Some Christians don't believe in demons

Michael Collum said:

I think i've learned quite enough from this thread . until next time folks . thanks again .

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You always seem to leave after I post.

Cuddles222 said:

Physical and mental demonic possession in the the 1st century was descibed as: a person dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. (Mark 5:3,4).

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This is ONE account though and an unusual account imo
in that this man had what? Up near 6000 demons? (Legion)

No wonder he was acting out with that many voices going on!

Ih8s8n said:

Thekla: You're welcome. However...I'm not sure that I agree with you, IF I'm understanding your position correctly. In other words, the distinction of which you speak in this passage from Matthew chapter 4 is a distinction between "those which were possessed with devils" and "those which were lunatic".



Quite frankly, I'm not sure if there really is a distinction, for later on, we read:

"And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: FOR HE IS A LUNATIC, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. AND JESUS REBUKED THE DEVIL; AND HE DEPARTED OUT OF HIM: and the child was cured from that very hour." (Matthew 17:14-18)

Here, when dealing with a lunatic, Jesus still cast the devil out of him. Anyhow, like I said, I'm not sure that I'm even understanding your position correctly, but I really don't see a difference between the two in the Biblical record.

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That the two are distinguished in Matthew is crucial.
IMO, demonic assault can look like any other "illness" -- or to put it another way, there is more than one way to get to a symptom. There are, for example psychosis and also conditions that may look symptomatically like psychosis but are not (ex., severe deficiency of nutrients, drug reaction, psychological vs. psychiatric conditions, etc.) Likewise, the symptomatic or actually phenomenological descriptive "lunacy" does not necessarily identify origin or cause, but observable behaviors.

That all illness (as before) had its origin in the fall does indicate that the origin of illness is not God and in this sense any illness has its origin in "the demonic". Likewise, the weakness of illness can make one more vulnerable perhaps to assault (imo, we are all ill). But to say that lunacy is always demonic in origin would recommend that also heart disease, diabetes, autism, mental retardation, etc. are demonic possession.

sunlover1 said:

Devil loves it when people think he's an innocuous cartoon character with a pointy tail..
that way they wont stand against him and he has them by the tail, to do as he
sees fit, captive, trapped, living a life filled with bondage.
I see many many Christians living this way.. Poo pooing "spiritual things".
They think that the seen things are more powerful or permanent I guess.
When in truth, the unseen CONTROLS the seen...

imo

(cool thread!)

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Agreed.

Thekla said:

That the two are distinguished in Matthew is crucial.
IMO, demonic assault can look like any other "illness" -- or to put it another way, there is more than one way to get to a symptom. There are, for example psychosis and also conditions that may look symptomatically like psychosis but are not (ex., severe deficiency of nutrients, drug reaction, psychological vs. psychiatric conditions, etc.) Likewise, the symptomatic or actually phenomenological descriptive "lunacy" does not necessarily identify origin or cause, but observable behaviors.

That all illness (as before) had its origin in the fall does indicate that the origin of illness is not God and in this sense any illness has its origin in "the demonic". Likewise, the weakness of illness can make one more vulnerable perhaps to assault (imo, we are all ill). But to say that lunacy is always demonic in origin would recommend that also heart disease, diabetes, autism, mental retardation, etc. are demonic possession.

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Good point.

sunlover1 said:

This is ONE account though and an unusual account imo
in that this man had what? Up near 6000 demons? (Legion)

No wonder he was acting out with that many voices going on!

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Wonder how 6000 demons made it into only 2000 swine

http://www.christianforums.com/t7256012-15/#post47689189


Mark 5:11 And there was there, near the mountains, a great herd of swine feeding,
12 and all the demons did call upon him, saying, `Send us to the swine, that into them we may enter;'
13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea--and they were about two thousand--and they were choked in the sea.

Thekla said:

That the two are distinguished in Matthew is crucial.
IMO, demonic assault can look like any other "illness" -- or to put it another way, there is more than one way to get to a symptom. There are, for example psychosis and also conditions that may look symptomatically like psychosis but are not (ex., severe deficiency of nutrients, drug reaction, psychological vs. psychiatric conditions, etc.) Likewise, the symptomatic or actually phenomenological descriptive "lunacy" does not necessarily identify origin or cause, but observable behaviors.

That all illness (as before) had its origin in the fall does indicate that the origin of illness is not God and in this sense any illness has its origin in "the demonic". Likewise, the weakness of illness can make one more vulnerable perhaps to assault (imo, we are all ill). But to say that lunacy is always demonic in origin would recommend that also heart disease, diabetes, autism, mental retardation, etc. are demonic possession.

