consider this (rapture)

   REV 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."(NIV)

Wildfire have you considered this verse.  Notice it says "come up here" too.  I've heard some say this is the place of the rapture.  I dunno!

Originally posted by Terri
...REV 4:1...

Click to expand...

Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

Lets let our evil twins Jerri and Postoe battle this one out!

 

Revelation 4:1 is not talking about rapture. It is talking about John's vision, thjat he saw the angel asked to him, "come up hither". So, he was went up in his vision as he was filled with the Spirit while he received the revelation. The angel asked to only ONE person - John, not the Church.

"Come Hither" find three times in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; & 21:9. All of these verses have do nothing with rapture or Second Advent. These are talking about the angel asked John to come here, and to show him the things.

Also, John does not saying Jesus descend out of heaven - Rev. 4:1. What Jesus is doing - Rev. 4:2? Jesus sits!!

The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are talking about the activity around the throne in the heaven. It is happening right now.

The rapture of Rev. 4:1 was added by pretribulationism doctrine- men-making doctrine. Not what John was really saying on it. John tells us, that he saw ther angel asked him to come up here, John went up to heaven in the vision. That's all. Do nothing with the Church and the Rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib
Revelation 4:1 is not talking about rapture. It is talking about John's vision, thjat he saw the angel asked to him, "come up hither". So, he was went up in his vision as he was filled with the Spirit while he received the revelation. The angel asked to only ONE person - John, not the Church.

"Come Hither" find three times in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; & 21:9. All of these verses have do nothing with rapture or Second Advent. These are talking about the angel asked John to come here, and to show him the things.

Also, John does not saying Jesus descend out of heaven - Rev. 4:1. What Jesus is doing - Rev. 4:2? Jesus sits!!

The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are talking about the activity around the throne in the heaven. It is happening right now.

The rapture of Rev. 4:1 was added by pretribulationism doctrine- men-making doctrine. Not what John was really saying on it. John tells us, that he saw ther angel asked him to come up here, John went up to heaven in the vision. That's all. Do nothing with the Church and the Rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Click to expand...

DeafPosttrib this is your theory.  Some people have the theory that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture.  Neither side can prove their theory.  But, I still like you!  

Originally posted by Terri
DeafPosttrib this is your theory.  Some people have the theory that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture.  Neither side can prove their theory.  But, I still like you!  

Click to expand...

Well, actually not quite.  You see, if we read Revelation 4:1 as literal and the rest of 4 as literal then they have nothing to prove, because it's all literal.  But if someone wants to say that this one passage isn't literal like the rest of Revelation 4 and there is no mention in the writing as such then the burden of proof falls on the one trying to re-interpret what it says.  Since there is no other scripture that backs up that whenever the angel says something to John it is also meaning it will also happen to every Christian in the future just like it happened to John, we really just can't take someone's word for it.

I, too, read Tim Lehaye's book Terri and have seen all the movies and preachings that support this Rev 4:1 view, so I'm not just ignorant to the teaching.  I agree that it sounds good, but so does being able to sin because Jesus paid for sins, but I have a hard time accepting that either (as did Paul).

JesusServant is the following verse to be taken literally or spiritually. I believe verses can have a literal meaning and a spiritual meaning.  They were literally eating bread, but they weren't literally nawing on Jesus.
   
   MT 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

JesusServant you are certainly ahead of me in knowing Tim Lehaye since I have never read any of his books or seen any of the movies to my knowledge.  I didn't even know he supported Rev 4:1 as being the rapture. Dunno--Hope he is right!

I think it is a bit of a stretch to compare this theory with sinning because Jesus paid for our sins. Don't get your point there.

Originally posted by Terri
JesusServant is the following verse to be taken literally or spiritually. I believe verses can have a literal meaning and a spiritual meaning.  They were literally eating bread, but they weren't literally nawing on Jesus.
   
   MT 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Click to expand...

  I'm not saying that the Bible isn't to be interpreted differently in different areas, but there is almost always a rhyme or reason to it.  And never should you say scripture 1 is to be taken in a completely different light then all the following scriptures without it being stated in the scriptures to do such.  For example, Revelation 12 tells us that it is all symbolic in the beginning.  That "a great SIGN appeared" to let us know it isn't to all be taken literally, it's describing actual events through symbolism. 

