"And so all Israel will be saved"

billybtennessee · Dec 23, 2011

Romans 11:26a. "And so all Israel shall be saved"

I know the views are many, and are varied. My reason is that 'perhaps' we may get a little understanding on what is commonly termed 'elect'.

We know that Israel was the chosen people of God, to receive salvation from Egypt, to receive the law, to be a chosen nation, to be the ones who the Messiah, Jesus Christ, would come through. I personally believe that there are yet prophecies, promises, regarding these people, to be fulfilled.

But, what about the statement in Romans 11;26, and regarding 'all' Israel?

Personally I do not desire debate on the various views. I want to gather input from others, and also scripture used in that input, to better understand any division regarding what the verse means. If personal attacks are made against any person or sect, I will report.

But please, share your views concerning, and also the scriptural reasons as to 'why'. Will, indeed, 'all' Israel be saved, and who and what is meant by 'all'? Thank you.

LaSpino3 · Dec 23, 2011

"All Israel." All Israel would imply that all 12 tribes will be represented in the kingdom of God.

Of course it would not mean every man, women, or child would be saved. Those Jews who reject their Messiah will be judged of God.

Example. The New York Yankees win the World series. They fly home, and in the morning the newspapers read, "All New York came out to meet them at the airport. Of course not every person who lives in New York came, but every town, and municipality was represented as being there.

Rev.7:1-8. All 12 tribes are represented. This would be "All Israel."

Phil LaSpino

God's Word · Dec 23, 2011

billybtennessee:

God's covenant always was, presently is, and always will be with JESUS CHRIST and those who truly belong to Him, whether believing Jews or believing Gentiles.

Galatians 3:16-19

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, which was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

JESUS CHRIST is the singular seed of Abraham to Whom the promises were made...

JESUS CHRIST is the One in Whom God confirmed His covenant...

JESUS CHRIST is the seed Who has come to Whom the promises were made...

Furthermore, "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) consists of all who are truly Abraham's seed through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:26-29), whether they are believing Jews or believing Gentiles. As such, the "all Israel" that Paul said would be saved is comprised of the totality of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. IOW, his comment has absolutely nothing to do with every Jew being saved.

Just an introduction, mind you, but I'll gladly get much further into this with you, if you but so desire to do so.

itisdeliciouscake · Dec 23, 2011

well the context in my opinion seems to clearly be referring to an eschatological end times mass acceptance of Christ by people who are ethnically Jewish. He makes mention about how their rejection brought about the reconciliation of the world (accomplished in Christ's crucifixion) and how their acceptance will bring the Resurrection of the dead.

so it clearly cannot be referring to ALL Israel as in every Jew who ever lived because most Jews have rejected Jesus as the Messiah and the rest of Romans makes it clear that NOT every Jewish person who has ever lived will accept Christ and be saved

neither can it be referring to the Church as the 'true Israel' because contextually Paul is clearly talking about Israel as a nation/people.

billybtennessee · Dec 24, 2011

LaSpino3 said:
"All Israel." All Israel would imply that all 12 tribes will be represented in the kingdom of God.

Of course it would not mean every man, women, or child would be saved. Those Jews who reject their Messiah will be judged of God.

Example. The New York Yankees win the World series. They fly home, and in the morning the newspapers read, "All New York came out to meet them at the airport. Of course not every person who lives in New York came, but every town, and municipality was represented as being there.

Rev.7:1-8. All 12 tribes are represented. This would be "All Israel."

Phil LaSpino

Hope everyone is patient. It will take a while to read and absorb every input. I agree with you. But, in the issue of 'elect', could we not say that this was the nation? Yet, not all would believe or obey through faith, though Israel was chosen? Jude verse 5, as an example.

God's Word · Dec 24, 2011

billybtennessee said:
But, in the issue of 'elect', could we not say that this was the nation? Yet, not all would believe or obey through faith, though Israel was chosen?

billybtennessee:

JESUS CHRIST is God's "elect" or "chosen":

Isaiah 42:1-4 (see also Matthew 12:14-21)

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set forth judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."