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When in fact we do reap what we sow as well.
What I do is try to figure out if it's reaping or an attack.
IMO God will use either of these things to my benefit btw.
Deal with both of those differently. If it's reaping, I go
to the father and cry out for mercy.. If it's demonic I
do as Jesus did and use the authority we have in His name.
IMO

LittleLambofJesus said:

Wonder how 6000 demons made it into only 2000 swine

http://www.christianforums.com/t7256012-15/#post47689189


Mark 5:11 And there was there, near the mountains, a great herd of swine feeding,
12 and all the demons did call upon him, saying, `Send us to the swine, that into them we may enter;'
13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea--and they were about two thousand--and they were choked in the sea.

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And spirits dont die.. If there were 6000 or so there,....
how many are "out there" lol.. but the good news is, we
have God inside and angels and every wonderful promise
we can think of IF we know and believe.. That's why It's
SOOO Important to study and know what we have. It's
the truth we know that sets us free imo.

OpenDoor said:

Hey Ih8ss8n
This page does a good job at explaining (basically) my position.

Can a Christian be demon possessed? Can a Christian be demonized?

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OpenDoor: From your link:

Question: "Can a Christian be demon possessed? Can a Christian be demonized?"

Answer: While the Bible does not explicitly state whether a Christian can be possessed by a demon, related biblical truths make it abundantly clear that Christians cannot be demon possessed. There is a distinct difference between being possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon. Demon possession involves a demon having direct/complete control over the thoughts and/or actions of a person (Matthew 17:14-18; Luke 4:33-35; 8:27-33). Demon oppression or influence involves a demon or demons attacking a person spiritually and/or encouraging him/her into sinful behavior. Notice that in all the New Testament passages dealing with spiritual warfare, there are no instructions to cast a demon out of a believer (Ephesians 6:10-18). Believers are told to resist the devil (James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:8-9), not to cast him out.

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A couple of things. First of all, the Greek word that is translated as "possessed by a devil" in the King James Version of the Bible is "daimonizomai" and it would better be translated as "demonized". In other words, a demon need not possess the temple/body in which it dwells, but only be "given place" there. Paul, when writing to the CHRISTIANS at Ephesus, used such terminology, for we read:

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesus 4:26-27)

Maybe it's just me (I doubt it), but when I read how one's wrath can "give place to the devil", my mind immediately goes back to Genesis chapter 4, where we read:

"And the LORD said unto Cain, WHY ART THOU WROTH? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted: and if thou doest not well, SIN LIETH AT THE DOOR. AND UNTO THEE SHALL BE HIS DESIRE, AND THOU SHALT RULE OVER HIM." (Genesis 4:6-7)

Here, sin is PERSONIFIED. In regards to the sin that is lying at the door, we read of "his desire" and how Cain must rule "over him". This is no coincidence, for elsewhere we read how Cain "was of that wicked one" (I John 3:12) Anyhow, as I said, "possession" isn't really what's seeking to be conveyed in many of the New Testament passages, but, rather, demonization. As I type, due to an ongoing lawsuit involving mold in my now unlivable house, I'm renting out part of somebody else's house with my family. We don't "possess" this place, but we have certainly been "given place" here. Big difference and this is precisely what Paul warned CHRISTIANS about.

Secondly, the author that you've provided a link to couldn't possibly have picked worse verses to back his assertions. For example, Ephesians 6:10-18 is not only preceded by Paul's admonition to "neither give place to the devil", but it also tells us how we need spiritual armor to fight against our spiritual enemies. Who's to say that a refusal to do so won't "give place" to them? What about James 4:7? Did the author of your linked article ever bother reading the verses which precede this one?

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife IN YOUR HEARTS, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, DEVILISH." (James 3:10-15)

After telling these CHRISTIANS (my brethren) that there was something DEVILISH IN THEIR HEARTS, he went on to say the following:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; AND PURIFY YOUR HEARTS, ye double-minded." (James 4:7-8)

It certainly seems to me that this "resisting of the devil" was in conjuction with them PURIFYING THEIR HEARTS by removing that which was DEVILISH IN THEIR HEARTS. You know, THE SAME FOUNTAIN bringing forth that which was sweet and bitter.

Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19). Surely the Holy Spirit would not allow a demon to possess the same person He is indwelling. It is unthinkable that God would allow one of His children, whom He purchased with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19) and made into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), to be possessed and controlled by a demon. Yes, as believers, we wage war with Satan and his demons, but not from within ourselves. The apostle John declares, “You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world” (1 John 4:4). Who is the One in us? The Holy Spirit. Who is the one in the world? Satan and his demons. Therefore, the believer has overcome the world of demons, and the case for demon possession of a believer cannot be made scripturally.

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In a previous post, I already provided examples of how God and an unclean spirit can share the same habitation. Again, since demons are seen in the very throne room of God, who's to say that they cannot dwell within the body of a believer? I also showed you where Paul told Christians to CLEANSE THEMSELVES of all filthiness OF THE SPIRIT...AFTER telling them that they were the very temple of the living God.

Yes, John did tell the Christians to whom he was writing that "greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world", but WHY did he tell them that? The main purpose of his epistle seems to be to keep them from being SEDUCED BY LYING SPIRITS. You know, the type of whom Paul wrote, when he said:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." (I Timothy 4:1)

I don't know what your position is regarding "once saved, always saved", but I'll plainly tell you mine. It is one of the most, if not the most, potentially damnable heresies of all time. Christians can, have and will "depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils". Do the math, would you? A Christian can go from being a child of God to being a child of the devil and, yet, you and others believe that Christians can't be inhabited by a demon? Doesn't add up. Never has. Never will.

Anyhow, it's been a long day for me. I'll try to get to the rest of your link later this evening or some time tomorrow.

SullivanZ said:

The reason no possession was mentioned in the Old Testament was simply due to something called progressive revelation. That is why satan and his cronies almost never appear directly in the Old Testament, despite having more reign then than they do now. The people simply did not know they were there.

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No, actually it's because in Judaism and the OT, Satan is part of the Divine Council. He is God's divine prosecutor who places temptations before humanity on God's behalf. Angels have no free will (and thus never rebelled). The fallen angel myth didn't begin until the Book of Enoch in the 2nd and 3rd Century BC, and the dualistic view of God vs. Satan came from the Persians.

Satan is not evil in the Tanakh.

sunlover1 said:

When in fact we do reap what we sow as well.
What I do is try to figure out if it's reaping or an attack.
IMO God will use either of these things to my benefit btw.
Deal with both of those differently. If it's reaping, I go
to the father and cry out for mercy.. If it's demonic I
do as Jesus did and use the authority we have in His name.
IMO

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Agreed - that's an important aspect I didn't address.

In all of these, it is best to turn to God.
All can be healed by the Healer - and in Him, all can be opportunities eventually for our spiritual benefit.

sunlover1 said:

And spirits dont die.. If there were 6000 or so there,....
how many are "out there"

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One demon, under the questioning of an exorcist, stated that if all demons were to become visible, they are so numerous they would block out the sun.

Thekla said:

But to say that lunacy is always demonic in origin would recommend that also heart disease, diabetes, autism, mental retardation, etc. are demonic possession.

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Thekla: I did not say "that lunacy is always demonic in origin". I simply addressed the "distinction" that you sought to make from Matthew chapter 4 and showed how that, later on, in the same gospel of Matthew, Jesus dealt with "lunacy" by casting the devil out of a boy. In this sense (Biblically speaking), I fail to see the "distinction" as there apparently is none. In other instances? Well, I prefer to deal with each instance separately. I merely addressed what you specifically addressed.

By the way, and I had to mention this somewhere, my interest in this topic goes WAY BEYOND the Theological. Jesus was moved with compassion. I don't know about any of the rest of you, as I've never met any of you personally, but I've encountered MULTITUDES of people who were/are oppressed, sick, tormented, vexed, etc., etc., etc. The days of me praying, "Lord, bless the doctor's hands..." are long gone. By the grace of God and through the power/name of Christ, I've been able to help some of these people (those who would let me, through Christ) via the avenue of deliverance. As such, mine isn't a "Theological argument", but a way of life over about a 22 year span. You'll (all of you) find me to be immovable on this topic as the verdict potentially affects the well-being of others. Not meant specifically/solely for you, but as an FYI to all.

Good night.

Vendetta said:

One demon, under the questioning of an exorcist, stated that if all demons were to become visible, they are so numerous they would block out the sun.

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Wow, some big bragging going on there huh?
But of course then we know that this statement is false lol.
(Source is a liar by nature)

Ih8s8n said:

Thekla: I did not say "that lunacy is always demonic in origin". I simply addressed the "distinction" that you sought to make from Matthew chapter 4 and showed how that, later on, in the same gospel of Matthew, Jesus dealt with "lunacy" by casting the devil out of a boy. In this sense (Biblically speaking), I fail to see the "distinction" as there apparently is none. In other instances? Well, I prefer to deal with each instance separately. I merely addressed what you specifically addressed.