JesusServant you are certainly ahead of me in knowing Tim Lehaye since I have never read any of his books or seen any of the movies to my knowledge.  I didn't even know he supported Rev 4:1 as being the rapture. Dunno--Hope he is right!

I think it is a bit of a stretch to compare this theory with sinning because Jesus paid for our sins. Don't get your point there.

Click to expand...

Lehaye summed up what modern pre-tribbers believe.  Get his book, Revelation Unveiled, and you'll see what you've been reading on websites and forums about the pre-trib theories, it matches up with a lot of the Late Great Planet Earth book as well.  It's a good read for understanding all the "why's" and the "how's" of the pre-trib beliefs, so if you're a pre-tribber then it's a must read.  Of course, it may make you study more and rethink the pretrib view like it did me, because a lot of it doesn't add up, like the Revelation 4:1 view.

BTW, I was just making an example, not comparing sinning and the theory of the rapture in Rev 4:1.  What is pleasing to the flesh and popular to the masses is almost never what the Bible says or encourages.

JesusServant I can't say if I am pre-trib, mid-trib, or what.  I know I am not post-trib, but the rest is unclear.  I just read theories and then let God work with them in me.  He hasn't made it clear to me yet which one is right! 

My posting of the Rev 4:1 theory doesn't mean I think it is correct--just means it is a theory to consider.

Originally posted by Terri
JesusServant I can't say if I am pre-trib, mid-trib, or what.  I know I am not post-trib, but the rest is unclear.  I just read theories and then let God work with them in me.  He hasn't made it clear to me yet which one is right! 

My posting of the Rev 4:1 theory doesn't mean I think it is correct--just means it is a theory to consider.

Click to expand...

I'm somewhat in the same boat.  I just know what theories don't make sense, I haven't been able to piece together everything just yet myself.  I know there is way too much scripture that goes against a pre-trib rapture, but I'm still putting the pieces together for exactly how to view the end times.  I'm about to be in the "who cares, I'll just leave it to God" boat and never read Revelation again

Anyhoot, I suggest, if you are searching (even though I don't agree with it, it does represent the pre-trib view well) for theories to check out "Revelation Unveiled" by Tim Lehaye.  Over a million people have read it and it's why (along with the left behind series that he and another author [forget his name] wrote) the pre-trib rapture is so popular right now.  God bless!

I do not intepreting Rev. 4:1 by use my own opinion, or theory. I understand very clear 100% agree what Rev. 4:1 is talking about.

How many people, the angel asks to come up hither?

Did you see Jesus descend out of heaven - Rev. 4:1?

Notice, "come hither" find three times in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9. These are talking about the angel asked John to come here ans to show him the things. These have do nothing with rapture.

John does not saying Jesus descend out of heaven in Rev. 4:1, neither he saying it is Second Advent. He was talking about his vision, that he was called by the nagle, to come up to heaven, and to showed him to see the things in the heaven, and the future things.

Rev. 4:1 have do nothing with rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib
I do not intepreting Rev. 4:1 by use my own opinion, or theory.

Click to expand...

So if it's not your own opinion or theory whose is it? 

Terri,

Does John saying Jesus descend out of the heaven - Rev. 4:1??

Does John saying, he saw Second Advent of Rev. 4:1??

Does John saying, he saw resurrection of Rev. 4:1??

Does John saying, he saw gathering of the saints of Rev. 4:1??

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib
Terri,

Does John saying Jesus descend out of the heaven - Rev. 4:1??

Does John saying, he saw Second Advent of Rev. 4:1??

Does John saying, he saw resurrection of Rev. 4:1??

Does John saying, he saw gathering of the saints of Rev. 4:1??

Click to expand...

John probably didn't say anything about a lot of things--that doesn't mean they didn't happen!! 

The word Church is never used after this point!!

Wildfire, I disagree with your interpretation for two reasons.

First, the purpose of the Beast is to make war on Christians.  Your rapture occurs before the mark of the beast.  There wouldn't be a point to it if there were no Christians left.  Look at Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 14 which occur after your rapture of the two Witnesses.  I think the two witnesses may be exactly what they sound like.  Two witnesses (people).  Or perhaps... Doesn't it say that the dead in Christ shall rise first?  Why mention it as "first" if the dead in Christ don't rise a significant time period before the non-dead?  Say the two witnesses represent dead Christians and they are resurrected and raptured at that time.  So when are those who live raptured?  Keep reading...