I Peter 2:2-10

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, BUT CHOSEN OF GOD, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, ELECT, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are A CHOSEN GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: WHICH IN TIME PAST WERE NOT A PEOPLE, BUT ARE NOW THE PEOPLE OF GOD: WHICH HAD NOT OBTAINED MERCY, BUT NOW HAVE OBTAINED MERCY."

As I mentioned in my last response to you, God's covenant always was, presently is, and always will be with JESUS CHRIST and those who truly belong to Him, whether believing Jew or believing Gentile. Yes, JESUS CHRIST truly is God's ELECT or CHOSEN and the "chosen generation" consists of any believing Jew or Gentile who truly follows JESUS CHRIST. In fact, in the quote from I Peter that we just read, Peter speaks of GENTILE BELIEVERS (those who were once not a people and who had once not obtained mercy) as being A CHOSEN GENERATION. Of course, Peter was quoting from Exodus chapter 19 when he said this...a portion of scripture which MANY greatly misapply as meaning that all Jews are somehow "God's chosen people". They're not. If they are, then GOD has a lot of explaining to do. Afterall, GOD is the One Who SWORE IN HIS WRATH that the vast majority of them would not enter into His rest DUE TO THEIR REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST, THE ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM IN THE WILDERNESS.

I would suggest to you that terms such as "foreknowledge", "election" and "predestination" can be easily explained/understood by the following analogy:

Noah's ark was God's ELECT means of salvation or deliverance from the flood.

God, in His foreknowledge, knew exactly who was going to get on the ark, BUT HE STILL INVITED EVERYBODY. Yes, Noah was "a preacher of righteousness" and God desired, even back then, for none to perish.

Noah's ark was PREDESTINED to rise up above the flood waters and to rest upon the mountains of Ararat.

My point?

JESUS CHRIST is God's ELECT means of salvation or deliverance from sin.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows exactly who will turn to Christ, BUT HE STILL INVITES EVERBODY TO DO SO. Even now, God desires that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

JESUS CHRIST was PREDESTINED to rise "far above all principality and power" and to be seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Those of us, whether believing Jew or believing Gentile, who have truly been "crucified with Christ", "baptized into His death" and "raised up and seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", are now God's ELECT and we are now "accepted IN THE BELOVED" or accepted in JESUS CHRIST, THE VERY ELECT OF GOD.

That's how I see it...

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 24, 2011

Just subscribing for now

Merry Christmas :liturgy:

billybtennessee · Dec 24, 2011

God's Word said:
billybtennessee:

JESUS CHRIST is God's "elect" or "chosen":

Isaiah 42:1-4 (see also Matthew 12:14-21)

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set forth judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."

I Peter 2:2-10

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, BUT CHOSEN OF GOD, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, ELECT, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are A CHOSEN GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: WHICH IN TIME PAST WERE NOT A PEOPLE, BUT ARE NOW THE PEOPLE OF GOD: WHICH HAD NOT OBTAINED MERCY, BUT NOW HAVE OBTAINED MERCY."

As I mentioned in my last response to you, God's covenant always was, presently is, and always will be with JESUS CHRIST and those who truly belong to Him, whether believing Jew or believing Gentile. Yes, JESUS CHRIST truly is God's ELECT or CHOSEN and the "chosen generation" consists of any believing Jew or Gentile who truly follows JESUS CHRIST. In fact, in the quote from I Peter that we just read, Peter speaks of GENTILE BELIEVERS (those who were once not a people and who had once not obtained mercy) as being A CHOSEN GENERATION. Of course, Peter was quoting from Exodus chapter 19 when he said this...a portion of scripture which MANY greatly misapply as meaning that all Jews are somehow "God's chosen people". They're not. If they are, then GOD has a lot of explaining to do. Afterall, GOD is the One Who SWORE IN HIS WRATH that the vast majority of them would not enter into His rest DUE TO THEIR REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST, THE ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM IN THE WILDERNESS.

I would suggest to you that terms such as "foreknowledge", "election" and "predestination" can be easily explained/understood by the following analogy:

Noah's ark was God's ELECT means of salvation or deliverance from the flood.

God, in His foreknowledge, knew exactly who was going to get on the ark, BUT HE STILL INVITED EVERYBODY. Yes, Noah was "a preacher of righteousness" and God desired, even back then, for none to perish.

