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Sabbath rest, tithes and such

in1

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Actually yes. But I don't know what Btw means? Do you ask me this because you do not understand that the scriptures testify of Him. That Rest is the person of God. You sell all that you have to purchase this field as much as if you try to save your own soul you will lose it. That the tithe or tenth is of The Firstfruits, and is the same earnest of our inheritance that Paul speaks of, Christ in you. The Author of confusion is this tree between our ears.

John 16:16-18 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

I'm not writing this to be little you or anyone else that might read this. We are One, unless you do not believe what Jesus prayed is The Truth as it is in Christ. This Rest, this Kingdom of God is within, it's the tree of knowledge that makes Him into merchadise, both to you and me. Faith is a substance which word is translated person in the following verse.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Where you say the law is not quite what you have been told it was, it's effects or how ever you had stated about it. The duality of the two houses from heaven and earth, Cain and Abel etc. run through the entire Book to the last period. That which is within and that which is without. There are two of everything, Christ, anti-christ. The ear that hears and the ear that can not. Notice these two passages how the ear is that which does not hear.

Exo 32:1-4 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Jdg 8:24-27 And Gideon said unto them, I would desire a request of you, that ye would give me every man the earrings of his prey. (For they had golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites.) And they answered, We will willingly give them. And they spread a garment, and did cast therein every man the earrings of his prey. And the weight of the golden earrings that he requested was a thousand and seven hundred shekels of gold; beside ornaments, and collars, and purple raiment that was on the kings of Midian, and beside the chains that were about their camels' necks. And Gideon made an ephod thereof, and put it in his city, even in Ophrah: and all Israel went thither a whoring after it: which thing became a snare unto Gideon, and to his house.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

 
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Gxg (G²)

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This is another great aspect to the giving question. To me not so much whether one calls it a tithe or not.

Many people think that when they give in church that it goes solely for the pastor's salary and the lights. In some churches, perhaps this is true. It is why some people have given up on giving in church, and attempt instead to give directly to what they perceive as need -- whether that be charities or giving directly to a family in need.

If giving is occurring, then that's what the focus should be. Of course, even for those who may call something not a tithe, I think what many have often had issue with is that others can use the argument of "Call it GIVING, not a tithe!!!" to cover up where they don't really give at all---and that I've seen often. The scriptures command for us to give in proportion to what we have (II Corinthians 9)--and for many fighting over a 10% tithe, it can be bizzare when what they give is far from proportionate since they have it within their ability to be giving way beyond 10% anyway but don't do so and then say "Well, the poor are called to take care of themselves"...or "God doesn't want me to give under pressure" when they're actually presented with the needs of families within the church---despite what I John 2-4 notes with seeing those in need and not simply wishing them warm/well fed even if reaching out to them may take a bit.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Easy G (G²);59372425 said:
If giving is occurring, then that's what the focus should be. Of course, even for those who may call something not a tithe, I think what many have often had issue with is that others can use the argument of "Call it GIVING, not a tithe!!!" to cover up where they don't really give at all---and that I've seen often.
Ah, but you are tying the "don't call it a tithe" people to a pecular group: those who don't give. I "don't call it a tithe" and I give generously. Again, what you speak of here really isn't about whether we "call it a tithe" or not, but rather the heart of the giver (or non-giver).

Easy G (G²);59372425 said:
The scriptures command for us to give in proportion to what we have (II Corinthians 9)--and for many fighting over a 10% tithe, it can be bizzare when what they give is far from proportionate since they have it within their ability to be giving way beyond 10% anyway but don't do so and then say "Well, the poor are called to take care of themselves"...or "God doesn't want me to give under pressure" when they're actually presented with the needs of families within the church---despite what I John 2-4 notes with seeing those in need and not simply wishing them warm/well fed even if reaching out to them may take a bit.
What you speak to here is the person who simply does not want to give. This has little to do with "tithe."

Second thing that comes to mind when I read this, about the 10%, is what you quote about 'give in proportion to waht we have.' The verse is actually:
2 Corinthians 8:14
For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
We give (with a willing mind/desire) according to what we have, and not what we don't have. So what is it that we have and don't have.

Prior to accepting Christ I was an agnostic trying to be an atheist. That's neither here nor there, I guess, but in those days I racked up quite the debt -- to such a point that I owed more in minimum payments than I made at my meager job in a grocery store at the time. So tell me what I had then according to verse 14. Once I get saved, would you expect me to tithe of the $180 per week that I made when my agreements (my 'yes' be yes and my 'no' be no) would not get paid as agreed? I went through many a lunch at college not eating. I went through a few dinners that way too.

Is this the cry of a whiney baby who does not trust God to provide if I should give a tithe first -- or as a certain blonde headed female evangelists would have had me do: give my whole paycheck because I obviously was in deeper than 10% could really healp. (yes, I heard her say that once.)

And where does this person fit who does not teach the OT tithe, does not give an OT tithe, but yet has been blessed in miraculous ways to rise out of that mire I describe to be in quite the blessed position that I am. God provided for me; God still provides for me. And without the OT tithe God continues to provide day by day by day.

I apologize if I'm picking at your words too much here, G.

But I agree with you that there are many who simply do not want to give. And many of those who simply do not want to "give a free handout to the poor" (even though we are called to help the poor) because they think that such giving is a free handout.

And the last thought is this: what is the biblical poor? Is it those who do not have enough but want to climb out of that mire. Does it include those who don't have enough but are content to live on what is gifted to them? The former have my gift; the latter do not. I stand before you A Blessed Man.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Ah, but you are tying the "don't call it a tithe" people to a pecular group: those who don't give..
Not really tying it to a group anymore than saying that one saying "call it a tithe" must automatically be the best givers. The focus was simply discussing the other side of others often arguing about not calling something a tithe and yet not giving--just as those who say "call it tithe" may not really give in obediance as they may claim. No need to read more into a statement than what was stated, IMHO.

I "don't call it a tithe" and I give generously. Again, what you speak of here really isn't about whether we "call it a tithe" or not, but rather the heart of the giver (or non-giver).
Correct. The focus of "tithe vs NON-Tithe" often misses the point, IMHO, of whether or not we're even giving biblically and ensuring the body is taken care of...and for those struggling/in need of financial aid, money is money...whether one calls it a tithe or not. Coming from a background where financial struggle as a child of a single mother was a reality, it's hard not to think of some of the debates occurring between people as trivial when considering what would've happened if we simply did not recieve financial aid from people exicited to give--and giving consistently, regardless of whether that aid came from those who are for "tithing" or those who are not.


What you speak to here is the person who simply does not want to give. This has little to do with "tithe."
Would disagree slightly, as the person wanting to "tithe" is often within a camp where they're simply about consistent giving and seeking to place their finances where they see needs that may need to be met---and often times, just because they even use the language of tithe, they're blasted for not "giving biblically" even when their financial giving is impacting others positively. To me, that's a matter of judging another man's servant...and to be clear, I'm not saying you are doing this or others on the boards--but I was remembering many other places that go to war with any/every teacher and individual mentioning why they tithe/assuming they're not giving Biblically.....and yet no one can see their hearts, or the impact of their giving.

They're giving and blessing others....and if that is the case, I say leave it

Second thing that comes to mind when I read this, about the 10%, is what you quote about 'give in proportion to waht we have.' The verse is actually:
2 Corinthians 8:14
For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
We give (with a willing mind/desire) according to what we have, and not what we don't have. So what is it that we have and don't have.
Indeed

In one sense, God's people are to give everything to God (Matthew 19:21; Luke 12:15; 12:33; 14:33). One's loyalty and devotion cannot be shared between God and material possessions (Matthew 6:24). In another sense, we recognize that we really own nothing, that all things belongs to God and we are stewards of them. We may have possessions, but we are not to be possessive (1 Corinthians 7:30). From Acts (2:44-45; 4:32-35; 12:12) we conclude that the early Christians did not claim anything as their own, but neither did they sell everything they possessed. They would, from time to time, sell what they did not need to meet the needs of others, as needs arose. Paul makes it clear that people should give only what they have to give (2 Corinthians 8:12), and this according to one's ability and according to what he or she has purposed to give (2 Corinthians 8:3, 10-14).

