Hate is a true representation of Christianity

HisHomeMaker said:

A work colleague just posted this on his Facebook. He is a self-proclaimed "skeptic" and atheist, former member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation and now looking to start up a local group for skeptics.

Today I was checking for references that have Jesus supporting the nastiness of the Old Testament as many Christians claim that stuff doesn't matter because of Jesus. Found it. Then I reviewed some info about Westboro Baptist Church and all the crazy, hate-filled protests they stage. That's when I started to wonder. Could it be that with all of their messages of hate, "God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", and so on, that the Westboro group is actually a truer representation of Christianity than all of the churches that oppose their message and claim coverage by the blood of the lamb?

Help me form a response that will show him that hate isn't true for Christians.

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Why respond?

What he says is true - many Christians do follow a hate agenda.

The point to challenge is that in drawing one's source of reference from one particular instance is not good theology. If your colleague is genuinely concerned he will do further research and find the real facts.

Beside - anything appearing on Facebook has to be suspect.

I think Wayseer offers sound advice.

Looking at the question though, 'is hate a truer representation of Christianity?' with reference to the Westboro Baptist Church, I think it's worth bearing some things in mind.

The Definition of 'love' for the WBC is defined as permissiveness, moral laxity and indulgence of wickedness (quote In essence “God loves everyone” means that man can lead a sinful life, violate the commandments of God daily, not fear Him and still go to heaven. It means that man does not have to be accountable for his/her sins and that there is not a Day of Judgment when men receive the things done in the body whether it be good or evil.) thus, it's quite easy to find their much touted 701 verses showing God's 'hatred'...because they're found in his judgement and punishment.

Of course it helps that they're hyper-calvinists, every action finds its origin in the will and consent of God- thus when these people sin it's because God made them so: "clay vessels for destruction", it seems strikingly cruel to make something that is only to be destroyed.

And of course, hell is a place of eternal torment with no respite, which only compounds the sense of how much he (and of course it's only ever he) dislikes humanity.

It goes without saying that the bible is 'literally true' for these people too, so the hatred of God spoken through the bible are his words, word for word...

But it's ok I think, The WBC misses so much in their nutty doctrines, they don't ever try to look at the other side, where commands to love and live in harmony are reflections of the Divine, they never seem to stop and ask what binds the trinity together, and why create and incarnate and grieve over one's wayward children, which should be gathered under the wings like hen's chicks, the whole of the Psalms and Song of Songs becomes meaningless to these people....it still rains upon the righteous and the unrighteous, and one day God will be all in all, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the lord...What God of hate cries 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' even as the world hates back? And that's just a starting point.

Of course, I will say this in the WBCs favour, at least they call a duck a duck; some Christians hold identical (or very similar ideas) and simply redefine 'love' to resemble nothing like we'd understand as 'love'.

And if we can't identify 'love' how can we really say to have a relationship with that which is totally love?

I'm sorry if that's a bit of a rambly blur.

I think that if your friend thinks moral theology or philosophy is always cut and dried, he is in for a surprise. That is really not so in any system I can think of. And how we understand Scripture isn't always cut and dried either.

Jesus warns His disciples that many will hate them because of Him, all the gospels have this. Note that it is not really hatred of disciples but of Christ Jesus..
Most of the references have end time connotations

Wayseer,

What he says is true - many Christians do follow a hate agenda.

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Which is what the atheist is saying isnt it? But the likes of Westboro and their opposite LGBT factions in the church are not following the love of God through Jesus.

HisHomeMaker said:

Help me form a response that will show him that hate isn't true for Christians.

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I think I would say that the best pattern for our faith is not the adherents of it, all of whom are more or less rubbish at it, but at the person we are attempting to emulate.

It is Christ himself who is the pattern. If we look for an example in anyone else on earth, we are bound to fall down. However, if we look to Christ, we will keep steadily moving towards him, however slowly, and however falteringly.

To say, Christians are sometimes vile, therefore Christianity is worth nothing is really a non sequitur. To me that is like saying, because many people fail to reach the top of Everest, there is no point anyone even trying.

Sometimes the journey is important, not just the destination, in other words.

I agree with Catherineanne except that the person in question does seem to be looking at Christ.
I think we have to remember that Jesus went to the cross hated and despised yet He was innocent, indeed He had healed the sick etc.
A good example of this in modern times could be the statement a couple of years ago of a gay and lesbian organsation which said that if the gospel included the sin of same sex relations then it wasnt good news for gays. the gospel is what it is and is good news for wjhat it is, if people are saying its not good news for them then it doesnt mean the gospel isnt good news, it means they dont believe the gospel, and there is nothing anyone can do about that unless they come to believe it.

