The harpazo, what will be taking place

B1inHim · Oct 19, 2011

1 Thess. 4:15-18 is mainly a reassurance to those who have had loved ones die in Christ.

Lets look at it.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we, which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Lets note that the Lord does not descend with the clouds in verse 16.

Then lets note that the dead in Christ comes with Him in verse 16.

Then "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".

To say that the term "clouds" is in reference to as is what a "cloud of witness" is, would cause this verse to be redundant.

By saying that it means that, the scripture would read; "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, with them."

That is just not what it tells us at all.

Apostle Paul used the word "harpazo" once before this.

In 2 Cor. 12:4 he was “caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.”

In using that as a reference, the person was not only seized alone, but was literal caught up and away, plucked, pulled, and/or taken by force into Paradise.

In 1 Thess. 4:17 we are caught up, the action of being plucked, pulled and/or taken by force with them, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…

By changing the meaning of a few words, the POST-T Camp can maintain their teaching and not have to relent to the reality of what is being said.

By being over-baring on this verse the PRE-T Camp can continue to promote something that can only take place IF Lord Jesus left out a return.

This is what will happen, period.

Once the time for the gentiles expires, the sun will be darkened and the moon will become blood red.

At THAT time, the Lord will descend from heaven among the clouds bringing with Him the dead in Him, followed by a host of angels.

He will give a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we, who are alive and remain, shall be caught up by the angels lest we dash our foot on a stone, together with those who came back with the Lord, in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.
(1 Thes. 4:17/Rev.14: 14-16)

Directly AFTER that, ALL of Gods people who are His people at that precise moment will be preserved.

FIRST the 144,000 Children of Israel will be marked with the seal of God on their foreheads.

AFTER that we will be standing before the throne of GOD dressed in white robes that have been washed in the Blood of The Lamb, holding palm branches, shouting with a MIGHTY shout “Salvation comes from our God on the throne and from the Lamb”.

(Rev.7)

Once this happened the SEVENTH seal will be broke open and ALL HELL will be loosed on earth.
(Rev.8)

This will continue for 1,260 days.

During which the two witnesses’ will do their thing, be murdered and eventually be resurrected before everybody.

At the VERY end of the 1,260 days, the Anti-Christ will proclaim that he is actually God and go into the Holy of Holies and sit on the throne of God in the newly built temple.
(II Thes.4:4)

Here, Lord Jesus will literally touch down on this planet as written in Zechariah 14:3-4 for the war; Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as He fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
(Rev 19:11-21)

Once this is finished, there will be a Millennial Sabbath. Neither Satan nor his demonic forces will be able to influence the people of the world during this time.
(Rev. 20:1-3)

At the END of those 1,000 years, he will be loosed for a short season (90 days= 3 months) and will cause as many people as are the sands of the sea to turn against the Lord and His faithful.

(Rev.20…3/7-9)

Father will then flush this galaxy with a fire from heaven.
(Rev.20:9)

We will have the White Throne Judgment.
(Rev.20:11-15)

And EVERYTHING will be BRAND NEW.

(Rev. 21:1)

The New Jerusalem will come down from heaven, Lord Jesus (who is now being called King Jesus) will be in the center of the City and everything else that is written concerning these days will begin.

(Rev 21:&#8230

As it was originally planned, so shall it be.

A total of 14,000 years will have passed since “In the beginning” to then.

Two weeks of God time

(2 Peter 3:8).

That is why the time of 1,000 years is given for the final time before Father intervenes with heaven fire.

It is the second Sabbath, being that the first is where “God rested”, so shall it be the same yesterday, today and forever.

(Gen.2: 2/Heb.13:8)

There is no debate concerning these matters, for those who have the Spirit of God in them.

However, for those who believe in formulas of men, the deception is God approved and He allows strong delusion to over come those who believe in such.

(II Thess. 2:1-11)

There is absolutely NOTHING that can be said to anyone who lives in this type of self-delusion. It is ONLY by the Spirit of God that the mysteries of God can be understood, period.

The “harpazo” takes place during the opening of the 6th seal and is clearly evidenced by the Great Multitude standing before the throne directly after, in Rev.7.
(Joel 3:21/Matthew 24:29-31/Rev.6:12)

Our Divine objective given to us by Lord Jesus is not the debates that fill the pages of this site, but rather is seeking our Life in Christ.

Lifting Him up before this dying planet that He will draw everyone to Himself.