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Sorry I wasn't very clear. The passage in Matthew denotes lunacy as distinct from demonic possession. The use of the term lunacy is also a behavioral or symptomatic descriptive -- to denote the origin of the symptom is another matter. Likewise "fits", flow of blood, or palsy are symptomatic descriptives.

By the way, and I had to mention this somewhere, my interest in this topic goes WAY BEYOND the Theological. Jesus was moved with compassion. I don't know about any of the rest of you, as I've never met any of you personally, but I've encountered MULTITUDES of people who were/are oppressed, sick, tormented, vexed, etc., etc., etc. The days of me praying, "Lord, bless the doctor's hands..." are long gone. By the grace of God and through the power/name of Christ, I've been able to help some of these people (those who would let me, through Christ) via the avenue of deliverance. As such, mine isn't a "Theological argument", but a way of life over about a 22 year span. You'll (all of you) find me to be immovable on this topic as the verdict potentially affects the well-being of others. Not meant specifically/solely for you, but as an FYI to all.

Good night.

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Thanks for the explanation, and that is understandable. What some people go through is truly heart wrenching; as a "PK", I can also say that many people who "seem fine" actually carry great pain.
What a blessing that some were healed - but those who were not do deserve our ongoing compassion, and decent treatment.
I do think the mentally ill are especially subject to charges of "demonic" activity, and also particularly sensitive to such charges.
God can heal all - and sometimes the answer to fervent prayer is a good doctor; a longer spiritual struggle perhaps, but whatever the answer to prayer God gives (whether we like it or not) is for our ultimate spiritual benefit. Like Paul, whose thorn was not removed ...

Ih8s8n said:

The days of me praying, "Lord, bless the doctor's hands..." are long gone. By the grace of God and through the power/name of Christ, I've been able to help some of these people

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Amen.
We as kings/priests are called to BE His hands...
to carry God's power and glory on this earth.
To bring His love to the masses!
Glory!!!

sunlover1 said:

vendetta said:

One demon, under the questioning of an exorcist, stated that if all demons were to become visible, they are so numerous they would block out the sun.
​

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Wow, some big bragging going on there huh?
But of course then we know that this statement is false lol.
(Source is a liar by nature)

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What's this? "sunlover" vs. "sunblocker"? I might have to side with the "sunblockers" on this one. Afterall, I burn easily.

Good night.

Demons can lie, but they can also sometimes tell the truth (unless it's about God, Jesus and the Way, then they always lie). They'll do whatever they can to turn people away from the Truth.

Demons, or devils, whatever you wish to call them (some say they're the departed souls of the earthbound Nephilim, who knows) can possess Christians. However, one has to be seriously opening one's self up to very demonic entities and almost intentionally inviting them in. (I would not advise that.) The reason how this is possible is simple: They do not possess a human's SPIRIT (God merges with our spirit, not our soul). Demons can only take possession of the soul, which is mostly the mind, will and intellect of a person - not their core essence or being, which is to say, your spirit. However, they are often oppressing believers (which can mean 'demonizing' them), which is most of their busy work here on earth. They seem to enjoy vexing believers and destroying both believers and non-believers alike; they obviously hate humans. One reason is because we have a body; they don't. There's many more, of course.

I do feel compelled to mention the following account:
among my good friends is a woman who was formerly a fervently devout born again Christian. She developed mental illness, and sought healing from this among those of her fellowship. There were several attempts through prayer, all unsuccessful. Finally she was told that in some sense she was "blocking" the healing; heartbroken, she now cannot stand to hear the name of Christ. Yet her values are still Christian, and I do not think it is Christ she is repulsed by - but the representation of Christ she learned from those who unsuccessfully tried to heal her through prayer.

I am thankful for all the hands God uses - even those of the medical field.
And I always pray for treatment teams - spiritual, medical, and the family.

"Have any of you run into christians who feel demons are simply a way Jesus and his disciples helped people deal with psychiatric problems by calling them demons and casting them out, was simply a way to teach those backward superstitious people how to deal with psychosis"

The problem with this question (if you really want a truthful and accurate answer, that is) and the resulting thread, is the same old "it-is-a-matter-of-belief" thing......

No one can prove that "daemons" do not exist any more than anyone can prove that they do....

Those who believe will say everything from epilepsy to cancer to obesity to acne is caused by daemonic activity. Those who do not believe will offer a more objective, medical explanation for such things.....