Blacks, Racism & Russia: Does anyone know what Russian Orthodoxy has said on this?

inconsequential said:

I can understand nationalism in some circumstances because some countries ARE better than others when it comes to culture, beliefs, etc.

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Would you mind explaining what exactly do you mean by "better" than others? How would you evaluate was it or isn't "better" in regards to comparing one country with another? To be clear, I'm not saying there are not ways of contrasting countries with each other and demonstrating where one may be more efficient in an area or where one may not be beneficial according to what scripture denotes. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes it does seem the standards for determining what is or isn't better may not seem really clear---and other times, the standards are far from being sufficient.

With the subject of nationalism, I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. One can have pride in their ethnic heritage and national history. This is what the entire basis behind the Olympics is centered upon--and for some excellent reads on the subject, one can go/investigate a book entitled National identity and global sports events. What the authors of that work noted on Russian and how the Soviets felt the Olympics were beneficial for their nationalist agenda was rather fascinating (as discussed here on p.g 154). The history of the Olympics is interesting to consider when studying Russia's actions in comparision with what other nations were doing at certain points in history. In example, at one point when Hitler was in power/trying to promote nationalism with a negative sense, Hitler sought to use the games to further his own ends. Pg 67 of the "National Identity and Global Sports" book talked specifically about Hitler in his not favoring sports at all since he/others felt that they were implicitly universalistic--and something that could not be limted as a domain for only one group to dominate as they desired. The history is truly fascinating, Bro.


Of course, what occurred with the Olympics at Berlin is something that Hitler wasn't prepared for...specifically if seeing how big of a deal it was for folks like James "Jesse" Owens to go to the Olympics when the Nazi's sponsored it since a black male outclassed all within the events he did and went against Hitler's intended goal of showcasing those whom he felt lived up to his Aryan ideals and were meant to be seen as the dominant ethnicity.

To see that occur is interesting in light of how blacks were treated in the U.S --very nationalistic as well, even though they mistreated their own people (i.e. Afro-Americas, Japanese Americans, Native Americans, etc ) who felt they were apart of American identity as well and fought in the same wars the U.S was fighting abroad. For them, it was an issue of having a nationalism that involved the concept W.E.B Debois discussed with "2 Americas".....and the U.S nationalistic pride they had was not pride that another part of U.S culture had pride in since that aspect of U.S culture was destroying minorities.


With Jessie Owens, this is significant since he was able to nationally represent a country that hated/despised him....and for Jessie Owens to be cheered at the Olympics by others outside of America made a big impression. Owens was told to be ready for insults when he arrived/not to be surprised at others hating him.....and yet later Owens recalled that he had gotten the greatest ovations of his career at Berlin. Some have said that the reason why was because while Nazi officials were often trying to portray blacks/other minorities as inferior, the people of Germany felt differently when seeing him in action---and those supporting him did so out of admiration just as much as they did so out of rebellion to governmental views they disagreed with.

For more, go to "Owens to be honored for '36 Hitler humiliation - Olympic Sports - NBC Sports"

As far as I know from what I read, in Hitler's Germany Jesse Owens could share a bus or tram ride with white people. Treated equally before the law he could visit a cinema or church with whites, use public toilets and dine in restaurants, stay in hotels without any discrimination being shown towards him. But in the U.S, Negro athletes were required to eat apart from their white fellow athletes.

If they were allowed to share the same hotel at all ( unlikely most of the times), it would be necessary for them to use the back entrance. To have all of those factors working together with the Olympics is interesting...and it gets even crazier when seeing how Hitler (as a Eugenist) worked with people such as Margret Sanger to establish Planned Parenthood (if looking up the "Negro Project" as she named it)/attempt to wipe out minorities in the U.S while Hitler sought to deal with Jews in his area. And for those who were Afro-Germans, they were also dealt with---a subject which was discussed more in-depth here in #8 and #13.