Same here, if God is seen as hateful from a human pov then thats how people see God.

This person might like to consider that God said if one ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die, so all the people who the atheist sees God has killed, God hasnt killed at all, the people had already chosen to be dead in sin. God however had laid out life and death again, life through Him or the death people had already chosen themselves, without Him.
Whether this person would believe it or not doesnt change the Biblical testimony.

HisHomeMaker said:

A work colleague just posted this on his Facebook. He is a self-proclaimed "skeptic" and atheist, former member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation and now looking to start up a local group for skeptics.

Today I was checking for references that have Jesus supporting the nastiness of the Old Testament as many Christians claim that stuff doesn't matter because of Jesus. Found it. Then I reviewed some info about Westboro Baptist Church and all the crazy, hate-filled protests they stage. That's when I started to wonder. Could it be that with all of their messages of hate, "God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", and so on, that the Westboro group is actually a truer representation of Christianity than all of the churches that oppose their message and claim coverage by the blood of the lamb?

Help me form a response that will show him that hate isn't true for Christians.

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Simple. Ask the guy if he thinks the WBC is following the words of Jesus. Once it is (easily) established that they are not, we can demonstrate that they are not Christians, but simply a cult using Christian motifs. Do some research into them for him. Very dodgy.

ContraMundum said:

Simple. Ask the guy if he thinks the WBC is following the words of Jesus. Once it is (easily) established that they are not, we can demonstrate that they are not Christians, but simply a cult using Christian motifs. Do some research into them for him. Very dodgy.

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Perfect way to respond.

I also have a problem with him going on about "true Christianity". Frankly, from a purely secular and objective point of view, true Christianity is whatever the majority of Christians believe. Therefore, the Lovey Dovey Christianity IS Christianity, whether it is found in Scripture or not.

If the majority of Christians tomorrow stated that in order to be saved one must wear a red hat and do at least three cartwheels daily, then that becomes Christianity whether or not it is Scriptural.

A nonbeliever, logically, should be more interested in what the religion says and does now, not its roots.

Now, of course, as a Christian I believe infinite Love and Mercy is a Commandment given to all Christians, but I hope you see my point.

Simple. Ask the guy if he thinks the WBC is following the words of Jesus.

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But would he know? It is also easily established that Gene Robinson isnt following the words of Jesus and he is in our church. Lets not be hypocritical.

Once it is (easily) established that they are not, we can demonstrate that they are not Christians, but simply a cult using Christian motifs.

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ah, many liberals would point out you are not in a position to judge who is and isnt Christian.

brightmorningstar said:

But would he know? It is also easily established that Gene Robinson isnt following the words of Jesus and he is in our church. Lets not be hypocritical.

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Give him a Bible. Let him decide. Bet you he figures this out pretty quickly.

ah, many liberals would point out you are not in a position to judge who is and isnt Christian.

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I don't care what they think anymore. A waste of my time.

Give him a Bible. Let him decide. Bet you he figures this out pretty quickly.

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As Gene Robinson has a Bible and isnt following Jesus Christ's NT teaching why would you expect an atheist to? I mean he may acknowledge what teh Bible says even though he doesnt believe it, many atheists can, but that just shows where Gene Robinson sits. The NT warns the biggest disbelief and denial is in the church.

brightmorningstar said:

As Gene Robinson has a Bible and isnt following Jesus Christ's NT teaching why would you expect an atheist to? I mean he may acknowledge what teh Bible says even though he doesnt believe it, many atheists can, but that just shows where Gene Robinson sits. The NT warns the biggest disbelief and denial is in the church.

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This is a lot less complex that Gene Robinson's personal issues. This is simple- and Gene R will agree on this point as well.

Ask your atheist to get a Bible and look for the answer to this simple question: does Jesus anywhere in the Bible teach people to do the controversial hate-things that the WBC does? He will soon see that this is not the case, and that the WBC is clearly using the Bible as an authority for their own (or more precisely Phelp's) prejudices.

The other obvious point this atheist is missing is an exercise in objectivity- if the Bible teaches what the WBC practices, why on earth is every other Christian church, who also own Bibles, not doing the same? Rather, we see unanimous voice against the WBC from real Christians.