If I (as a Devil's Advocate) were to argue against tithing, there could be a number of ways I could go about it and remain Biblical. As said before, the New Testament teaches us that giving for the church age is to be proportionate by the grace work or leading of God through the Spirit (2 Cor. 8:1-3, 7; 1 Cor. 16:2; 9:7). In keeping with this concept, when we turn to the New Testament we find no New Testament regulation or commandment which continues the tithe for New Testament believers. The word “tithe” is never used in the New Testament as a command or regulation for the church. In fact, it is used only of historical occurrences where it pertained to Israel under the Old Testament economy, but never in such a way it could imply this is the rule of life for the church.

In trying to show how tithing can be a negative, it can be said that many believers give their tenth and never even consider that they could (and perhaps should) be giving even more. Technically, to demand a tenth from all believers is disobedience to the principles set down in 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 because the tithe may become an unequal yoke. By that I mean it is a burden to some, and a limitation to greater giving by others according to the principles of equality and proportionate grace giving (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Please note the following:
(1) Giving ten percent for one man might be considered “sowing sparingly” if he was giving proportionately.

(2) Giving ten percent for another could be considered “sowing bountifully,” if he was giving proportionately.

(3) Giving ten percent for some would be giving beyond their ability and could be considered sacrificial giving, giving “according to what they do not have” (cf. 2 Cor. 8:12; 9:6).

(4) In essence this means some are being eased of their responsibilities because of their abundance and others afflicted by the tithe compulsion because of their lack (2 Cor. 8:13).

(5) Proportionate grace giving in the New Testament eliminates this and brings about what Paul calls “equality” (2 Cor. 8:14-15).

Prior to accepting Christ I was an agnostic trying to be an atheist. That's neither here nor there, I guess, but in those days I racked up quite the debt -- to such a point that I owed more in minimum payments than I made at my meager job in a grocery store at the time. So tell me what I had then according to verse 14. Once I get saved, would you expect me to tithe of the $180 per week that I made when my agreements (my 'yes' be yes and my 'no' be no) would not get paid as agreed? I went through many a lunch at college not eating. I went through a few dinners that way too.






Is this the cry of a whiney baby who does not trust God to provide if I should give a tithe first -- or as a certain blonde headed female evangelists would have had me do: give my whole paycheck because I obviously was in deeper than 10% could really healp. (yes, I heard her say that once.)
One, which evangelist are we discussing? I think I know who you're talking about, but I'm not certain..



Two, If discussing what occurred when it came to debt, that'd be a seperate issue altogether----for the reality is that when you have DEBT, the Biblically responsible thing to do is to take care of the areas where bad stewardship has led to financial ruin. I've seen it often where people will give ALOT in offering but not pay their rent----and then when the man with the yellow truck (Repo Man) comes by, they wish to call the pastor to ask for some money back or demand why the Lord didn't get them out...and to that, they simply were not taught about Biblical stewardship.


It doesn't honor the Lord to give and yet one doesn't do as the scriptures command by honoring prior financial agreements/not paying the bills. That is not within the category of what the scriptures discuss when it comes to giving in proportion to what one has, as that was spoken to an audience POST salvation/in a church that Paul had worked on for a very long time...and that was expected to be much further along than they were previously.

Thus, IMHO, it'd a GROSS error in mixing categories to compare the state of someone beginning their walk in the Lord (who has debt) with others who are more advanced and have higher responsibilities.

I like how the kats at Bible.org said it best in their review when it comes to mature believers and giving proportionately. In their view:
The big question is, what does it mean to give proportionately? How does one determine how much (what percent) to give? It is easy enough to figure ten percent of something, but how much is “as he purposes in his heart,” or “as he has been prospered,” or “may prosper,” or “if there is a readiness it is acceptable according to what a man has …” How much is that?
(1) It is not a specific amount, or a certain percent, but a proportion based on what one has, one’s own needs, and on the needs of others, including the work of Christ or the ministry of the local church.

(2) Those who have little may give the little they are able (2 Cor. 8:2-3).

(3) Those who have nothing, if there is a readiness, are not expected to give anything (2 Cor. 8:12).

(4) Those who have less than enough (genuine needs) are to receive from those who have more than enough so there is a balancing out, a kind of equality (2 Cor. 8:13-15). This is not socialism or communism which is coercive and seeks for a total equality that does away with any variations in society based on individual differences in hard work, in giftedness, and personal incentive (cf. 1 Tim. 6:17f).

(5) God is not asking those who have plenty to become poor or burdened that others may be made rich (2 Cor. 8:13). The equality envisioned here through proportionate giving is twofold: (a) It involves aid to help people through a condition of need until they are able to get on their feet financially by working (Eph. 4:28; 2 Thess. 3:10-15). We do not give so others can live in ease or have the same standard of living as everyone else. (b) This creates an equality in the sense that those with less give proportionately less and those with more give proportionately more and are able to carry more of the load in giving.

(6) Those who have an abundance are to be rich in good works; they are to use their abundance liberally in the cause of Christ (2 Cor. 8:14; 1 Tim. 5:17-18).

(7) Increased prosperity should not result in a higher and higher standard of living, or wasteful spending, but in an increase in giving, not only in the amount but in the percent given. If believers today were committed to proportionate giving, many would be giving far in excess of ten percent. Statistics show, however, that most believers give no more than 3-5 percent.
Definition of Proportionate Giving

Proportionate giving is giving in proportion to God’s blessing, as a steward who wants to invest his life in heavenly treasure. Proportionate giving does not mean just giving more, but giving a greater proportion of one’s income—a greater percentage invested in God’s work.
In Proportionate giving:
(1) OUR MOTIVE for giving is God’s spiritual blessing, to increase fruitfulness and bring glory to God (2 Cor. 9:8-15).

(2) OUR MEASURE for giving is God’s material blessing (1 Cor. 16:2).
Illustration of Proportionate Giving

Believer A has an income of $20,000 per year and he gives ten percent which is $2,000. Believer B has an income of $50,000 per year and he gives ten percent which is $5,000. Believer B has given $3,000 more per year but this is not proportionately more because Believer A has $18,000 left to live on and Believer B still has $45,000 left, over twice as much. Believer B could give 20 percent ($10,000) and still have $40,000 left to live on which is still over twice as much as Believer A. Believer B would then be giving not only more, but proportionately more as well.

And where does this person fit who does not teach the OT tithe, does not give an OT tithe, but yet has been blessed in miraculous ways to rise out of that mire I describe to be in quite the blessed position that I am. God provided for me; God still provides for me. And without the OT tithe God continues to provide day by day by day.
Then praise the Lord for you being blessed, as it's the HEART of the Giver/His or her obediance to what He is asking rather than the amount that the Lord is focused on.


I apologize if I'm picking at your words too much here, G.
Not a problem, apology accepted.


But I agree with you that there are many who simply do not want to give. And many of those who simply do not want to "give a free handout to the poor" (even though we are called to help the poor) because they think that such giving is a free handout.



And the last thought is this: what is the biblical poor? Is it those who do not have enough but want to climb out of that mire. Does it include those who don't have enough but are content to live on what is gifted to them? The former have my gift; the latter do not. I stand before you A Blessed Man
I'm always reminded of the Good Samaritan---and how the character of the man beaten on the road was NEVER a requirement for whether the Samaritan helped him or not, as the text never says....and it's amazing how we naturally ascribe goodness to the beaten up man/assume he "deserved" help since in our eyes he was "innocent"..but he could've easily been of bad character, perhaps on his way somewhere to rob someone else (or perhaps on his way to take out the two robbers who may've owned him money..and they got to him first). It's all speculation, of course...but ultimately, as Jesus made clear, the one who was a neighbor was the one who had MERCY--and that mercy had NOTHING to do with a Santa Claus mindset that rewards people based on whether they've been "naughty or nice." If that was the case for all believers that the Lord helped us when we helped ourselves/did good, no one would be saved at all. For the Lord came for us when we were on our WORST behavior (Titus 3:1-9)--and because of that, we're to follow suit.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Easy G (G²);59373197 said:
Not really tying it to a group anymore than saying that one saying "call it a tithe" must automatically be the best givers. The focus was simply discussing the other side of others often arguing about not calling something a tithe and yet not giving--just as those who say "call it tithe" may not really give in obediance as they may claim. No need to read more into a statement than what was stated, IMHO.