This Little Light of Mine #1 ADDISON ROAD - YouTube

Verily I say unto you, “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

May all that we do, say and think, honor and glorify Father God in heaven, 24/7.

In Jesus name, So Be It
Any questions?

Love,

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zeke37 · Oct 19, 2011

the simple fact remains that the rapture of 1Thes4 happens after the righteous dead are raised, which we know from scripture is on the last day.

pre and mid trib are fantasy

B1inHim · Oct 19, 2011

zeke37 said:
the simple fact remains that the rapture of 1Thes4 happens after the righteous dead are raised, which we know from scripture is on the last day.

pre and mid trib are fantasy

Hi Zeke,
When the time comes and it will come in our generation.

You will see what will happen.

There are no provisions for the Saved in Christ after the opening of the 6th seal, other than that for the the 144,000. and what is written in Rev.7.

The Post-T camp completely sidestep Rev. 7 as do the Pre-T camp does.

We will be in the Great Multitude, if we are in Christ which are located in Rev. 7:9...
We have not seen the opening of the 6th seal yet.

But we will, soon, and then...

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zeke37 · Oct 19, 2011

last day, is the last day.

mid trib can't fit into that.

LastSeven · Oct 19, 2011

B1, I think Zeke summed it up pretty well. Do you deny that the event in 1 Thess 4 happens after the resurrection? Or do you deny that the resurrection happens on the last day?

I understand that you have some other scriptures that seem to say otherwise but you always have to read unclear scripture in light of clear scripture. And I think the point that Zeke made is much easier to support with scripture than your point.

Shall we compare scriptures and see which is clearer?

zeke37 · Oct 19, 2011

B1inHim · Oct 19, 2011

This is what the word tells us.

Jesus, speaking about His return to gather us is directly after the sun being darkened and the moon turned blood red.

The evidence of this prophecy is in Revelation 6 where the 6th seal is opened.

Directly after the sun is darkened and the moon made blood red, the 144,000 are sealed and the Great Multitude are in heaven before the throne.

In Revelation 7.

Period.

What ever formula that is being used to allow us to stay here beyond that is hypothetical, supposed and pure theory.

The term "last day" is open to more than one interpretation; may have a double meaning and unclear or inexact because a choice between alternatives can be made.

What is said by Lord Jesus concerning what happens directly before and when He returns to gather us is clearly evidenced in Rev 6 and 7.

This is not a "might be" what if, could be or maybe.

It is what is.

The sun is darkened, the moon turns blood red and we are gathered.
Spoken by Lord Jesus and evidenced by Apostle John.

Anything other than that is pure supposition, conjecture and hypothetical.

Just because some might believe that we will stay here till the very end does not negate the proven evidence of the Great Multitude standing before that throne right after the opening of the 6th seal, who have come out of the Great Tribulation.

All it means is that there MIGHT be something to the teaching and it could happen that way, maybe.

We have yet to see the day when the sun is darkened and the moon turned blood red in the midst of stars falling and a cataclysmic earthquake along with the heavens scrolling up and every mountain and Island moved out of their place, all taking place at the same time.

We will, in this generation.

Very soon.

There are no provisions made for those who are left on this planet once the 6th seal is opened.

EXCEPT for the 144,000 and the scene we read in Rev 7.

So until this takes place (the 6th seal being opened) the Post-T camp cannot say for absolute certain that what they are teaching is 100% correct.

And once it does take place, it will happen exactly like it has been shown herein.
Not because I say so, but rather because it is written that way.

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zeke37 · Oct 20, 2011

I believe Rev is a repeating timeline, so to speak.

the 6th seal is IMO the time just before/as Jesus Comes a gathering.
His 2nd Coming. this is not pre trib or mid trib.

the events after Rev7 are the details leading up to it.

we are all here for all of it.

zeke37 · Oct 20, 2011

the last day is not up for interpretation at all.

there are the last days, leading up to the last day.

it is a very easy thing to document.

Biblewriter · Oct 20, 2011

zeke37 said:
the last day is not up for interpretation at all.

there are the last days, leading up to the last day.

it is a very easy thing to document.

You have simply ignored the scriptures I quoted, proving that two different events are both prophesied to take place on the last day, but other scriptures explicitly say that a thousand years take place between these two events.

This conclusively disproves your contention that "the last day is not up for interpretation at all."

zeke37 · Oct 20, 2011

Biblewriter said:
You have simply ignored the scriptures I quoted, proving that two different events are both prophesied to take place on the last day, but other scriptures explicitly say that a thousand years take place between these two events.