HisHomeMaker said:

Thanks for all of your ideas. You really helped me to form a private email response to my friend and colleague. I plagiarized many of you. I hope you don't mind.

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No worries. Let the Holy Spirit do His work on this person. Help this person along with scripture, pointing him or her to the real Jesus. Blessings to you.

Contramundum,

This is a lot less complex that Gene Robinson's personal issues. This is simple- and Gene R will agree on this point as well.

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Yet Gene Robinson and the atheist agree on homosexuality.

Ask your atheist to get a Bible and look for the answer to this simple question: does Jesus anywhere in the Bible teach people to do the controversial hate-things that the WBC does? He will soon see that this is not the case, and that the WBC is clearly using the Bible as an authority for their own (or more precisely Phelp's) prejudices.

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Sorry but I have to point out that Gene Robinson has a Bible and supports what the Bible clearly and consistently excludes and condemns, so Gene Robinson has prejudice against God.

The other obvious point this atheist is missing is an exercise in objectivity- if the Bible teaches what the WBC practices, why on earth is every other Christian church, who also own Bibles, not doing the same? Rather, we see unanimous voice against the WBC from real Christians.

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So that would question whether those like WBC and Gene Robinson are real Christians.
Better would be so say that the teaching of WBC and Gene Robinson is not false on the issue of same sex relations, therefore not Christian and not following Christ.

What one should pray for with this person is that any spirtiual barriers shall be broken. Demonstration of Christians love for each other sometimes works, but this person needs to understand what love and hate are. At present liberal secular sees God's love as hateful. The gay activists are actually just as hateful if not more so than WBC. We are seeing so many attempts, not just to get recognistion for gay matters, but to force people to accept their views
Here is one of the latest examples
Homosexual activists seek to cut off PayPal accounts of pro-family organizations | LifeSiteNews.com

And the question here is, how can we say we agree with Gene Robinson on something? I agree with WBC that same sex relations are error and wicked, thats what the Bible says. If Gene Robinson can ignore the NT teaching of Christ about same sex relations, why the fuss about WBC.

Matthew 7.. first we shoud, take the plank oout of our own eye before we look to remove the speck from WBC.

brightmorningstar said:

Matthew 7.. first we shoud, take the plank oout of our own eye before we look to remove the speck from WBC.

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I find it quite alarming that you would suggest the hatred of WBC is a 'speck' compared to love that is homosexuality. This thread wasn't even about homosexuality, why do you insist on repeatedly bringing it up?

I think reducing a man to merely a sexual preference and judging everything about them on that one aspect, does a disservice to that which is Body, Soul and Spirit and made in the image of God; a whole human person. As if heterosexuals perfectly follow the NT, as if any person is so pure, as if we make all our assumptions about straight men and women based on them being straight!

Please let's be charitable and seek the good and the godly in a man (and there is, I think, much to be found there), we should never forget that God still loves him after all...

Not that I wish to fight about this of course, we're meant to be denying hatred as a true expression of Christianity, so HHM, that sounds good, I for one would be interested to hear the response, should any be forthcoming.

Unshaven, .

I find it quite alarming that you would suggest the hatred of WBC is a 'speck' compared to love that is homosexuality.

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Ok so you don’t believe God’s word about it then. Your thinking is like the gay activists. Love is not homosexuality, same sex relations are wicked suppression of the truth.

This thread wasn't even about homosexuality, why do you insist on repeatedly bringing it up?

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Yes it was about homosexuality unless you are thinking of hate filled protests of WBC other than the ones such as at funerals of homosexuals. If you were please say which, otherwise the thread is related to homosexuality and most people would assume that with WBC.

I think reducing a man to merely a sexual preference and judging everything about them on that one aspect, does a disservice to that which is Body, Soul and Spirit and made in the image of God; a whole human person. As if heterosexuals perfectly follow the NT, as if any person is so pure, as if we make all our assumptions about straight men and women based on them being straight!

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Thats what gay activist say, but the church doesn’t necessarily say that same sex relations are worse than other sin.

Please let's be charitable and seek the good and the godly in a man (and there is, I think, much to be found there), we should never forget that God still loves him after all...

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That is what the gays activists say, but being charitable is speaking the truth. So why criticise WBC if God still loves them?

Not that I wish to fight about this of course, we're meant to be denying hatred as a true expression of Christianity, so HHM, that sounds good, I for one would be interested to hear the response, should any be forthcoming.

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Well same sex relationships are no more an expression of Christianity than saying God hates people.