Look at Revelation 14:6-7.  Notice how the angel has the Gosple to proclaim to all of the earth?  Do you remember the scripture that says that the end will come when the Gospel is preached to all the nations?  That's it right there.  So immediately after this event is...

...the rapture.  Revelation 14:14-16 seems to describe the rapture in clear terms.  The son of man is sitting on a cloud with a sickle and an angel instructs him that the time has come to reap.  So he reaps the harvest.  What could that be if not the rapture (harvest) of Christians?

Immediately following this event are the seven bowls of God's wrath which is also key.  When the rapture is described by Jesus in Luke 17, he places it immediately before the "day of the lord" (which is a metaphorical term for God's final wrath upon the earth).  Notice how he compares it to Noah's flood in which Noah (Christians) was spared and the very same day that the flood occured.  Just as Lot left Sodom on the day it was destroyed.  The rapture will occur immediately before the destruction period in Revelation.

I'm doing a pretty poor job of presenting the Pre-wrath position (slightly after mid tribulation), but it's presented excellently in "The Rapture Question Answered, by Robert Van Kampen."

I haven't finished reading it yet, so I'm not sure if he associates the harvest I mentioned with the rapture, but it seems fairly clear to me.

I'm a bit fuzzy on prophecy and end times, but I've always been suspicious of the idea that the rapture occurs long before the tribulation.  It doesn't help that the authors of the "Left Behind" series (who hold to the pretrib position) didn't exactly inspire confidence in their position.  Those books are boring   Their analysis of end times in their "Are We Living In the End Times." isn't much better.  I think you'll be impressed By Kampen's approach to scripture if you find the time to secure a copy and read it.

And if you want to read some great end times fiction (though I don't necessarily agree with the timing of everything), check out James Beausigner's "Christ Clone Trilogy".  Unfortunately, Warner Books just picked up the trilogy, so you can't buy it anymore!  You can buy the first of the three in 4 days, and the other two are coming out in the middle and end of the year.

Oh well.  Guess I have collectors items now.  I can't wait for all of the heathens to read the trilogy though.  The author and warner do a fantastic job of making it look like an unchristian series   Tricked me into reading it (which is exactly why I came back to Christ; though much of the foundation work was laid a few years before).

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Originally posted by Wildfire
My spirit has been grieved over understanding the 'rapture' and listening to those who debate over it; when it will happen, and who it will happen to.
Upon listening to my pastor reassure a whole congreration that they had nothing to worry about, since they would all miss the coming tribulation, I prayed to God for some insight.
Now, I am no bible scholar and I am not seeking an argument here with this post. I only ask those who seek to understand the truth, to consider what I am going to write. What seems to be so complicated and uncertain, has been made simple and clear.

(when) is the rapture?

There is only one part of Revelation that speaks of such an event, and it is found in chapter 11, AFTER the two witnesses are killed by the 'beast'.

It says: And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD; and their enemies beheld them.

The book of Thess 1 writes a passage similiar:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Corin. 1, 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.

When is the last trumpet sounded? After the sixth angel loosed the four angels which are bound in the river Euphrates; after a third part of men were slain, after the seven thunders uttered their voices, and it is declared that time is no longer.

Back to the two witnesses; who are they? They are the two candlesticks which are before the God of the earth. The SAME two candlesticks spoken of the the beginning of Revelation; the two churches (not buildings, or historical places but CHRISTIANS) who are found worthy, spotless, and clean by God himself.

Very important to understand this.

((Because)) these two witnesses, after their testimony, are KILLED, but they are GIVEN LIFE after three and a half days. They are GIVEN LIFE. So after they martyr themselves for God, they are ressurected, and raptured.

This is a large group of people who are slain; that is why their bodies are not buried, and the world rejoices over their death.

Here is the rapture.

I know this will be rejected, because christians don't want to believe that death comes first, then the rapture; but it is laid out for us to see, and we need to mentally and spiritually be prepared. That is why the disciples spoke of the coming tribulation; because it was so great, like the world has never seen.

That is why we are told to comfort one another with the words spoken in Thess: why would we comfort one another if we were going to be removed.

There is more I would like to post with this, but cannot now.

Wildfire

Click to expand...

Originally posted by Wildfire
The book of Joel tells us that there will be an outpouring of the holy spirit upon all flesh in the last days; young men will see visions, sons and daughters shall prophesy, before the great and terrible day of the Lord. 2:28. I hope I am correct by saying this event will take place during the 3&1/2 years of the two witnesses' testimony.