Correct. The focus of "tithe vs NON-Tithe" often misses the point, IMHO, of whether or not we're even giving biblically and ensuring the body is taken care of...and for those struggling/in need of financial aid, money is money...whether one calls it a tithe or not. Coming from a background where financial struggle as a child of a single mother was a reality, it's hard not to think of some of the debates occurring between people as trivial when considering what would've happened if we simply did not recieve financial aid from people exicited to give--and giving consistently, regardless of whether that aid came from those who are for "tithing" or those who are not.


Would disagree slightly, as the person wanting to "tithe" is often within a camp where they're simply about consistent giving and seeking to place their finances where they see needs that may need to be met---and often times, just because they even use the language of tithe, they're blasted for not "giving biblically" even when their financial giving is impacting others positively. To me, that's a matter of judging another man's servant...and to be clear, I'm not saying you are doing this or others on the boards--but I was remembering many other places that go to war with any/every teacher and individual mentioning why they tithe/assuming they're not giving Biblically.....and yet no one can see their hearts, or the impact of their giving.

They're giving and blessing others....and if that is the case, I say leave it

Indeed

In one sense, God's people are to give everything to God (Matthew 19:21; Luke 12:15; 12:33; 14:33). One's loyalty and devotion cannot be shared between God and material possessions (Matthew 6:24). In another sense, we recognize that we really own nothing, that all things belongs to God and we are stewards of them. We may have possessions, but we are not to be possessive (1 Corinthians 7:30). From Acts (2:44-45; 4:32-35; 12:12) we conclude that the early Christians did not claim anything as their own, but neither did they sell everything they possessed. They would, from time to time, sell what they did not need to meet the needs of others, as needs arose. Paul makes it clear that people should give only what they have to give (2 Corinthians 8:12), and this according to one's ability and according to what he or she has purposed to give (2 Corinthians 8:3, 10-14).

If I (as a Devil's Advocate) were to argue against tithing, there could be a number of ways I could go about it and remain Biblical. As said before, the New Testament teaches us that giving for the church age is to be proportionate by the grace work or leading of God through the Spirit (2 Cor. 8:1-3, 7; 1 Cor. 16:2; 9:7). In keeping with this concept, when we turn to the New Testament we find no New Testament regulation or commandment which continues the tithe for New Testament believers. The word “tithe” is never used in the New Testament as a command or regulation for the church. In fact, it is used only of historical occurrences where it pertained to Israel under the Old Testament economy, but never in such a way it could imply this is the rule of life for the church.

In trying to show how tithing can be a negative, it can be said that many believers give their tenth and never even consider that they could (and perhaps should) be giving even more. Technically, to demand a tenth from all believers is disobedience to the principles set down in 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 because the tithe may become an unequal yoke. By that I mean it is a burden to some, and a limitation to greater giving by others according to the principles of equality and proportionate grace giving (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Please note the following:
(1) Giving ten percent for one man might be considered “sowing sparingly” if he was giving proportionately.

(2) Giving ten percent for another could be considered “sowing bountifully,” if he was giving proportionately.

(3) Giving ten percent for some would be giving beyond their ability and could be considered sacrificial giving, giving “according to what they do not have” (cf. 2 Cor. 8:12; 9:6).

(4) In essence this means some are being eased of their responsibilities because of their abundance and others afflicted by the tithe compulsion because of their lack (2 Cor. 8:13).

(5) Proportionate grace giving in the New Testament eliminates this and brings about what Paul calls “equality” (2 Cor. 8:14-15).

One, which evangelist are we discussing? I think I know who you're talking about, but I'm not certain..



Two, If discussing what occurred when it came to debt, that'd be a seperate issue altogether----for the reality is that when you have DEBT, the Biblically responsible thing to do is to take care of the areas where bad stewardship has led to financial ruin. I've seen it often where people will give ALOT in offering but not pay their rent----and then when the man with the yellow truck (Repo Man) comes by, they wish to call the pastor to ask for some money back or demand why the Lord didn't get them out...and to that, they simply were not taught about Biblical stewardship.


It doesn't honor the Lord to give and yet one doesn't do as the scriptures command by honoring prior financial agreements/not paying the bills. That is not within the category of what the scriptures discuss when it comes to giving in proportion to what one has, as that was spoken to an audience POST salvation/in a church that Paul had worked on for a very long time...and that was expected to be much further along than they were previously.

Thus, IMHO, it'd a GROSS error in mixing categories to compare the state of someone beginning their walk in the Lord (who has debt) with others who are more advanced and have higher responsibilities.

I like how the kats at Bible.org said it best in their review when it comes to mature believers and giving proportionately. In their view:
The big question is, what does it mean to give proportionately? How does one determine how much (what percent) to give? It is easy enough to figure ten percent of something, but how much is “as he purposes in his heart,” or “as he has been prospered,” or “may prosper,” or “if there is a readiness it is acceptable according to what a man has …” How much is that?
(1) It is not a specific amount, or a certain percent, but a proportion based on what one has, one’s own needs, and on the needs of others, including the work of Christ or the ministry of the local church.

(2) Those who have little may give the little they are able (2 Cor. 8:2-3).

(3) Those who have nothing, if there is a readiness, are not expected to give anything (2 Cor. 8:12).

(4) Those who have less than enough (genuine needs) are to receive from those who have more than enough so there is a balancing out, a kind of equality (2 Cor. 8:13-15). This is not socialism or communism which is coercive and seeks for a total equality that does away with any variations in society based on individual differences in hard work, in giftedness, and personal incentive (cf. 1 Tim. 6:17f).

(5) God is not asking those who have plenty to become poor or burdened that others may be made rich (2 Cor. 8:13). The equality envisioned here through proportionate giving is twofold: (a) It involves aid to help people through a condition of need until they are able to get on their feet financially by working (Eph. 4:28; 2 Thess. 3:10-15). We do not give so others can live in ease or have the same standard of living as everyone else. (b) This creates an equality in the sense that those with less give proportionately less and those with more give proportionately more and are able to carry more of the load in giving.

(6) Those who have an abundance are to be rich in good works; they are to use their abundance liberally in the cause of Christ (2 Cor. 8:14; 1 Tim. 5:17-18).

(7) Increased prosperity should not result in a higher and higher standard of living, or wasteful spending, but in an increase in giving, not only in the amount but in the percent given. If believers today were committed to proportionate giving, many would be giving far in excess of ten percent. Statistics show, however, that most believers give no more than 3-5 percent.
Definition of Proportionate Giving

Proportionate giving is giving in proportion to God’s blessing, as a steward who wants to invest his life in heavenly treasure. Proportionate giving does not mean just giving more, but giving a greater proportion of one’s income—a greater percentage invested in God’s work.
In Proportionate giving:
(1) OUR MOTIVE for giving is God’s spiritual blessing, to increase fruitfulness and bring glory to God (2 Cor. 9:8-15).

(2) OUR MEASURE for giving is God’s material blessing (1 Cor. 16:2).
Illustration of Proportionate Giving

Believer A has an income of $20,000 per year and he gives ten percent which is $2,000. Believer B has an income of $50,000 per year and he gives ten percent which is $5,000. Believer B has given $3,000 more per year but this is not proportionately more because Believer A has $18,000 left to live on and Believer B still has $45,000 left, over twice as much. Believer B could give 20 percent ($10,000) and still have $40,000 left to live on which is still over twice as much as Believer A. Believer B would then be giving not only more, but proportionately more as well.

Then praise the Lord for you being blessed, as it's the HEART of the Giver/His or her obediance to what He is asking rather than the amount that the Lord is focused on.


Not a problem, apology accepted.


I'm always reminded of the Good Samaritan---and how the character of the man beaten on the road was NEVER a requirement for whether the Samaritan helped him or not, as the text never says....and it's amazing how we naturally ascribe goodness to the beaten up man/assume he "deserved" help since in our eyes he was "innocent"..but he could've easily been of bad character, perhaps on his way somewhere to rob someone else (or perhaps on his way to take out the two robbers who may've owned him money..and they got to him first). It's all speculation, of course...but ultimately, as Jesus made clear, the one who was a neighbor was the one who had MERCY--and that mercy had NOTHING to do with a Santa Claus mindset that rewards people based on whether they've been "naughty or nice." If that was the case for all believers that the Lord helped us when we helped ourselves/did good, no one would be saved at all. For the Lord came for us when we were on our WORST behavior (Titus 3:1-9)--and because of that, we're to follow suit.