Noah's ark was PREDESTINED to rise up above the flood waters and to rest upon the mountains of Ararat.

My point?

JESUS CHRIST is God's ELECT means of salvation or deliverance from sin.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows exactly who will turn to Christ, BUT HE STILL INVITES EVERBODY TO DO SO. Even now, God desires that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

JESUS CHRIST was PREDESTINED to rise "far above all principality and power" and to be seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Those of us, whether believing Jew or believing Gentile, who have truly been "crucified with Christ", "baptized into His death" and "raised up and seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", are now God's ELECT and we are now "accepted IN THE BELOVED" or accepted in JESUS CHRIST, THE VERY ELECT OF GOD.

That's how I see it...

You present well written and presented comments. Thank you. Yes, JESUS CHRIST is Gods ELECT means of salvation and deliverance of sin. The elect now are those who come to God through and in Him. Complete agreement there.

Elect is mentioned in regards to others as well. And Israel is one mentioned. In the original languages it was used in Isaiah 45:4, and Psalm 105:43 regarding Israel.

Since the New Testament reveals that the elect are a 'pecular people', in Titus 2:14 and 1st Peter 2:9, it could also be used in regards to Israel in the OT in Exo. 19:5, Deut. 7:6, 14:2, and 26:18, and also Psalm 135:4.

In the NT, Rufus, Rom. 16:13, angels, 1st Tim. 5:21, lady, 2nd John 1, and sister, 2nd John 13.

In the Ot, Saul, 2nd Sam. 21:6, Moses, Psalm 106:23.

So in regards to elect, we can see references that do include Israel. Yet, as Phil stated, not every single person that has been an Israelite, can be in the term 'all', of Rom. 11:26a. But they will be recognized as in the twelve tribes, yet future, using the scripture he referenced. Some, of 'all', will yet come in. But it will be through the Messiah, Jesus, who came and was crucified, and God raised Him from the dead, app. 2,000 years ago. It will only be through Him.

Regarding your comment, absolutely, the only means of being among the elect now, is to come through the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether Jew, or Gentile, we are all grafted into the vine today only through Jesus Christ. One purpose here is to do more in-depth study on 'elect'.

God's Word · Dec 24, 2011

billybtennessee said:
Elect is mentioned in regards to others as well. And Israel is one mentioned. In the original languages it was used in Isaiah 45:4, and Psalm 105:43 regarding Israel.

billybtennessee:

Let's briefly examine these two quotes and see what we can gather from them. If you don't mind, then I'll start with the quote from Psalm 105:43, as it appears first in scripture.

Psalm 105:38-45

"Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them. He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night. The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven. HE OPENED THE ROCK, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river. FOR HE REMEMBERED HIS HOLY PROMISE, AND ABRAHAM HIS SERVANT. And he brought forth his people with joy, AND HIS CHOSEN with gladness: And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people; That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD."

A few things:

1. He opened the rock. Well, we know from the New Testament that "the Rock that followed them...was Christ" (I Corinthians 10:4). IOW, Jesus Christ was with the children of Israel during their wilderness journeys and He is the One Whom they continually sinned against. So much so that GOD SWORE IN HIS WRATH that the majority of the first generation who came out of Egypt would not enter into His rest and they were indeed overthrown in the wilderness. How great a majority? Well, to be exact, 603,548 of the original 603,550 men who were twenty years old and upward were overthrown BY GOD in the wilderness. Only Joshua and Caleb "wholly followed the Lord". Even Moses didn't get to step foot into the promised land. Why? Well, because he didn't properly sanctify the Lord before the people. IOW, when the children of Israel thirsted for water the first time, God instructed Moses to "smite the rock". Remember, this "Rock was Christ" (I Corinthians 10:4), so, in type, God was instructing the Israelites that they first needed to come to Him through the "smitten" or crucified Christ. By doing so, they would have been provided "water" which, in this case, was a type of the Holy Spirit. Well, the second time that the children of Israel thirsted, God instructed Moses to "speak to the rock" in their sight. IOW, having already come to the crucified or smitten Christ, they now needed to speak to Him through prayer to maintain their supply of "water" or a constant supply of the Holy Spirit. Well, Moses got angry at the people and smote the rock a second time. This was a big no no, as, in type, Christ will not be smitten or crucified afresh for a second time. Anyhow, my point is that the VAST MAJORITY of these "chosen ones" were destroyed BY GOD HIMSELF. Let's keep that in mind.