Having a black man celebrated in Germany was a huge encouragment to others during the era---but in many ways, it could be used as a distraction for Hitler on other levels. Others around the world realized this in many ways when it came to the Olympics/nationalistic dynamics being used to divert from larger issues.. In many ways, the politics of Germany violating certain concepts almost had it shut down. In discussing the subject with my brother/best bud in Christ, here's what he noted:

Specifically in our class, we talked about when we talk about Theater & performance...-these things are not limited to just stage performance in the traditional sense. In the basest sense, whenever you are doing something in front of people we are essentially performing. (unnerving for a C, I know). It hits at the question of who you really are and the different ways we choose to portray ourselves in different scenearios. One point discussed in the class is that actors are mearly people who release the inner character within themselves, i.e., someone playing a king is releasing the king that is really inside of him and presenting it on stage to others since the entire crux of theater as opposed to cinema is the dynamic of having a live audience present. Specifically concerning the Olympics, this was presented as a performance on the part of the Nazi regime as you already noted w/ Hitler desiring to showcase the superiority of the Aryan race, but also video clips we have from the event (on youtube) show the prominent display of Swastika banners. Also, the professor discussed how their was much debate over whether countries (such as the USA) would boycott the Olympics since Germany's actions at this point were not a secret since I believe they had already violated some aspects of the their treaty fr WWI and maybe even gone as far as conquering some smaller territories. There was huge debate over whether the US and other countries should boycott the games as this article discusses: The Movement to Boycott the Berlin Olympics of 1936


And the US did boycott the games when held in Moscow in 1980 due to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
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When considering the ways that black freedom revolutions were occurring all over the world and Russia was actively seeking to help those groups who were actively resisting capitalism/western mindsets such as those from the U.S, the reactions by the U.S toward Russia are interesting. For although they may've spoke out against a system they disagreed with, the reality is that some of the minority groups within U.S CULTURE would've been actively welcomed by the Russians....and with the Russians/U.S working together to take out Germany later, there was a level of transnational identity crisis that may've taken place for blacks around the world. Which country do you choose? Russia or the U.S as the one who you take pride in? And when the country you're in is at war with another that may support your ethnic group more than the homeland, how do you respond?

One of the best films on the issue is known as the Tuskagee Airmen, a movie based on the historical account of black pilots in WWII.


One of the best quotes from one of the generals in the film was "How do I feel about my country? And how does my country feel about me?"

All of that said, Nationalism has always been a double-edged sword and one where it can be either good--or bad, depending on who's wielding it...or the season it's being picked up in...and for another excellent read on the matter, one can investigate the book entitled Gaming the world: how sports are reshaping global politics and culture by Andrei S. Markovits and Lars Rensmann...truly an excellent read in examining the ways sports have merged cultures together in conflict to examine which ones are superior in differing ways. With the many ways that sports themselves encourage nationalism and competition, one cannot say that all forms of nationalism are negative--and with black culture, nationalism has also occurred throughout various points in history when blacks were told to not like themselves as a people. With the subject of Afro-Russians, what perplexes me is how those living there who may be "nationlist" for their country are greatly mistreated due to being considered oddities/standing out and told they need to leave the nation...even though the nation's history was one of actually supporting blacks. And with the Orthodox Church, I wonder how it can have so much power/influence and not seem to directly speak to the Russian State on the subject.

But racism just doesn't compute for me. Heck, even a Great Dane and a Chihuahua recognize they are the same species.

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True. Racism never made any sense, as we're all the same race. And with discrimination/prejudice and xenophobia, all of those things always led to destrution rather than true benefit.

Sorry, not trying to derail, just subscribing by indicating my confusion with the whole concept.

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Not derailing at all and I thank you for sharing your sentiments.

MKJ said:

Are you seriously arguing that ideas of separating "races" has any place in God's kingdom?

And you think the Pope of all people supports that idea?
.

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I was hoping that it'd not be the case that seperation of ethnic groups was considered to be the Lord's will. And if it is considered to be the "will of the Lord", then I'd seriously wonder how it was the case that Samaritans, Jews, and Gentiles are meant to come together in the Messiah and work together---weeping with those who weep and rejoicing with those who rejoice/taking the struggles of one group as serious as their own.

OuterWater said:

Racism is a part of the fallen human condition. It is evil. If you are racist, you are violating Christ's commandment to love your neighbors and your enemies. You are violating Christ's commandment not to judge. You are ignorant of St. Paul's statement that in Christ there is no Greek nor Jew nor Barbarian nor Scythian. It seems so obvious to me from an Orthodox standpoint that I don't even feel like it needs to be said. It's like saying "Murder is wrong." Duh..... .