This is an excellent post Easy, thank you for it. You give a very good overall view of the tithe question in my mind. I wish I could rep you more than once for this one!

As you state about the argument between tithe and no-tithe, the argument itself really misses the point. Which is why I don't (and wont) specifically teach for or against the tithe except in very general terms. It is much more an issue of readiness in the heart, than a particular percentage.

Regarding the end of your post, I agree. Worthiness is not a requirement for me to give to the poor. It is for others, but not for me. Mercy doesn't require worthiness; in fact, one could argue just the opposite. I know peole who wont give to those that hold the signs on street corners because they will say that this is there job, they are always there, and they could get a job if they really wanted. But to me, that is beside the point.

If a person lives a perfect life, they probably will not have serious financial need, not in this country anyway. They would have gone to school, and have a job. But who is perfect? Many of these people have made the kind of mistakes in their lives that have put them on the street. Many (not all, but many) probably have no work ethic, and couldn't hold a job if it was given them on a platter.

I have been a contractor for several years. Early on, I went to the local homeless shelter to find workers. I figured it was a great idea. They needed a job, I needed workers. But most wouldn't take the job, they didn't really want to work, and those that did, didn't have a work ethic, miseed days, or came in late, or hung over, or not at all. I could not count on them, and they got me into trouble with clients on more than one occasion. I gave up on hiring them, and just give them money when I see them.

For the most part, these people are severly damaged, to the point that they are incabable of really taking care of themselves. It is arrogance for me to sit back and think, well, if they really wanted to get ahead, they would get it together, get a job, and do what is right, and until they are willing to do that, I am not going to give to them. I disagree stongly with that perspective. I ahve mercy on them, even though they may not deserve it, or even know what to do with it. In the law, we were commanded to leave something in our fields for others to glean. I try to follow that principle.

After all, standing on a street corner is work, after a fashion. It certainly isn't easy. If one thinks it is, take the apportunity to go try it for yourself.

Peace...
 
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First, I want to re-up my apology that you've accepted. I read more into your earlier post than I should have.

Second, this post was a most excellent post indeed. Your points are well received and I pray that others who read them will stop, re-read and ponder on the meaning. The case in point that I want to emphasize from your post is summed up here:

Easy G (G²);59373197 said:
The focus of "tithe vs NON-Tithe" often misses the point, IMHO, of whether or not we're even giving biblically and ensuring the body is taken care of...and for those struggling/in need of financial aid, money is money...whether one calls it a tithe or not. Coming from a background where financial struggle as a child of a single mother was a reality, it's hard not to think of some of the debates occurring between people as trivial when considering what would've happened if we simply did not recieve financial aid from people exicited to give--and giving consistently, regardless of whether that aid came from those who are for "tithing" or those who are not.

...and here...

Easy G (G²);59373197 said:
In trying to show how tithing can be a negative, it can be said that many believers give their tenth and never even consider that they could (and perhaps should) be giving even more. Technically, to demand a tenth from all believers is disobedience to the principles set down in 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 because the tithe may become an unequal yoke. By that I mean it is a burden to some, and a limitation to greater giving by others according to the principles of equality and proportionate grace giving (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Please note the following:
(1) Giving ten percent for one man might be considered “sowing sparingly” if he was giving proportionately.

(2) Giving ten percent for another could be considered “sowing bountifully,” if he was giving proportionately.

(3) Giving ten percent for some would be giving beyond their ability and could be considered sacrificial giving, giving “according to what they do not have” (cf. 2 Cor. 8:12; 9:6).

(4) In essence this means some are being eased of their responsibilities because of their abundance and others afflicted by the tithe compulsion because of their lack (2 Cor. 8:13).

(5) Proportionate grace giving in the New Testament eliminates this and brings about what Paul calls “equality” (2 Cor. 8:14-15).

One, which evangelist are we discussing? I think I know who you're talking about, but I'm not certain..

...and here....

Easy G (G²);59373197 said:
I'm always reminded of the Good Samaritan---and how the character of the man beaten on the road was NEVER a requirement for whether the Samaritan helped him or not, as the text never says....and it's amazing how we naturally ascribe goodness to the beaten up man/assume he "deserved" help since in our eyes he was "innocent"..but he could've easily been of bad character, perhaps on his way somewhere to rob someone else (or perhaps on his way to take out the two robbers who may've owned him money..and they got to him first). It's all speculation, of course...but ultimately, as Jesus made clear, the one who was a neighbor was the one who had MERCY--and that mercy had NOTHING to do with a Santa Claus mindset that rewards people based on whether they've been "naughty or nice." If that was the case for all believers that the Lord helped us when we helped ourselves/did good, no one would be saved at all. For the Lord came for us when we were on our WORST behavior (Titus 3:1-9)--and because of that, we're to follow suit.

Many times we think that we need to only give our 10% into the offering b bucket and that's it. Then we can go play. We don't have to worry about the poor and the homeless, the orphans and widows -- because we already gave and the church should take care of that.

But WE are the church and WE are to go out and meet a need (or two, three, hundred...) Our giving does not stop when our offering goes 'clink' in the offering bucket. And the 10% mindset of the OT, to me and IMHO, lends to that type of spirit.

But I thank you G for elaborating on these points. This was great.
 
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This is an excellent post Easy, thank you for it. You give a very good overall view of the tithe question in my mind. I wish I could rep you more than once for this one!
Glad to know that the information blessed you and that it made sense what I was seeking to convey :) Where I stand, although I'm very much for tithing, non-tithers I'm good with too since one doesn't have to be a "tither" in order to be a Generous giver---the larger issue in the debates....and there seem to be excellent arguments for the subject on both sides when the focus is upon how one can grow in being a generous giver. It can be difficult expressing what it is that one feels when they're for tithing, yet also against it in certain forms/presentations (like arguing "believers MUST tithe according to the NT" or saying "10% was always the golden rule in the OT Tithe") and for the concept of PROPORTIONATE giving.
As you state about the argument between tithe and no-tithe, the argument itself really misses the point. Which is why I don't (and wont) specifically teach for or against the tithe except in very general terms. It is much more an issue of readiness in the heart, than a particular percentage.
Concerning the issue of readiness of the heart rather than a percentage, I've often been perplexed by how it seems that many will assume that any language of tithe (concerning the OT) was automatically a negative...yet when I read the OT, what I see consistently is the same theme of readiness of the heart, with the NT simply expounding on differing ways that the same focus was to play out in a New Covenant. The Lord was always concerned with readiness of the heart in His people/ensuring that all, regardless of their station, were ready to give.


I'm reminded on how within the OT being poor was never an excuse for laziness in thinking one had nothing to offer to God..or expecting only those who may be well-off to give/saying "Well, I can't right now." In example,
Then the Lord said to Moses, 'When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the Lord a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them. Each one who crosses over to those already counted is to give a half shekel, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the Lord. All who cross over, those twenty years old or more, are to give an offering to the Lord. The rich are not to give more than a half shekel and the poor are not to give less when you make the offering to the Lord to atone for your lives. Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the Tent of Meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord, making atonement for your lives.' (Exodus 30:11–16)
The scriptures are clear that every Israelite man and woman who was twenty years old or more had to give a half shekel to the Lord to atone for their lives. We're not told why atonement money was only required from people of that age group. We know that military service began at the age of twenty in Israel (Numbers 1:3), so perhaps God regarded twenty as the age of maturity and accountability. Neither is it certain how much a half shekel was worth in those days. Both the rich and the poor paid the same. That's unusual, because giving in the Old Testament was normally on a proportional basis. Tithing was proportional: those who earned more, gave more; those who earned less, gave less. But not so with the atonement money: that was the same for each person, and there was a reason for it.