2. In relation to "His chosen", God remembered His holy promise and Abraham His servant. This is VERY IMPORTANT. Again, Paul wrote:

Galatians 3:16-19

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, which was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

Again, JESUS CHRIST is the SINGULAR SEED OF ABRAHAM. IOW, when God made His promises to Abraham AND HIS SEED back in Genesis, He was, in fact, making such promises to JESUS CHRIST. With such in mind, it would behoove all of us to go back and reread such promises and substitute JESUS CHRIST wherever we see Abraham's "seed" mentioned. As both John the Baptist and JESUS CHRIST informed many of the Jews of their own day, not all natural descendants of Abraham are truly Abraham's seed. It is only those who walk in the same faith TOWARDS JESUS CHRIST that Abraham walked in who truly constitute his "seed". Also, as I already pointed out in my first response on this thread, God's covenant was "confirmed before of God IN CHRIST". IOW, there was NEVER a covenant with anyone other than JESUS CHRIST and those who truly belong to Him. Also, as I've already pointed out, JESUS CHRIST is "the seed Who should come to Whom the promises were made"...just as we just read in Galatians. As such, we need to read the Old Testament passages with our "New Testament glasses" on, as it were. IOW, we need to understand exactly what it is that we're reading from the fullness of what God has revealed to us. JESUS CHRIST told Jews who thought that they were Abraham's seed that they were, in actuality, children of the devil. There's a world of difference there and JESUS CHRIST'S assessment of the situation was the correct one. Similarly, John the Baptist told those who mistakenly thought that they were Abraham's seed that God was able of stones to raise up children unto Abraham. He then informed the same folks that they needed to repent and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance to genuinely be considered as Abraham's seed. My point? That when God remembered His promise to Abraham, it was, in fact, a promise that He made to "Abraham's seed", SINGULAR, "and that seed is Christ". As such, it is only those who truly belong to JESUS CHRIST who will reap the benefits of such promises.

3. God gave "his chosen" the lands of the heathen. Even here, we need to read this in light of what we read elsewhere in scripture. For example, IN RELATION TO THE SECOND GENERATION OF ISRAELITES WHO CAME OUT OF EGYPT, or the ones who inherited the lands of the heathen, we read:

Ezekiel 20:18-22

"But I said UNTO THEIR CHILDREN in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. Notwithstanding THE CHILDREN REBELLED AGAINST ME: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: THE I SAID, I WOULD POUR OUT MY FURY UPON THEM, TO ACCOMPLISH MY ANGER AGAINST THEM IN THE WILDERNESS. Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth."

Did you catch that? God thought TO DESTROY THE ENTIRE SECOND GENERATION IN THE WILDERNESS, but only wrought with them for His own name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen. IOW, these "chosen" weren't "chosen" in the manner in which many people whom I've encountered over the years imagine that they were. Again, JESUS CHRIST is truly God's "chosen" or "elect" and anyone who truly follows and obeys Him is therefore "chosen" or "elect", too. I trust that I don't need to remind you of the song that God had Moses teach to this SECOND GENERATION BEFORE they entered the promised land. Just in case that I do, however, you can read it in Deuteronomy 31:22-32:44. It's hardly a flattering song. Rather, it warns of the severe judgments that were going to come upon them for their repeated disobedience and how they would be scattered amongst the nations for their sin. Again, is this how most people view these "chosen people"? I dare say not. Compare this to those who are TRULY "a chosen generation" or to those who TRULY FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST and you'll see that God's "choosing" or "election" directly pertains to JESUS CHRIST AND THOSE WHO TRULY FOLLOW HIM.

Well, I've said enough for now. I don't want this post to run any longer than it already has, so I'll address some of your other points in later posts as time allows me to.

Thanks.

God's Word · Dec 24, 2011

billybtennessee:

Now, I'll briefly address your quote from Isaiah 45:4 which is part of a prophecy that went forth concerning Cyrus:

Isaiah 45:3-4

"And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob my servant's sake, AND ISRAEL MINE ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

Once again, we need to consider such a portion of scripture within its proper context. By way of reminder, as I've already mentioned in my first post on this thread, Isaiah had PREVIOUSLY SAID the following:

Isaiah 42:1-4 (see also Matthew 12:14-21)

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set forth judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."