Click to expand...

You are incorrect.  We've been in the last days since Pentecost.  Peter said so himself (beginning of Acts).  The Spirit has been outpoured since Jesus left.  People do prophecy today, and heal and everything else.

Originally posted by Wildfire
Who are the two witnesses; Rev 11:4 tells us they are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

In the beginning of the book of Revelation, John addresses seven churches, who are symbolized as candlesticks. Only TWO of those churches (candlesticks) are not reprimended, but are seen as being in favor of God. These two churches are Smyrna and Philadelphia. Now, if you read the description of each church, you will see that is describes seven bodies or (types) of christians; God warns five of them to repent, or else he will remove their candlestick. We (as christians) need to know which candlestick we belong to.

If you read through chapter 2 and 3, you will see that God warns those churches less worthy, that they will be thrown into tribulation. This is still a near future event.

The two candlesticks that I mentioned (Smyrna and Philadelphia) will take a stand when God calls them, and rally the world to repentance. They are protected during ther testimony; which last three and a half years.

Then satan comes.

Click to expand...

Mmm.  Good eye.  They still may represent individual people.  And the churches may not represent physical churches, but spiritual churches.  And if they are physical, there may also be people among the "bad" churches who are not unsaved at all.

Originally posted by Wildfire
And makes war with them, and overcomes them and kills them. God allows this to happen. Why?? So the world could see his power and greatness when these bodies of christians are resurrected! Just like Christ was resurrected. Faith in God, will seperate those christians from the rest of the world. These are the five virgins that were prepared. Because when God puts life into them, and they stand on their feet, this marks the beginning of the latter half of the tribulation.

Read Rev 11:18 And the nations were ANGRY and thy WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldst give REWARD unto thy servants and prophets, and to the saints, and them hat fear thy name, small and great: AND SHOULD DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH.

Notice that the dragon in chapter 12:17 was WROTH, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This shows that after the witnesses are resurrected (ascended in a cloud to heaven) that there will be those on earth who will turn away from worshipping of the beast, and give their heart over to God. This will be a troublesome time for those people, and the bible doesn't say much about them; except woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation does move quickly during this time, so I imagine it isn't very long because we are told (satans time is short)

Hope this helps

Click to expand...

Confusing Revelation is.

Notice that the letters to the 7 churches (Smyrna I believe) says that God will protect them from the time of wrath?  Again, I think that is THE wrath (the 7 bowls) of God, not the wrath of Satan.

bleh.

The Rapture is definitely not pretrib though.

Originally posted by Andrew
Wildfire,

It's the witness of the Holy Spirit that tells me your views are wrong.

Clue: if you want to identify the leading of the Holy Spirit, go with the life and peace. If you can honestly tell me that a sermon that tells the brethren they are going to have to go thru wrath and die, b4 they can be raptured will edify them, encourage them and fill them with peace and joy, then i dont know what else to say.

so no point quoting scriptures to me cos this is something i already know in my spirit. you see you can quote and argue and i can quote and argue and we can still not come to an agreement. So i urge you to know and then follow the witness of the Spirit to determine what is truth. get that leading right first b4 looking at scriptures.

Click to expand...

When you say "Holy Spirit" what do you mean?  Catholics say they have the Holy Spirit and I don't believe that for a moment.

Originally posted by postrib
I don't believe the 7th trumpet is the "last trump" because the Lord won't return and sound the last trump until "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), the final stage of which I believe is the 7 vials. Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12, so that we must wait the full 1,335 days, not just 1,260, for the 1st resurrection and rapture.

Click to expand...

That may be an interjection to the reader of Revelation not a command to the Christians remaining on earth.  Though at any point after the rapture, there is the possibility of backslidden Christians and even non-Christians to turn to God.

Originally posted by Terri
DeafPosttrib this is your theory.  Some people have the theory that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture.  Neither side can prove their theory.  But, I still like you!  

Click to expand...

True because neither of those two views are correct

If Revelation wasn't useful, it wouldn't be in teh Bible Terri.  I believe that it can be sorted out, but no one will figure it out by reading a few verses here or there.  There are GOBS of scriptural material in both testaments about the end of the world and the period most often described in the Revelation.  It's there for a reason.