Exodus 30:12 also says that if each person paid the atonement money, then no plague would come on them when they were numbered. That means that if they hadn't paid the atonement money (which symbolized them accepting the atoning work of Christ), a plague would have come upon them from the Lord....and there are other examples throughout the OT where even for those who didn't have anything to bring, God made clear that their neighbor was to GIVE them something to bring to Him

In a predominately agricultural society, of course flocks and herds were the main source of income to provide for others. The entire concept of Firstfruits is a reflectio of this...and it can already been seen in Genesis, concerning how Adam's sons were raised in the adominition of the Lord---and as God required/made clear, they were to offer up to Him. . Cain and Abel had constrasting occupations/differing kinds of offering to God----both being what God commanded since both offerings are recognizable parts of the later Levitical system: for Cain's offering of the fruit of the ground is in Deuteronomy 26:2 (an offering expressing consecration), and for Abel's offering of the firstborn of his flock, that can be found in Deuteronomy 15:19-23 (a kind of peace offering, a meal in God's prescence).

The dangers that came with poverty make the Old Testament commands all the more compelling, setting up generosity toward the poor and needy as the sign for obedience throughout one’s life. Even more, the New Testament demands that care for the poor be present in the life of every believer—the “materially poor” ever so much as the “spiritually poor” (Deuteronomy 16:12-13; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 John 3:16-18; James 1:27; etc).

In the ancient Near East poverty brought truly terrible consequences. There was no welfare system in place to take care of the poor—to be a pauper, a widow or an orphan meant that one was primarily dependent on the charity of others for economic provision (see The IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, 101). Widows could not inherit their husbands’ property; orphans would be guaranteed no inheritance; and those without land lacked both an agricultural source of income and an inheritance to pass on to their children. This economic powerlessness often resulted in more complex social and political problems for the poor. Because many cultures in the ancient Near East followed the class system, the poor could be treated unfairly with little consequence, especially in matters of justice (see The IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, 102).


There is evidence that ancient Near Eastern law codes required rulers to exercise equity and justice toward the poor and to encourage economic assistance to alleviate their financial burdens. Some of these laws are similar to laws in the Old Testament (see The IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, 101-102). Without question, the poor of the ancient world were a group in need of protection and charity.

Just as in other ancient Near Eastern societies, being poor in Israel could be socially and economically disabling. But there was one critical difference: The God of Israel had such affection for the poor that he directly identified with them and required all others to provide for their needs and to give them justice (Psalm 12:5; 34:6; Proverbs 14:31; 19:17). The plight of the poor is one of the issues that matters most to God, and his Law made truly astounding provisions to help them, not the least of which were economic protections:

  • Gleanings and Harvests: The corners of fields and the grapes dropped by the workers were reserved for the poor (Deuteronomy 24:17; Leviticus 19:9-10). The poor were also allowed to eat from land that lay fallow or idle in the Sabbath years (Leviticus 25:1-7; Deuteronomy 15:1-11).
  • Protection from Creditors: Creditors could not charge interest or keep garments (which provided warmth and doubled as one’s blanket at night), nor could they take the tools of a man’s trade as security for a loan. These provisions ensured people’s ability to earn a living and also prevented extreme hardships (Exodus 22:25-27; Deuteronomy 24:12-13).
  • Right to Timely Wages: The poor worker, whether a stranger or brother, was to receive his wages on the day of his labor, all the more so if he had need of it immediately (Leviticus 19:13; Deuteronomy 24:14-15).
  • Year of Jubilee: Once every 50 years, Jubilee provided a comprehensive program of debt cancellation, liberation from indentured servitude, and the complete restoration of each family’s ancestral property, granting the poor a fresh start (Leviticus 25:8-22).
  • Kinsman Redeemer: Family members were to help each other repurchase their land if they fell into debt and lost it (Leviticus 25:23-34). Family members could also purchase freedom for one another if they were forced into slavery to meet financial needs (Leviticus 25:47-55). Widows could also be saved from their plight by kinsman redeemers, as in the case of Boaz’s aid to Ruth and her mother-in-law Naomi (Ruth 4:1-10).
God’s law also gave the poor unprecedented social protections:


  • Justice: Old Testament law prohibited judges to show partiality to the rich at the expense of the economically disadvantaged and oppressed (Exodus 23:1-9; Leviticus 19:15; Deuteronomy 24:17; Proverbs 31:4-9). The Lord declared that defending the cause of the needy and treating the poor with justice is the essence of what it means to know him (Jeremiah 22:16). Accordingly, the prophet Amos condemned the Israelites’ social injustice toward the poor as a violation of God’s law and priorities
  • Levirate Marriage: Women who became widows with no male heirs had the right to gain an heir by their husbands’ brothers, thereby securing a son to care for them in their old age (Deuteronomy 25:5-10).
Finally, God’s law made special provision for the poor’s inclusion in community worship:

  • The Right to Rest: Servants, slaves, strangers and even animals were to participate in the Sabbath (Deuteronomy 5:1-15).
  • Scaled Prices for Sacrifices and Offerings: Poor people who could not afford to present costly sacrifices and offerings were allowed to sacrifice less costly sacrifices that they could afford (Leviticus 5:7, 11; 14:21).
  • The Tithe: One of the tithes was collected with a particular command to include aliens, the fatherless, widows and other poor people in a yearly community feast and celebration (Deuteronomy 14:22-29).
These laws---the system of tithing included--- and others illustrate God’s deep concern for the poor. Ignoring or taking advantage of them brought God’s wrath (Exodus 22:22-24; Job 31:21-23). Care for the poor was such a serious matter that God viewed giving to the poor as the indispensable sign of obedience to his law (Deuteronomy 16:12-13), and when Israel failed to do so they suffered God’s judgment (Isaiah 1:15-17; Jeremiah 5:28-29). ....and thus, if I were to be a Devil's Advocate for arguing Pro-Tithing, I'd say that arguing about how the LAW is no longer madatory for us is fultile when ignoring the entire principle behind why the laws were set up in the first place. If others are seeing people in need in their community and trying to aid them through giving a tithe or learning from the principles in tithing, then its ignorant to focus on the LETTER of the LAW and yet forget the intent.


It can be said that arguing against tithing as many often do absolutely doesn't erase the principle that God expects those entrusted with much to give much. Its why he had a system set up where the POOR, widows and foreigners could be provided for by others continually giving of produce to feed them.

Jesus Christ amplified generosity to the poor as an indispensable sign of obedience to the Lord. From the beginning of his ministry, Jesus displayed his identification with and concern for the poor and oppressed (Matthew 6:3; 11:12-5; Mark 10:21; Luke 4:18-19; 6:20; 10:25-37; 12:32-34; 14:12-14; 16:19-31; 18:22-24; 19:1-10). He even presented care for needy brothers and sisters as the sign that we know God and are saved (Matthew 25:31-46). Make no mistake: Jesus was serious about caring for the poor, and he requires that we obey him.

Following Jesus’ example, the apostles also cast a strong vision of caring for the poor. One of the great concerns of Paul’s ministry was to raise funds for poor Christians in Jerusalem (Romans 15:25-29; Galatians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 8-9). But his concern for the poor was also true more generally: In 2 Corinthians 8-9 he develops an extended argument that calls Christians who have in abundance to give to those who do not have enough. The result of such generosity is an increase in thanksgiving toward God and in rewards from his hand (2 Corinthians 9:11).

James also has a great deal to say about giving to the poor and needy: When he describes “dead” faith, he describes a person who does not provide food and clothing for a brother or sister in need (James 2:14-17). He also gives ominous warnings for the rich and those who show them special favor over the poor (James 2:1-7; 5:1-6). In contrast, pure religion consists in caring for the widows and orphans (James 1:27). If we love God, we will give to the needy, for it will be as though we have given to Jesus himself (1 John 3:16-18; Matthew 25:31-46).

The consistent scriptural theme of caring for the poor should jar us to purposeful and sacrificial acts of compassion toward those who are in need. Nearly one-half of the New Testament’s positive examples of giving are gifts toward the poor. The Bible could not be clearer about the responsibility of believers to obey in this area: Giving toward the poor and needy is an indispensable part of following Jesus.

Even for those claiming that "tithing isn't mandatory", sometimes the arguments given ignore the issue of how those who've been transformed by the Power of God/Grace of THE HOLY SPirit should not even be having this dialouge since it'd be within them to give above/beyond what those in the OT were required to do BY LAW. Galatians 5:13-15 and Galatians 5:6 makes this abundantly clear when it comes to making clear that our faith works itself out in LOVE/CONCERN for one another......and that our liberty in Christ is not one where we're free to sin.