This conclusively disproves your contention that "the last day is not up for interpretation at all."

you posted what scripture quotes?

you mean the ones that say last days, plural?

the raising of the righteous dead is on last day.
the last of those days.

sorry Biblewriter, you are simply incorrect.

B1inHim · Oct 20, 2011

zeke37 said:
you posted what scripture quotes?

you mean the ones that say last days, plural?

the raising of the righteous dead is on last day.
the last of those days.

sorry Biblewriter, you are simply incorrect.

TAKE this to another thread, thank you

B1inHim · Oct 20, 2011

This is the what that takes place concerning the harpazo and where we end up.

There is no IF, COULD BE, MIGHT BE, MAYBE or IMO in this at all.

The what to look for and what will happen

King Jesus tells us in His own Words; Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

FULFILLED HERE
*And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

*They shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

FULFILLED HERE
Rev. 7:1-4 (KJV)
*And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev. 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The following is the how the harpazo takes place.

1 Thes. 4:15-17 (KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them, which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

During this generation, on a day that is soon to come; this is that word of the Lord and it fulfilled
The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

IE; when He opens the 6th seal, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree castes her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is where we end up. Till further notice

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them, which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

AND all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying,

Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
Who are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knows.

And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sunlight on them, nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the Gospel according to what is written and this is what and how it is going to happen.

6th seal, major cataclysms, gathered, period.

We will be authorized to do many honors after this, including but not limited to, being in a war, ruling nations, judging angelsad infinitum

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zeke37 · Oct 20, 2011

can't you see that the rapture happens after the time of the dead?

i mean, read the 7th trump...time of the dead...
that is also when the rapture happens...

look at Rev14, gathering to Christ
that is also when the rapture happens.

it repeats....so we are still here for all the events after Rev7

and you can't say...take it to another thread....well, you shouldn't.
I have not done that to you.
infact, folks are reported for such behaviour....not that i will.

Biblewriter · Oct 20, 2011

zeke37 said:
you posted what scripture quotes?

you mean the ones that say last days, plural?

the raising of the righteous dead is on last day.
the last of those days.

sorry Biblewriter, you are simply incorrect.

I John 6:39-54 we read:

"And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

This passage clearly states, four times over, that the righteous will be raised at the last day.

But then we read in John 12:48 that "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

So we are clearly told that both the resurrection of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked will take place at or in the last day. Please note that the Greek original in each of these places is the singular day, not days.

But in Revelation 20:4-15 we read:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

In this passage the resurrection of the righteous (the first resurrection) is clearly stated to be before the thousand year reign, and the judgment of the wicked (the second death) is just as clearly stated to take place after that thousand year reign. So these two events take place at least a thousand years apart in time.

But the passages we just examined just as clearly state that both of these events will take place at or in the last day.

This is not a contradiction in scripture. Instead, it is conclusive proof that the scriptural term "the last day." Is a generic term for the last times, even as the Greek word hemera (day) is often used in scripture figuratively to represent a time. (This should not surprise anyone, for in our own language, we often use our word day figuratively to mean a time.) A few examples of this figurative use of the word day follow:

"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem," (Luke 9:51) The Greek word here (quite correctly) translated time is hemera, which literally translates as day. We know that the English word time is the correct translation of the Greek word hemera in this case because he was not actually received up until a significant time after this incident, so the meaning is clearly time, not day.

"And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God." (John 16:23-27)

In this passage the present time is twice over clearly called "that day." We know the reference is to the present time because the situation is that which applies from the time Jesus was resurrected until the present time.

The unavoidable conclusion is that the Holy Scriptures use both the word day and the expression the last day figuratively to represent a general period of time. Neither one of them necessarily refers to a specific moment in time, or to a specific 24 hour day.

B1inHim · Oct 20, 2011

Both of you are looking at "WHEN: and with "WHEN" there are too many variables.

The term "last day" is open to more than one interpretation; may have a double meaning and is unclear or inexact because a choice between alternatives can be made.

There is no choice as to the what or how it is going to take place.

This is EXACTLY how a thread becomes a room full of OPINIONS.

What I am talking about is not a possibility or opinion, it is what will take place in the sequence that King Jesus provides and Apostle John through, by and in the Holy Spirit confirms.

Rev. 6:12 thru Revelation 7 complete Matthew 24:29-31.

PLEASE take you "last day" conversation to another thread.
Thank you.

