogma tagging along for the ride. This could be the difference between one's understanding of or allowance for liturgy, wine, more Jewish practice, mode of baptism and views on salvation/obedience/works. This would also mean a different understanding of involvement in the public/government sector as far as legislating morality.

Then you have also those "we're on our own" home group types that have a mishmash of everything up above...

Here in Europe and elsewhere, you find that the movement seems to be a little more solidified... not as many doctrinal differences, though different modes of worship, levels of kashrut, and percentage of Jew and Gentile worshiping together.

I have no problems meeting with someone from the MJAA, UCMJ or MIA or any other group. I find that at the core, we truly believe many of the same things. It's in practice, and some other doctrinal issues where we have some of the split hairs. Personally, I believe in two house, but not like the MIA teaches. I gain benefit from some of their teachers, but not all. I find benefit from both major camps of the MJ movement, but not in some avenues. I find major issue with the whole of the "Karaite" Messianic groups, and that I can't seem to get along with any of them because the issue of rabbinic authority always comes up, and they're right, we're wrong. I just get tired of it and move on. :blush:

Having been purchasing Messianic books as of late, I am finding a lot of the theology and doctrine being pushed is more like what I heard growing up, than what I had been hearing from either Messianic camp as of late, whether online, or in audio/video format & in person.
Some of it has to do with the temperance movement, some of it has to do with WASP-type beliefs. It tends to be broken down some as to whichever congregation the MJ core group came out of or is sponsored by. Which is why in many groups, you find basic Baptist beliefs, including pre tribulational rapture, pre-wrath, anti-liturgy/anti-tradition (other than Baptist), anti-Judaism, dispensational, covenental, Calvanistic (Three, four and five point) theology, OSAS/OSNAS... There's a range between SBC and IBC thought in that group. - then you have those coming out of the Methodist groups, which tend to lean more Arminian (though sometimes leaning more Calvanist), traditionalist, holding to sacremental theology and also liturgy - open (though not always) to the ideas and avenues of Rabbinic thought as it relates to practice of MJ.

My experience with Hebrew Catholics has been limited, but those I have known equally hold Messianic Beliefs along with tenants of Catholicism and see no difference or "split" in the two belief systems. One friend kept wholly kosher to the 9s, while the other disagreed on the concept of cheese and meat - not sure if that was due to his Sephardic stint on things or not.

Where I was going with the issue brought forward about the Prohibition - is that most the congregations born out of the WASP group, tend to believe in the morality of legislating morality, pushing political leanings and thoughts from the pulpit or classroom, and if you aren't of their leaning, somehow something's wrong with you or you're less American or less religious or "whatever". :sorry: That everything's cut and dry, white and black - no shades of gray.. Using the term "biblical" is really meaning "Our understanding of what is Biblical based on our understanding of the KJV 1611 AV and our doctrine and dogma - if you believe differently than us, you're a heretic." The whole "only we are the true church, everyone else is in hell" -- the classic jokes about how you'll see one denomination in the liquor store, and the other one will be only coming in at hours no one who knows them will see them purchasing... Heavy on outreach to non-WASP groups, to "save them from their cultural ills" - that kind of thing.


Some have often felt it is not necessary to try arguing that Christianity needs to be seperate from MJism at all points since the camp already reflects it down to a T, even if others within it argue to the contrary. For the main differences are truly within the material realm (i.e Torah processions, Shofar blowing, ceremonies, theological opinions, etc)---just like a black person saying they're not "black" because of their being mixed/a mulatto (i.e having a white parent and being biracial), even though being black is apart of their heritage. There's nothing to be ashamed of with that...but if one's going to say the MJish movement is a reflection of Jewish culture, there needs to be honesty on that one should many Jews have never truly felt that whenever they as Jews are being told by non-Jews how others are doing something for Jews that Jews never really asked for.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Messianic Judaism is primarily setup as a gathering of Jewish believers in Jesus/Yeshua. The services typically occur on Shabbat, and include some of the main highlights of a service in Diaspora Judaism. Messianic Jews celebrate or observe the High Holy Days.

Gentiles also join Messianic Judaism synagogues, worship with us, and celebrate the High Holy Days.