Rather, we're freed to love/provide for others as Christ did for us----as He reminded all of what the LAW's purpose was/pointed to when it came to the Greatest Commandments (Matthew 22:39). With tithing, though mandatory under the OT (and for a RIGHTEOUS purpose), we've been given much more....and consequently, having to have a mandatory system set is not necessary since the spirit of GIVING FREELY/100% where there's need should be evident in those transformed by God's Spirit.
 
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I don't (and wont) specifically teach for or against the tithe except in very general terms. It is much more an issue of readiness in the heart, than a particular percentage.
.
Understanding the purpose behind the Law can, IMHO, put alot of things deemed to be issues with tithing to rest.

If understanding the concept of how the Law functions like a Constitution and goes through changes--with certain parts applying for a time and then becoming void when a new part of the Law becomes accessed, it helps greatly in understanding how it flows. When God said "Thou Shall Not Murder", that is something that never changed. However, the legal system for dealing with that law did transform in the NT...as well as the means by which one could fulfill that command since the LAW in the OT could never give any kind of hope to others in actually being able to keep it fully without the power of the Holy Spirit.


Another example of where the Law has transformed is within the area of the Temple. One must keep the concept of transformation in view if discussing the Temple in the OT and what the NEW Covenant describes for us...as well as all of the activities occuring in the old temple that occur for us as well differently in the new.


In example, when it comes to what God said with Moses when it came to his commanding the Israelities to give sacrifices to Him..animal ones as well as grain ones, it should be understood that the sacrifices have changed, of course, in the NT (Romans 12:1-3, Hebrews 13:15)--just as it has been with the temple changing in its format.....though of course, some say that the temple will come back according to Ezekiel 39-44 and Zechariah 6....and that's worth considering.

In Hebrews 13:8, for example, the sacrifices were considered to be "praise" we give to the Lord---in remembrance of Leviticus 7:12 and Psalm 50:14 and what the scriptures say in I Peter 2:5 about us now being priests/God's new design (temple included)...and in context with the Book, the Jews following Christ were being persecuted at one point due to their faith and distancing from aspects in Judaism. If these Jewish Christians, because of their witness to the Messiah, could no longer worship with other Jews, they could consider praise their sacrifice----one they could offer anywhere and anytime.

This must have reminded them of the prophet Hosea's words, "Take away all of their inquity and recieve us graciously so we will render the calvesof our lips" (Hosea 14:2). A sacrifice of praise today would include thanking CHrist for His sacrifice on the Cross and telling others about it....and as Paul mentioned in Romans 12:1-3, our lives are now to be a living sacrifice. These Christians could now be encouraged in their Jewishness, despite how Hebrews 10:32-39 describes the massive persecution that the Hebraic Christians were facing ...



I think the subject was said best by David H.Stern, the author of The Jewish New Testament Commentary: A Companion Volume to the Jewish New Testament . As said best in his commentary on Hebrews 10:
Notice that God does not take away the Torah; rathe, he takes away the first system of sacrifices and priesthood in order to set up the second within the framework of the one eternal Torah.

Moreover, it is not neccessary to suppose that this "taking away" prohibts all animal sacrifices by the Levitical priesthood. The author's point relates only to the sin offerings: "an offering of sins is no longer needed" because the second sin offering system is effectual in a way the first never was..and the other animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood could be continued without eclipsing the preeminent role of Yeshua's once-for-all sacrifice and eternal high-priesthood..


Even the sin-offering ritual could be continued, but only if it were regarded as a memorial and not as effective in itself. Just as it was never more than a "shadow", so now, if it should be resumed (which would presuppose the rebuilding of the Temple at some future time), it could not be more than a reminder of the great deliverance provided in Yeshua's death as our final and permanently effective sin offering and his resurrection as our chohen gadol.

Having God's Torah written on one's heart and mind necessarily implies that God has forgiven one's sins, so that an offering for sins is no longer needed. Therefore, readers of this sermon should free themselves from their compulsion to offer animal sacrifices as sin offerings and instead be fully assured of the sufficiency of Yeshua's sacrifice of himself on their behalf. We moderns have no such compulsion, but we too should be convinced of the necessity of blood sacrifice for sin while having assurance that Yeshuas blood sacrifice fulfills the requirement. With this, the author's major argument is completed.


But the authort is very specific in limiting what he says. An offering for sins is no longer needed and ruled out. But the other sacrificial offerings remain part of God's order even after Yeshua's death, as proven by Sha'ul's activity in the temple at Acts 21:25-27/ Acts 21 and his own offering of sacrifices which he himself speaks of at Acts 24:16-18 /Acts 24.



With the destruction of the temple, sacrifical offerings became impossible; but if the temple is rebuilt, thank offerings, meal offerings, and praise offerings may be offered once again. The author of this letter does not proclaim the end of the sacrifical system in its entirety, only the end of animal sacrifices for sin.
Also, as said by David.H Stern,
Some branches of Christianity teach that the ethical Law remains, while the civil/ceremonial statutes have been done away with. For Gentiles, this may seem a satisfactory solution to the problem of Torah...but for Jewish believers it isn't so simple as that....all supposed abrogations can be otherwise explained within the Jewish framework for understanding Torah. Some rules were transformed by their fulfillment...a process already found in the Tanak, for example, when the Tabernacle was superceded by the Temple. In the New Testament, Yeshua's own sacrifical death fulfilled the function of temple sacrifice foe sin and either superceded it or changed it into a memorial...as explained in Hebrews 7:11-13 Hebrews 7 . Other rules were not abrogated but were re-priortized----the obvious instance in the book of Galatians on kashrut. The Biblical Holidays were not abolished but were given new significance for those already ( Matthew 26:28 /John 7:38)....
Of course, some again say "Well, if things change, what about Ezekiel in their reference to sacrifices/temple??"---and I would agree that there is something worth noting on that. As noted in Ezekiel 45:21, Ezekiel 45:22 and Ezekiel 45:24, THE TEMPLE and sacrifices seem to continue---but having that is in no way akin to one having to make sacrifices as if one has to go back/atone all over again as it was in the time before Christ...the original way in which sacrifices occurred.

Just as the BIBLICAL Festivals and Holidays take on a new signficance, as well as grain offerings and other things that were even done by believers in the NT, so it is with the sin offerings. In the millennial kingdom, the Levitical priesthood will be restored, with the unfaithful line of priests (Ezekiel 44:10-14) replaced by the faithful sons of Zadok (Ezekiel 44:15-27). Worship will be centered around the magnificent temple described by Ezekiel (chapters 40-43). The five Levitical offerings will be reinstituted (Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13; 43:18-27; 45:13-20; 46:12); however, the Prince will offer these sacrifices for the nation (Ezekiel 45:17). These sacrifices will serve as a memorial, much like the Lord’s Table does for Christians today.

Some of the feast days will also be observed (Ezekiel 45:21-25). Worship will not be restricted to the nation Israel, but will include all nations (Zechariah 14:16). In short, worship in the Millennium will be somewhat of a restoration of the worship under the Law, except that Israel’s Prince will be present and the observances will no longer be anticipatory, but rather, memorials. Jerusalem and the Temple will be the center of worship, with Christ reigning as King and Priest, the object of worship.


Praying that what I stated made sense. I think the same concept of transformation in application also applies to the subject of the tithe as it concerns the Levitical system it was set up in and how it was for supporting those in leadership (priests), the destitute and the poor. Though the legal system can no longer be continued, the SPIRIT of the tithe is still very much present as it concerns looking out for others. The word “tithe” comes from an Old English root meaning “one tenth.”

But even in Old Testament times, 10 percent was never the “basic standard” or “starting point” for faithful giving. The law actually called for three different tithes, adding up to 23.3 percent of a family’s income. In addition, the law anticipated an array of other obligatory sacrifices and freewill offerings (e.g., Leviticus 1-7). This should bring us pause. If the Israelites—who had not been given the gift of the Holy Spirit—were called to give such a significant portion of their incomes in grateful obedience to the God who saved them, what can we say of our commitment to Christ today when we, as Christians in an age of unprecedented prosperity, aim for 10 percent? Regardless of whether we are rich or poor, gainfully employed or buried in debt, the command to love God without reservation is the ultimate standard that should gauge our giving. And our model is God himself: “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all” (Romans 8:32).