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zeke37 · Oct 20, 2011

Biblewriter said:
I John 6:39-54 we read:

"And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

This passage clearly states, four times over, that the righteous will be raised at the last day.

that is the last day

But then we read in John 12:48 that "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

so then, that is the last day.

So we are clearly told that both the resurrection of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked will take place at or in the last day. Please note that the Greek original in each of these places is the singular day, not days.

i agree so far.

But in Revelation 20:4-15 we read:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

indeed. The only way to reconsile the two sets of scripture is to understand that the Lord's Day, is the last day, and it lasts for 1000 years.
at the beginning of that day, at is return, the righteous dead are raised.
at the end of that day, the rest of the dead are judged.

In this passage the resurrection of the righteous (the first resurrection) is clearly stated to be before the thousand year reign, and the judgment of the wicked (the second death) is just as clearly stated to take place after that thousand year reign. So these two events take place at least a thousand years apart in time.

But the passages we just examined just as clearly state that both of these events will take place at or in the last day.

This is not a contradiction in scripture. Instead, it is conclusive proof that the scriptural term "the last day." Is a generic term for the last times,

i disagree, for the above stated reasons. The last day is the Millennium.
the only real references we have to the term "the last day" is for when the dead are raised.

we have the last days, plural, which describe the time leading up to the last day.

even as the Greek word hemera (day) is often used in scripture figuratively to represent a time. (This should not surprise anyone, for in our own language, we often use our word day figuratively to mean a time.) A few examples of this figurative use of the word day follow:

"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem," (Luke 9:51) The Greek word here (quite correctly) translated time is hemera, which literally translates as day. We know that the English word time is the correct translation of the Greek word hemera in this case because he was not actually received up until a significant time after this incident, so the meaning is clearly time, not day.

"And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God." (John 16:23-27)

In this passage the present time is twice over clearly called "that day." We know the reference is to the present time because the situation is that which applies from the time Jesus was resurrected until the present time.

it was not the present time when He said it.
it became the time, after He resurrected.
so it was future.

The unavoidable conclusion is that the Holy Scriptures use both the word day and the expression the last day figuratively to represent a general period of time. Neither one of them necessarily refers to a specific moment in time, or to a specific 24 hour day.

i made my case. the last day is the Millennium...the day of the Lord.
the dead are raised on the last day, and then after that, the rapture.

at the end of that day, the rest of the dead are judged.

Choose Wisely · Oct 20, 2011

B1inHim said:
By being over-baring on this verse the PRE-T Camp can continue to promote something that can only take place IF Lord Jesus left out a return.

This is what will happen, period.

Well, Jesus did not leave out a return, but you are. The first return we see at the Trump of God, like the Days of Noah. The second return you are talking about after the sun is darkened and the moon not giving light will happen at the Last Trump. It will be like the Days of Lot.

Your logic is pretty good concerning a rapture but what you can't prove is that there will not be two raptures........one pretrib and one prewrath (prewrath occurs after sun darkened etc.) Learn the parable of the fig tree.

B1inHim · Oct 21, 2011

Choose Wisely said:
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Well, Jesus did not leave out a return, but you are. The first return we see at the Trump of God, like the Days of Noah. The second return you are talking about after the sun is darkened and the moon not giving light will happen at the Last Trump. It will be like the Days of Lot.

Your logic is pretty good concerning a rapture but what you can't prove is that there will not be two raptures........one pretrib and one prewrath (prewrath occurs after sun darkened etc.) Learn the parable of the fig tree.

There is no evidence that there is going to be more than ONE harpazo.

King Jesus reaps one time, from the clouds. We see this in Revelation 14 as well as I Thes 4...

There are no other references to any type of harpazo outside of this reaping.
Revelation is written of what was, is and is to come. it is all inclusive and can be used to support the event as has been shown by this servant.

One time.
The sickle is thrust in for the saved.
One time.
The sickle is thrust in for judgement.

I was only shown/in the one harpazo, so what I share is what I know by experience. Not learned or taught by men.

The evidence of our being in the first 3.5 years is clearly seen by those who are not obsessed with the dogma of mans theology of the Word of God.
This portion of the GT is not as bad as the portion that is to come.

Many say; "if that is so, who is the AC!!!?"

He has been exposed by the Spirit and can be known by the Spirit alone.

Once he has been exposed before this world, we will have been long gone from the equation.
And even then He doesn't say "hey I'm the AC everybody".
That would be ignorant.
They will not know that he is the AC till it is too late and even then they won't be able to recognize him.
Because they don't believe in him.
They want a Savior.