At a minimum, a Messianic Jew would be a Jew who believes on Jesus as Messiah, Lord, and God. A Messianic Jew lives culturally Jewish, and celebrates or observes the High Holy Days. A Messianic Gentile who joins in with Messianic Judaism, typically loves and cares for the Jewish people, and joins the culturally Jewish style of worship and celebrates or observes the High Holy Days.

On the other hand, Messianic, which is not particularly Jewish, includes Two House, Sacred Name, One Law, or other variations which is rejected by Messianic Judaism. (The problem with One Law is the teaching that the all of the Mosaic law is a requirement for Gentiles.)

All about love for Yeshua...:)
 
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etZion

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Another thread got derailed (big surprise!) and one of the underlying thoughts was what does it take to be a Messianic? What should one
do to differentiate it from Christianity?

In other words, what would most here consider the minimum one must
do to be considered Messianic?

Well there is no conversion process, so anyone can use the title, even if the title is maybe used incorrectly, just like Christianity, Christianity is used by many organizations and people, some of which would never work together and in fact would consider the other wrong on many levels.

When I claim Messianic or Messianic Judaism, I don't claim it based on the beliefs of an organization or a congregation I attend... I define it simply in its name, Messianic representing the belief in Messiah and Judaism representing Torah observant lifestyle...

I think at the core of being Messianic is a return to the context and faith of the Apostles, historically, meaning before it was separated, which is the result of Christianity. This effects: doctrines, theologies, and traditions, that in and of itself can create a difference between Christianity, so much so, that I have Christians all the time asking what I believe, its unrecognizable to them, because it is different than their doctrines, and theologies. This is also true for our Jewish friends, yet the opposite, they recognize what we are doing... I have had Jews ask if I was a Jew, with a response of 'no I am a gentile in every way!, just simply seeking to live an obedient life towards God', and that in itself has created some fascinating conversations.

Further more this can be broken down in all areas of theology, just a few examples: what does proper evangelism look like, how should we live our lives, should we obey the commandments out of obedience, or are we free now to disobey... and the list can go on for miles...

More groups within the Messianic camps are being defined and will be separated in time, so just be patient, with more clear perspectives, whether that be: Bilateral Ecclesiology, Divine Invitation, or One Law, or remain Christian (while using the title Messianic) and any others that might arise, etc. That is my 2 cents.
 
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visionary

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I do find that Messianic [believer in Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah, The Holy One of Israel] Judaism [practicing a more Torah lifestyle than the average Christian] is as close as I have seen in the vast congregations out there in Christiandom. Defining is as varied as the different angles that people are coming into this collective movement. As it has been revealed on the forum, the closer to Yeshua lifestyle and faith, the less it reflects Judaism [orthodox or reform in doctrine] or Christianity [traditional doctrines and lifestyles] and the more it has taken on a life of its own. Shifting through the dross of organized religions of either Judaism or Christianity seems to be a phase it is going through in the hunt for the best reflection of Yeshua in His chosen setting.
 
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Qnts2

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When I claim Messianic or Messianic Judaism, I don't claim it based on the beliefs of an organization or a congregation I attend... I define it simply in its name, Messianic representing the belief in Messiah and Judaism representing Torah observant lifestyle...

Since two people have said the 'Judaism' in the label Messianic Judaism represents the Torah observant lifestyle.

That to me is a change in the standard generally accepted definition of Judaism.

Judaism means the religion of the Jewish people. In the U.S., Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism are all Judaisms. They are all Judaisms as they are all the religion of the Jewish people.

Based on your definition, Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism is not Judaism, so the majority of Jewish people in the U.S. are not practicing the Jewish religion?

Sorry all, I don't think you can or should try to redefine Judaism.
 
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visionary

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Since two people have said the 'Judaism' in the label Messianic Judaism represents the Torah observant lifestyle.

That to me is a change in the standard generally accepted definition of Judaism.

Judaism means the religion of the Jewish people. In the U.S., Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism are all Judaisms. They are all Judaisms as they are all the religion of the Jewish people.

Based on your definition, Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism is not Judaism, so the majority of Jewish people in the U.S. are not practicing the Jewish religion?

Sorry all, I don't think you can or should try to redefine Judaism.
:thumbsup:Yep.. even in the definition acceptable among many Messianic Judaism congregation, it has taken on the definition from Mount Sinai.. rather than from the Jews.
 
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