Concerning those who did tithe, apparently, it was only those who owned property in the promised land would have tithed. Since Old Testament Israel was an agricultural economy, the tithe applied only to crops and livestock (Leviticus 27:30-32; Deuteronomy 14:22; 26:1-2), not to all Judeo-Christian income in any time and place. People who did not own land in Israel could not produce their own crops and livestock from which to tithe and, therefore, were not expected to give in the form of a tithe. They were, however, called to give in other ways (see Leviticus 1-7). Other passages to investigate on the issue would be Leviticus 1-7, Numbers 18:8-32, Deuteronomy 14:26-29 amd Deuteronomy 26:9-13.


Concerning the usage of the three tithes, the three tithes in the Old Testament were used in three ways: (1) To support the full-time religious workers. This tithe was given to the Levites, who had no inheritance in the land (Numbers 18:8-32). In turn, the Levites were commanded to give a tenth of this tithe to the priests who had no other means of income (Numbers 18:26-28). (2) To provide a community meal for fellowship and celebration of God’s goodness. This tithe of crops and livestock was to be shared in joy with family and community including the poor and especially the Levites (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). (3) To help the poor. This tithe, given every third year, went to the local storehouses to be distributed not just to the Levites but also to the poor and marginalized: the aliens, fatherless and widows (Deuteronomy 14:28-29).

Though the legal dynamics have changed due to a transformation of the Levitical Priesthood/its relevance as well as the OT System, these giving priorities teach us that it is impossible to love God wholeheartedly unless we consider the needs of others to be as important as our own....and know of how to practically take care of them in a consistent manner. Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of greater giving, but it was and still is possible to tithe faithfully yet fail to give generously (Matthew 23:23). For the New Testament praises people who voluntarily express love for God and neighbor by giving at great cost to themselves (Mark 12:33-44; 2 Corinthians 8:1-7). “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8:9).

And witthin the early church, the system of tithing (under the theocracy) was excedded by those who were generous givers...and as Jews, they would not have forgotten the strict commands by the Lord to give. For a good source of info on the issue, one can go online here and The Ancient Rise and Recent Fall of Tithing | Christian History. To my knowledge, the early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests...but with all of the changes that had gone down over the centuries with Judaism and the concept of the rabbi taking over that of the priest concept in many ways, the emphasis of tithing shifted. What occurred was that they simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love---and excelled in the NEW Covenant when the boundaries were expanded further. The Eastern Church began tithing out of obligation because they believed Jesus' conversation with the rich young man demanded sacrificial generosity. Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus pleaded with the church to surpass even the Old Testament tithe since Christ had freed them from the Law. Later church fathers—John Chrysostom, Cyprian, Origen, and Augustine among them—complained from time to time that their followers lacked Christian charity. Chrysostom even shamed his stingy church for marveling at those who tithed. He contrasted their amazement with the dutiful giving of Old Testament Jews.

Many other things besides that...but those are just some extra thoughts. Shalom :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Regarding the end of your post, I agree. Worthiness is not a requirement for me to give to the poor. It is for others, but not for me. Mercy doesn't require worthiness; in fact, one could argue just the opposite. I know peole who wont give to those that hold the signs on street corners because they will say that this is there job, they are always there, and they could get a job if they really wanted. But to me, that is beside the point.

If a person lives a perfect life, they probably will not have serious financial need, not in this country anyway. They would have gone to school, and have a job. But who is perfect? Many of these people have made the kind of mistakes in their lives that have put them on the street. Many (not all, but many) probably have no work ethic, and couldn't hold a job if it was given them on a platter.

I have been a contractor for several years. Early on, I went to the local homeless shelter to find workers. I figured it was a great idea. They needed a job, I needed workers. But most wouldn't take the job, they didn't really want to work, and those that did, didn't have a work ethic, miseed days, or came in late, or hung over, or not at all. I could not count on them, and they got me into trouble with clients on more than one occasion. I gave up on hiring them, and just give them money when I see them.

For the most part, these people are severly damaged, to the point that they are incabable of really taking care of themselves. It is arrogance for me to sit back and think, well, if they really wanted to get ahead, they would get it together, get a job, and do what is right, and until they are willing to do that, I am not going to give to them. I disagree stongly with that perspective. I ahve mercy on them, even though they may not deserve it, or even know what to do with it

So true, in regards to what you noted.....for the reality is that many who are homeless are very dysfunctional/don't know how to be stable even if told they need to be. And in many ways, some of them are actually mentally unstable. It's a matter of pity to actually seek to aid them despite themselves, while there are also moments (inspired by the Lord) where someone may need to challenge them when they see the need and have the means of helping them out. In saying that, of course it's not intended to say all who're homeless are within the same category since others who've come out are ones saying they made no excuses for themselves. But everyone's different and it may truly be a case-by-case basis.

Ultimately, we must be careful of the state of our own hearts when it comes to the willingness to show mercy UNDESERVED...

In the law, we were commanded to leave something in our fields for others to glean. I try to follow that principle.
Amazing principle that the Lord had set up in order to ensure that his people were provided for. As often as people say "Jesus said the poor will be with you always" ( Matthew 26:10-12 , Mark 14:6-8, John 12:7-9, etc ) in the attempt to justify not helping the poor since they feel that attendance to fellowship/prayer and letting others help themselves is what is expected scripturally, I'm surprised to see how they don't understand that Christ was speaking in reference ot how it was necessary at that time to focus on Him/anoint him as that woman did---and his statements were never to be taken as a comment on the poor not being a concern since they'll just happen to be there without end. Additionally, on the "poor with you always" phrase, others don't know of how that phrase actually occurred in the LAW first:

Deuteronomy 15:11
6 For the LORD your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.

7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 1

There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.
Deuteronomy 15:10-12

The disciples were concerned with giving to the poor (John 13:28-30 )--and with Yeshua, taking care of the poor was never a small issue. For there was always a need that was going to require others to be ready in meeting it.

After all, standing on a street corner is work, after a fashion. It certainly isn't easy. If one thinks it is, take the apportunity to go try it for yourself.

Peace...
Real talk. Reminds me of what occurred in Acts 3:1-3 / Acts 3 with the man that was healed..

Thanks for sharing :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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First, I want to re-up my apology that you've accepted. I read more into your earlier post than I should have.
.
All good, Bruh--and again, apology accepted. Thanks for offering it..:)
Second, this post was a most excellent post indeed. Your points are well received and I pray that others who read them will stop, re-read and ponder on the meaning.
However it blesses others, I pray they're blessed...




Many times we think that we need to only give our 10% into the offering b bucket and that's it. Then we can go play. We don't have to worry about the poor and the homeless, the orphans and widows -- because we already gave and the church should take care of that.
I'd think it be prudent to point out that many churches have EXCELLENT programs reaching out to the poor/homeless...and although those things should be done by believers individually, it's always a blessing whenever we're able to connect with ministries/programs that are known for getting the jobs done vicariously....

But WE are the church and WE are to go out and meet a need (or two, three, hundred...) Our giving does not stop when our offering goes 'clink' in the offering bucket. And the 10% mindset of the OT, to me and IMHO, lends to that type of spirit.
More than understand. For myself, I'd say that it can lead rather than it does lead ..and that's said in light of how many churches discussing 10% do so while also discussing giving above/beyond that and those churches have many members who are amazing givers...and very gracious.
.But I thank you G for elaborating on these points. This was great
Glad it blessed ya, Bruh:)
 
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in1

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ABlessedman, thank you for your concern, you needn't be though, what you call gibberish is found through out scripture, two kinds of righteousness, two kinds of vines, the house of Saul, the house of David.

Jas 3:13-18 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hpocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


 
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mercy1061

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Nor am I. Although I do think the word 'tithe' means what it means, and that is "a tenth."


Where does Hebrews say this? I find it said of Melchizedek here:
Hebrews 7:8 (Amplified)
Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].
And since Mel is not Jesus but a shadow of Jesus (as Jesus is a high priest in the order of Melchizedek) we can't have that confusion. (Copeland goes as far as to state that ancient Jewish writings identify Melchizedek as Shem, but that jury is still out.)