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I agree. I think the main thing that can get at others is when a command is acknowledged and yet not much is done in terms of addressing it. An example would be a church saying that aborting babies is wrong...and yet when single mothers ask for help or resources, the church says nothing except "Well, of course abortion is WRONG!!!!" No visible action to address an issue has the potential of coming off as supporting it. That focus was why other Orthodox members joined with people during the Civil Rights era to end Jim Crow/address the wrongs of ethnic discrimination since there were PLENTY of churches preaching about the need to be united in Christ/loving one another and racism being wrong...yet in their actions, there was no visible change---and many were content acknowledging an issue rather than going out/protesting against it via the marches.

In regards to the Russian Orthodox church, I've not seen alot of involvement by others within it getting involved with what others in the world have been doing in protesting against it via marches/demonstrations---or using it's influence with the State to be a voice for those saying the government/local police have been severely lax in enforcing laws that punish those doing hate crimes toward others. Other Russians not even involved with the Church have noted that and I am really wondering why the CHurch doesn't seem to be directly addressing the issue as other parts of Orthodoxy have done within their areas when similar things came up.

That being said, I think in American society at least, we have gone overboard with what is considered racist. Howard Cossel comes to mind with his "little monkey" comment back during the 80s. It didn't matter that he had called plenty of white players "Little monkeys" over the course of his career. It didn't matter that he explained what he was talking about. He was damned in society's eyes, I believe, even by the people who knew he wasn't being racist, because he had violated the new sacred laws of speech. We constantly see people misspeaking or saying things that are innocuous and misconstrued as racist, and the second the words are out of their mouths, they are damned forever, regardless of explanations or apologies. Condemning someone in such a way is also an extreme violation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

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That I can more than understand...and on many things, I do think it can be taken overboard. SOme things, however, I don't see how they can be misinterpreted..especially when understanding their historical significance. In example, just because a white man calls his friends the "N" word doesn't mean I'm going to say someone offended by it was wrong since that word has continually been used in a highly deragatory manner....and for others called such/mistreated, it's a sensitive issue.

And in regards to the OP (which applies to all minorities in Russia, be it Afro-Russians or Indian-Russians, Japaneses-Russian and many others), if the Gospel of Jesus Christ demands we get involved/be sensitive toward one another, we have to do something as a Body when there is mistreatment toward others being called a host of issues ---the N Word included, as said often by hate groups. If laws were made within the U.S and the church influenced the government to do so, I am curious why it doesn't seem (to my knowledge) that the ROC has sought to do the same in its own territory. The larger issue for me isn't just the subject of verbal harrassment, but of physical acts terrorism toward minorities/violence toward them to the point that many have left. As no laws or enforcement of laws has been done to protect its own people, if ever choosing to teach abroad or work with the churhces there, that'd be something I'd not take lightly. The issue makes a significant difference in the culture of the nation and where it may go in the future...

inconsequential said:

Some countries/cultures have higher standards for how they treat their own people (enemies too) than other countries. My judgement of a country is based primarily on how it treats it's people as well as outsiders. It's as simple as that for me. I don't think too deeply when it comes to that kind of thing. If a country takes care of its weakest and helps the helpless, I regard it as better than a country that euthanizes it's elderly and kills its unwanted children.

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Makes sense to me. On that issue, I don't see many countries that may be different from others euthanizing their elderly and killing unwanted babies--but abortion will always destroy any nation. And anytime a group of people is mistreated in a nation, harm will follow...

OuterWater said:

As I have never been to Russia, do not plan on going to Russia, and do not speak Russian, I could not say. If I saw the OCA turning a blind eye toward racism, I would be unhappy, but I have not seen that. That's about all I can say.

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"OCA" means what in specific? I'm aware of how ROC is "Russian Orthodox Church" and "OOC" is the "Oriential Orthodox Church"...but the "OCA" is a new one. For the places within Orthodoxy I've been able to experience that've called out discrimination and gotten involved in social justice endeavors to end mistreatment, it has been a blessing. But in regards to Russia, as I was planning on going there, I'm not really certain how comfortable I'd feel knowing the environment and what life is like within that culture where one can't really rely upon local authorities/government to aid you when you're targeted ....and not feeling as if I could find sanctuary there in the Russian Orthodox Church like I could in other places. But that's just me where I'm at currently and that can change.