IOW, Isaiah had PREVIOUSLY stated that JESUS CHRIST is God's very ELECT. Not only this, but if we continue reading through Isaiah, then we read:

Isaiah 49:1-6

"Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; And said unto me, THOU ART MY SERVANT, O ISRAEL, IN WHOM I WILL BE GLORIFIED. Then said I, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said unto me, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore THE PRESERVED OF ISRAEL: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

This is one of many places in the Old Testament where we're given the details of a conversation that has transpired between God the Father and JESUS CHRIST.

Yes, JESUS CHRIST is the One Whose mouth is like a sharp sword...

Yes, JESUS CHRIST is the One Whom God the Father calls ISRAEL (verse 3), the One in Whom He will be glorified...

Yes, JESUS CHRIST is the One Who is lamenting that His labour has been in vain because many ISRAELITES (there are two different "Israels" even in the Old Testament) will not turn to Him...

Yes, JESUS CHRIST is the One Whom God has given to be a light to the Gentiles and His salvation unto the end of the earth...

There are TWO DIFFERENT ISRAELS here, my friend.

The first ISRAEL is JESUS CHRIST, the One in Whom God will be glorified (verse 3).

The second ISRAEL is referring to natural born Israelites who will not turn to Jesus Christ. Again, we read:

"...THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD..." (verse 5)

IOW, the first ISRAEL, JESUS CHRIST, is saying that even though many natural born Israelites will not be gathered unto Him due to their rebellion and unbelief, He will still be glorious in the eyes of the LORD and God's salvation unto the end of the earth. IOW, His salvation will include both believing Jews (the preserved of Israel - verse 6) and believing Gentiles. These two comprise what the Bible calls "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) and they also comprise the "all Israel" which shall be saved.

Romans 11:25-27

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN. AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant with them, when I shall take away their sins."

IOW, it isn't "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in" that "all Israel shall be saved" BECAUSE BELIEVING GENTILES ARE PART OF THE ISRAEL OF GOD AND ALL ISRAEL CANNOT BE SAVED APART FROM THEIR INCLUSION.

I'm sure that's now how a lot of people read it, but that's what the Bible teaches. In fact, far from "all Israel being saved" in the manner in which many believe, the Bible prophesies a HORRIBLE FUTURE for most Israelites. We can discuss that, at length, if you'd like to.

Anyhow, my point is that we cannot just cherry-pick verses (I'm not accusing you of doing such...I'm speaking in generalities) out of context and not consider everything that the scriptures have to say in regards to such topics. The bottom line is this:

Scripture teaches, from cover to cover, that only a remnant of Jews will ultimately be saved. As such, "all Israel" does not and cannot mean what many errantly believe that it means.

Thanks.

from scratch · Dec 24, 2011

I think one can see 2 different groups of people in Romans 11. I think there are different destinies for both groups. Even the natural branches must be graft in to the Root of the olive tree. I don't think that the olive tree is the group that starts the chapter.

heymikey80 · Dec 24, 2011

I think it's closely, closely related, I'm sorry if the few verses following might be treated as a hijack.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Rom 11:28

Who are "they"?

God's Word · Dec 24, 2011

heymikey80 said:
I think it's closely, closely related, I'm sorry if the few verses following might be treated as a hijack.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Rom 11:28

Who are "they"?

heymikey80:

In context, they're clearly unbelieving Jews, but what does this mean? I don't want to quote the entire epistle to the Romans, so I'll just back up far enough to hopefully make my point.

Romans 10:17-21

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

I'll pause here for a moment. When Paul spoke of what Moses said, he was actually quoting from the aforementioned song that God had Moses teach the second generation of Israelites BEFORE they entered into the promised land. Here is the exact quote:

Deuteronomy 32:21

"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people: I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."