And finally, the word sabbath. It most certainly is a day of rest. In Hebrew it means rest (or intermission). It is the Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week.

What you mention here is the sabbath rest. We are to enter into "the rest." Which rest? The sabbath rest. It is specifically the rest when our work is done. God rested on the seventh day (Heb 4:4). Likewise we, who believe, are to enter into His rest (Heb 4:3). We are to labor to enter into that rest (Heb 4:11).

The point being that the sabbath is still one day, it hasn't changed (nor has the tithe). It is the picture of what we are to achieve: the rest. Ours will be complete and not just one day, but always. (Similarly, the tithe is a picture of what we should obtain: it was 1/10 of the whole of giving that we should enjoy.)

You know me...picky, picky, picky. :) Ok...your turn.

Blessedman how do you like Arizona? How is the weather in December?

What about the tithe being in it's original form? If the holy tithe was in it's original form it would only be used to feed the poor; in fact this was the purpose for the store house. Yeshua the lawkeeper says the wicked or "goats" did not feed him when he was hungry (Matt 25).
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Blessedman how do you like Arizona? How is the weather in December?

What about the tithe being in it's original form? If the holy tithe was in it's original form it would only be used to feed the poor; in fact this was the purpose for the store house. Yeshua the lawkeeper says the wicked or "goats" did not feed him when he was hungry (Matt 25).
Arizona is in the low 60's, sunny and no sign of snow (here in the Phoenix valley). Very pleasant in the winter. In summer though...

Now, could you show me in scripture where the [OT] tithe is to be used for the poor?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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What about the tithe being in it's original form? If the holy tithe was in it's original form it would only be used to feed the poor; in fact this was the purpose for the store house. Yeshua the lawkeeper says the wicked or "goats" did not feed him when he was hungry (Matt 25).

Interestingly enough, there are actually some people that do just that. In remembrance of what was noted about distributing one of the three tithtes to the poor and marginalized: the aliens, fatherless and widows (Deuteronomy 14:28-29), they actually grow food to feed others...as throwing money at a situation often doesn't prove to be effective in meeting the needs of others. Historically, others sought to put that principle (alongside faith) into practice--such as men of faith like George Washington Carver (who was discussed more in-depth here in one of the older discussions). Additionally, there is one organization known as Sustainable Traditions which is very big about showing faith/the power of the Lord via what we choose to grow...and how we go about growing that.:)

Although the focus is more so upon money whenever discussion of tithing comes up, IMHO, I'd tend to think that it'd have more relevance for others who have either bought a farm so that they can raise herds and grow crops...or those who grew up within the farming lifestyle/understand the importance of crops.
 
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mercy1061

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Arizona is in the low 60's, sunny and no sign of snow (here in the Phoenix valley). Very pleasant in the winter. In summer though...

Now, could you show me in scripture where the [OT] tithe is to be used for the poor?

Well the priests in those days would be considered poor, since they had no means to provide meat or crops for themselves. The priests did not receive any inheritance, and as a result depended on the brothren to feed them. In fact, each tribe received a greater portion in the promise land, because the levites portion came from Yahweh.
 
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mercy1061

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Interestingly enough, there are actually some people that do just that. In remembrance of what was noted about distributing one of the three tithtes to the poor and marginalized: the aliens, fatherless and widows (Deuteronomy 14:28-29), they actually grow food to feed others...

Sabbath rest was a place that Israel had to "enter" therein; after Israel "entered" that holy place, they were promised to receive rest from all their enemies. After Israel received rest from all of their enemies in that holy place, they paid tithes from that holy land after the land drank rain from heaven. Abraham gave a tenth of all the spoils from war to Melchisedec; King of righteousness and High Priest of Yahweh......

How did Abraham pay the holy tithe to a High Priest whose temple and kingdom is located in heaven? (Heb 7:9)

as throwing money at a situation often doesn't prove to be effective in meeting the needs of others. Historically, others sought to put that principle (alongside faith) into practice--such as men of faith like George Washington Carver (who was discussed more in-depth in one of the older discussions). Additionally, there is one organization known as which is very big about showing faith/the power of the Lord via what we choose to grow...and how we go about growing that.
Ecc 10:19

A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.

If a man had to travel to far to carry the holy tithe, he could exhange his tithe for money, then when he reaches that holy place; he could purchase whatever his soul lusteth after, sheep, oxen, wine, strong drink to celebrate with his own household and of course the levites. I am sure the levites were glad when this man reached that holy place to celebrate (Deut 14).

Although the focus is more so upon money whenever discussion of tithing comes up, IMHO, I'd tend to think that it'd have more relevance for others who have either bought a farm so that they can raise herds and grow crops...or those who grew up within the farming lifestyle/understand the importance of crops.
The tithe is holy; the Sabbath is holy....

Israel ate manna for six days, Israel received a portion of manna for 5 days from heaven; a double portion of manna on the 6th day. The 6th day's manna was the only manna that lasted until the next day. In those days, when Israel ate holy manna from heaven she did not pay the holy tithe.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Well the priests in those days would be considered poor, since they had no means to provide meat or crops for themselves. The priests did not receive any inheritance, and as a result depended on the brothren to feed them. In fact, each tribe received a greater portion in the promise land, because the levites portion came from Yahweh.
Well, the lack of ownership or inheritance of the priests is not what I was looking for. The tithe was partially designed to feed the priests and give them some useful items (wines, oils, herbs, etc.), for after all the Levites would tithe 10% to the Aaronic priests and eat of the majority.

As far as the poor, their needs were furnished from offerings, which were stored up in the storehouses in the local towns.
 
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dustyf

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Much is assumed about tithing from Malachi, I think even because it is located in the Bible just before Matthew. It was written 450 years before Jesus.

Have you ever noticed how many times in the short writing of Malachi the Lord asks, "Why shall I accept your offering?" There are seven. So the book was not written to or about people who were not givers of offerings. Under Jewish tradition giving was not done until after tithes were paid, these tenths totaled 30% or more at times. Check the reasons He said He would not accept the offerings, it was because of matters of the heart.

We have thought Jehovah considered Himself robbed because money, etc. was not paid. If these guys were not paying He would have said so. Look at the last chapter and He says they robbed Him of their relationship with Him. This is confirmed by their behavior.

Now for the kicker, if He considered Himself robbed by those who obeyed in action only and the heart was far from Him and they were paying tithes, how were they cursed. Not because they did not pay but because they DID pay!!

Since the temple was destroyed and paying tithes involved the temple, the Jews were faced with a dilemma, with it gone beginning in 70AD, how is the paying of tithes to be fulfilled? The high priest of the time made a decree saying paying tithes could be fulfilled by acts of Tsedakah, righteousness. Acts of kindness prompted by the relationship with Father toward others who were in need. They were to meet the needs of others out of their increase. I bring this up because none of this looks like what the church proclaims as doctrine for tithing today. I know the church needs financial support but this subject causes more guilt than freedom and joy in giving.

Now, the only testimony I have ever heard concerning pay 10% of a persons income was the 90% seemed to go further. Huh? Is that the promised open windows and need of room to contain the blessing for the obedient? If we don't see the manifested promise of obedience for whatever arena we should check ourselves.

I think the bottom line for those who don't give is fear, maybe greed. For sure it is a heart issue which He is willing to heal and deliver wholeness, spirit, soul and body. Most of the "blessing" seen today in believers has been the result of hard work and being at the right place at the right time, there are no accidents. One of my pastors said once he had never seen a none tither who was blessed, really? Are all millionaires etc. Christian? How about sinner millionaires? Oh, the devil blesses them, the one who is said to have come to kill, steel and destroy? He can't go against his spirit nature.

How we fail to see the depth of His grace. The current teachings of tithing has accomplished one thing, it is just one more area for man to judge himself a failure. We have enough of that to go around.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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As far as the poor, their needs were furnished from offerings, which were stored up in the storehouses in the local towns.
Technically, the offerings were one form of provision for the poor...while one of the tithes was specifically designated to their welfare as well:

Deuteronomy 14:28-29

28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
[/quote]
 
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