There is but one more prophecy to be fulfilled before we leave and that is the opening of the 6th seal. Once that takes place MANY of those who have been riding on the whim of the Pre-T camps wings will have to actually be prepared at THAT exact moment in time.

It will happen suddenly and have no warning.

The opening of the 6th seal will fulfill several prophecies all at once.
I Thes. 5:3 is but one of them.

IF the harpazo were to take place as you say, there will be hundreds of thousands of, if not millions of people who will be directly and indirectly spiritually damaged beyond recovery.
The families of the loved ones that were killed as the unmanned conveyances crashed into their schools, hospitals, bus stops, homes...would
CRY OUT
"GOD IS A MURDER!!!"
"Jesus KILLED my little Suzi, Bobby, Billy... I saw Him in the sky..."
All so that your camp could be rescued from any of the last 7 years of the GT.

God does not save His own and contradicts His will that none should perish but that all come to repentance.

NO.

There is no mention of your camp being in heaven.

Only the Rev.7 camp.

And that camp, all of it, is deemed as coming "out of the Great Tribulation".

The first four seals are evidenced daily 24/7, right now.

We do not get to see the evidence of the 5th seal.

All that is left is the 6th seal and after that we are seen standing before the throne...

One might go as far as to attempt to say that the Pre-T camp is part of the group that are in Rev. 5:9.

ALL of those who are singing in that chapter are clearly listed.

It is pure supposition that ALL those who are in the song, are singing.

It isn't. They are not there.
Only the ones who are listed are the ones singing.
OTHERWISE, Apostle John left out where this Pre-T camp showed up before the song.
Remember, he was given the strict responsibility to record EVERYTHING that he saw as it was seen. And even one time he was told; "do not record what the 7 Thunders said".

The ONLY reason why there is no mention of a PRE-T harpazo or their camp in Revelation is that there is none.

Like I said, I have only been in one harpazo.

The one that is in the bible and this OP is about where and how it happens. Mostly how.

The one that you are talking about must have already happened if it was supposed to be before the GT started.

I cannot support the Post-T camp due to the fact that I didn't have to stay passed the 6th seal.

So all of the "last days" and the "last trump" theology in their camp must mean something different than what is going to actually happen.
Just like the way that your camp is not mentioned in Revelation without a formula.

The Revelation 7 camp is clearly seen and open to all who are willing to live by, through and in the Spirit of God which is the Oil that we will need to get to the Wedding supper. (see Matthew 25:1-13)

The bad thing about these teachings is that they have to be included with the wheat for now. Because of that there will be a lot of casualties.

According to King Jesus' Word, 50%.

ערבות מדינה

zeke37 · Oct 21, 2011

B1inHim said:
Both of you are looking at "WHEN: and with "WHEN" there are too many variables.

The term "last day" is open to more than one interpretation; may have a double meaning and is unclear or inexact because a choice between alternatives can be made.

wrong. The last day is not up for interpretation.
It is when the righeous are raised, as John plainly teaches. see John6/11
it happens first, and then the rapture occures. see 1The4

There is no choice as to the what or how it is going to take place.

This is EXACTLY how a thread becomes a room full of OPINIONS.

What I am talking about is not a possibility or opinion, it is what will take place in the sequence that King Jesus provides and Apostle John through, by and in the Holy Spirit confirms.

what you are talking about, happens on the last day.

Rev. 6:12 thru Revelation 7 complete Matthew 24:29-31.

agreed. and then we are told about that time in other ways.
but we are all still here for it all. we don't leave the planet for Rev8-on
we are here for Rev11. time of the dead.
we are here in Rev12. keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
we are here for Rev13. overcome the saints.
we are here for Rev14. gathered to Jesus.
We are here for Rev16. it is done
We are here in Rev17 and 18. come out of her my people
and yes, even Rev19. the many waters are nations peoples tongues.
we are here in Rev20, 21 and 22 too.

PLEASE take you "last day" conversation to another thread.
Thank you.

ערבות מדינה

you used harpazo, found in 1Thes4.
in that scripture set we can note that Jesus brings the dead believers back here with Him when He comes.
John teaches us that the righteous dead are raised on the last day.

so it is very relevant...and you do not have the authority to ask me to leave.
you can ask to close the thread....but come on Bro...
the last day is when the rapture happens.

The harpazo, what will be taking place

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