Again, "those which are not a people" or this "foolish nation" is referring to BELIEVING GENTILES. Anyhow, PRIOR TO entering the promised land, God had already warned the Jews of their falling away and the consequential provocation which would come from believing Gentiles to hopefully bring them back unto Him THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. Similarly, Paul's Isaiah (Esaias) quote was from Isaiah 65:1-2 and there Isaiah also spoke of how God was found of them which neither sought nor asked for Him (BELIEVING GENTILES) and continually rejected by the disobedient Israelites. Continuing on, we read:

Romans 11:1

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

Here, Paul is stating that God hasn't totally rejected the Jews, as he is a Jew himself. However, it was NOT Paul's ethnicity that saved him, but rather HIS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST THAT SAVED HIM.

Romans 11:2-6

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God AGAINST ISRAEL, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; AND I AM LEFT ALONE, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I HAVE RESERVED TO MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN, WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO THE IMAGE OF BAAL. EVEN SO THEN AT THIS PRESENT TIME ALSO THERE IS A REMNANT ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Elijah (Elias) made intercession to God AGAINST ISRAEL, fancying himself to be the only Jew who still sought after God. God answered him and told him that he had 7,000 men reserved to Himself at that time and Paul said that even in his day there was still A REMNANT ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE. Now, what does this mean? That God just arbitrarily "chose" or "elected" some whilst simultaneously "predestinating" multitudes of others to hell or destruction? NO...A THOUSAND TIMES, NO! It means exactly what Paul had been teaching about up until this point or that those Jews who were seeking justification according to the law AND APART FROM CHRIST would not be partakers with those who sought justification THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST. THIS is what "the election of grace" is all about. Again, JESUS CHRIST is God's "elect" or "chosen" and BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, we can be saved through our trust in Him. IOW, God doesn't really "chose" who is part of this "election of grace". He offers it FREELY TO ALL and those who accept His gracious offer then become "the elect" IN CHRIST.

I'll stop here and see how it goes from here before saying anything else...

P.S. I'm very passionate about this topic/subject for several reasons, so please don't misread my comments as being some sort of rebuke towards you.

wayseer · Dec 25, 2011

Just some thoughts.

Paul was a confused Jew. Here he was, going about his business of sinking the boot into the followers of some guy called Jesus when - wham - he get thrown off his horse and blinded. One way to catch someone's attention.

After recovering his sight and meeting some of the hitherto demonic followers of Jesus he has to make a dash for it. Then he goes off wandering to who knows where for some seven odd years and comes back with all the answers.

What Paul is wrestling with his is Jewishness in the face of the freedom advocated by Jesus. Was Jesus really part of the Law or an extension of that Law. Paul had experienced the freedom of Christ but was still very much anchored within Judaism. Was Jesus a rebel or was he a prophet? How to rationalize these two was Paul's problem.

Paul letters - his genuine letters - are a opening into Paul's mind as he wrestles with various theological problems - not all that successfully either.

Personally I think Paul's balancing act fails. Either Jesus was a Jew advocating for a new understanding of Judaism or he was something else. For me, Jesus was not anxious is starting a church or even a new sect of Judaism. Jesus was a true prophet in the image of the great prophets calling Jews back to their heritage as God's people. If such is the case then 'all Israel is saved' anyway - they are God's people ready or not.

But for Paul this leaves out the Gentiles - which creates his imbalance. So, for Paul, it is the Gentiles 'believers' who will be saved to which he adds an appendage - 'and so all Israel will be saved'.

Epiphoskei · Dec 25, 2011

Remember that "so" carries a wide range of meanings, and an even wider range back when scriptures first began being translated into English.

The Greek word houtos is perhaps better rendered "in this way" than "so" in modern English. Thus, the verse reads "This is the way all Israel will be saved" and the explanation of how Israel will be saved comes in the following verses.

To me, it makes better sense to understand this verse as saying "This is the way all Israelites will be saved [if they're going to be saved, since none will be saved any other way]" - that is, all Israel may be saved by the same Christian faith that includes Gentiles only, and none will be saved through some special route to God which they suppose themselves to have by virtue of being a "chosen people."

Although, to be entirely honest, one of the reasons this reading appeals to me so much is that it spins a favorite Dispy verse on its head. Your mileage may vary.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 25, 2011

I think it goes quite nicely with Romans 9:27.

Not sure how the Jews of today view it tho :sorry:

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the sand of the sea, the Remnant shall be being saved/swqhsetai <4982> (5701)'".
[Isaiah 10:22,23/Daniel 12/Reve 20:8]

Romans 11:26 and thus All/paV <3956> Israel shall be being saved/swqhsetai <4982> (5701).
According as it has been written 'shall be arriving out of Zion the one rescuing He shall be turning away irreverence from Jacob'.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825/#post51584575
LLOJ's Book of Romans verse by verse study

billybtennessee · Dec 30, 2011

So then, Israel is an 'elect' people, nation, but not 'all Israel will be saved', those of physical descent. Just a 'remnant'.

What does this example tell us regarding 'true Israel'? The one who is made up of both jew and gentile? Those in Jesus Christ?

Emmy · Dec 30, 2011

Dear billybtennessee. In Matthew, chapter 23, verses 37-39, Jesus looks down on Jerusalem and says: " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together,etc. 39, for I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, " Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Will that be the time you mean, when Jesus will save all Israel? I ask this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

sleepingdog · Dec 30, 2011

billybtennessee said:
Romans 11:26a. "And so all Israel shall be saved"

I know the views are many, and are varied. My reason is that 'perhaps' we may get a little understanding on what is commonly termed 'elect'.

We know that Israel was the chosen people of God, to receive salvation from Egypt, to receive the law, to be a chosen nation, to be the ones who the Messiah, Jesus Christ, would come through. I personally believe that there are yet prophecies, promises, regarding these people, to be fulfilled.

But, what about the statement in Romans 11;26, and regarding 'all' Israel?

Personally I do not desire debate on the various views. I want to gather input from others, and also scripture used in that input, to better understand any division regarding what the verse means. If personal attacks are made against any person or sect, I will report.

But please, share your views concerning, and also the scriptural reasons as to 'why'. Will, indeed, 'all' Israel be saved, and who and what is meant by 'all'? Thank you.

Romans 9:6:Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

If you read Ezra you can see how Israel took foreign wives,so they were not ALL Israel,so what they did was send those wives away.

If you read Ezra 9:1-2 and Ezra 10. as well as Nehemiah 10:28-30,Nehemiah 13:3,Nehemiah 13:27,Nehemiah 13:24

Israel mixed with foreign women and the children could speak in the language of both people.

4464 mamzer mam-zare' from an unused root meaning to alienate; a mongrel, i.e. born of a Jewish father and a heathen mother:--bastard.

Not all Israel was Israel,as Israel was chosen,yet they married foreign women and had mongrel children with them.

Romans 11:26:And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Was Jacob chosen over Esau?
Was Isaac chosen over Ishamael?
Was Ephraim chosen over Manasseh,even though Jacob said they were his,Ephraim was still chosen over his older brother.

From what I gather,all Israel will be saved as Jesus stated ''I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'' but the mixed breed Israelites that Israel had with foreign women are ''not all Israel''

If you read Deuteronomy 23:2:A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

I posted the definition above,from the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance...

Ezra 10:2 ''We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land''

Romans 11:26 ''and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob''

Jacob had his name changed to Israel.

Genesis 32:28:And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Hebrew ''Israel'' in Genesis 32:28 means..

3478 Yisra'el yis-raw-ale' from 8280 and 410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: --Israel.

''he will rule as God''

How can everyone be Israel if not everyone is Israel?

Perhaps you could read this....

http://www.israelect.com/reference/...Isaac' 'Jacob'&'Israel' Be Spiritualized~.pdf - CAN THE WORDS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, AND ISRAEL BE SPIRITUALIZED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

The above text is about 13 pages...

I'm not sure it makes sense but that is what I gather...

- Sleeping dog

Lion King · Dec 30, 2011

billybtennessee said:
So then, Israel is an 'elect' people, nation, but not 'all Israel will be saved', those of physical descent. Just a 'remnant'.

What does this example tell us regarding 'true Israel'? The one who is made up of both jew and gentile? Those in Jesus Christ?

This is how I see it:

"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:14-16

Jesus mentions He had other sheep (believing Gentiles), that were not part of the flock (believing Jews-Israel) that He must bring also, and there will be one flock (all Israel).

"And so all Israel will be saved"

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