Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

Gary51 said:

The ones that you plainly don't understand.

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You have not presented any facts for anyone to consider and understand. This response shows you have no cogent reply to the two passages I posted. God himself was speaking in those passage, when God speaks I listen. Do you?

Rocky1960 said:

Agreed.

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I hate to interrupt the love-fest, but you two could try reading the context of Ezekiel.

Gary51 said:

And yet you do!

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That is two meaningless replies. You have NOT shown that I do anything! As I said I posted two passages of scripture where God himself is speaking which show the dead in Sheol, moving, speaking, seeing, having feelings, etc. and you have NOT even made an attempt to address them.

Der Alter said:

Which facts exactly do you rely on? In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
​

9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31)Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
​

I quoted scripture that makes it biblical, and very true. God himself is speaking in both passages!

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I noticed that you didn't also quote Isaiah 14:8, Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’

The passage you reference as "proving" dead people are conscious also "proves" that trees can talk.

Timothew said:

I hate to interrupt the love-fest, but you two could try reading the context of Ezekiel.

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If you think you can, enlighten us on the "context of Ezekiel" which would change what God said in Ezek 32:18-31?

Timothew said:

I noticed that you didn't also quote Isaiah 14:8, Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’

The passage you reference as "proving" dead people are conscious also "proves" that trees can talk.

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Meaningless objection. One figure of speech in a passage does NOT make the entire passage figurative. The king of Babble-on actually, literally died! He was actually,literally buried! The people he oppressed actually, literally rejoiced! And at some point the worms actually, literally covered his body. God is NOT covered with feathers although he said he would shelter his people under his wings. Since the passage is filled with literal, actual events if you want to dismiss something as figurative you have to PROVE, not assume it.

Gary51 said:

au contraire, they both have meaning!

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That is now four absolutely meaningless replies! Goodbye!

The dead know nothing

Der Alter said:

If you think you can, enlighten us on the "context of Ezekiel" which would change what God said in Ezek 32:18-31?

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I don't know if I can enlighten you Der Alter! I've been trying for months and you seem "unenlightenable"! But I'll sure try, just because I love you so much. The first step is to read the whole chapter. Reading the whole book would be even better, but this is CF.

Lament over Pharaoh and Egypt

1In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying,

2“Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him,
‘You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations,
Yet you are like the monster in the seas;
And you burst forth in your rivers
And muddied the waters with your feet
And fouled their rivers.’”
3Thus says the Lord GOD,
“Now I will spread My net over you
With a company of many peoples,
And they shall lift you up in My net.
4“I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you,
And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5“I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6“I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood
As far as the mountains,
And the ravines will be full of you.
7“And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
8“All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord GOD.

9“I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples when I bring your destruction among the nations, into lands which you have not known. 10“I will make many peoples appalled at you, and their kings will be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they will tremble every moment, every man for his own life, on the day of your fall.”
11For thus says the Lord GOD, “The sword of the king of Babylon will come upon you.
12“By the swords of the mighty ones I will cause your hordes to fall; all of them are tyrants of the nations,
And they will devastate the pride of Egypt,
And all its hordes will be destroyed.
13“I will also destroy all its cattle from beside many waters;
And the foot of man will not muddy them anymore
And the hoofs of beasts will not muddy them.
14“Then I will make their waters settle
And will cause their rivers to run like oil,”
Declares the Lord GOD.
15“When I make the land of Egypt a desolation,
And the land is destitute of that which filled it,
When I smite all those who live in it,
Then they shall know that I am the LORD.

16“This is a lamentation and they shall chant it. The daughters of the nations shall chant it. Over Egypt and over all her hordes they shall chant it,” declares the Lord GOD.
17In the twelfth year, on the fifteenth of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, 18“Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and bring it down, her and the daughters of the powerful nations, to the nether world, with those who go down to the pit;
19‘Whom do you surpass in beauty?
Go down and make your bed with the uncircumcised.’

20“They shall fall in the midst of those who are slain by the sword. She is given over to the sword; they have drawn her and all her hordes away. 21“The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, ‘They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
22“Assyria is there and all her company; her graves are round about her. All of them are slain, fallen by the sword, 23whose graves are set in the remotest parts of the pit and her company is round about her grave. All of them are slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living.
24“Elam is there and all her hordes around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, who instilled their terror in the land of the living and bore their disgrace with those who went down to the pit. 25“They have made a bed for her among the slain with all her hordes. Her graves are around it, they are all uncircumcised, slain by the sword (although their terror was instilled in the land of the living), and they bore their disgrace with those who go down to the pit; they were put in the midst of the slain.
26“Meshech, Tubal and all their hordes are there; their graves surround them. All of them were slain by the sword uncircumcised, though they instilled their terror in the land of the living. 27“Nor do they lie beside the fallen heroes of the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war and whose swords were laid under their heads; but the punishment for their iniquity rested on their bones, though the terror of these heroes was once in the land of the living. 28“But in the midst of the uncircumcised you will be broken and lie with those slain by the sword.
29“There also is Edom, its kings and all its princes, who for all their might are laid with those slain by the sword; they will lie with the uncircumcised and with those who go down to the pit.
30“There also are the chiefs of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who in spite of the terror resulting from their might, in shame went down with the slain. So they lay down uncircumcised with those slain by the sword and bore their disgrace with those who go down to the pit. 31“These Pharaoh will see, and he will be comforted for all his hordes slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his army,” declares the Lord GOD. 32“Though I instilled a terror of him in the land of the living, yet he will be made to lie down among the uncircumcised along with those slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his hordes,” declares the Lord GOD.

The first clue is the word lamentation. Do people lament over the living or the dead? The dead right? So what is God saying to Pharaoh? You will die. But what did Pharaohs usually believe? That their spirits will go to another land. God says No, you will die.

I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you,
And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.

What is this saying? You will die.

"And when I extinguish you," like a flame doesn't exist anymore after it is extinguished, neigher will Pharaoh exist anymore after God extinguishes him.

"when I bring your destruction" Not eternal torture!

"By the swords of the mighty ones I will cause your hordes to fall; all of them are tyrants of the nations,
And they will devastate the pride of Egypt,
And all its hordes will be destroyed"

Looks like God is planning something bad for Egypt, destruction perhaps? Unless you twist the words to say destruction aint really destruction, it's eternal life as a ghosty.

"This is a lamentation and they shall chant it. The daughters of the nations shall chant it. Over Egypt and over all her hordes they shall chant it,” declares the Lord GOD"
This sounds just like the taunt of Isaiah, for your other out of context passage! Perhaps Isaiah and Exekiel are saying the same thing? That's good because they are both prophets of God.

“Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and bring it down, her and the daughters of the powerful nations, to the nether world, with those who go down to the pit; " Oh what can this mean? The pit must mean hell! But no! read on my brother! "They shall fall in the midst of those who are slain by the sword." Slain? Dead? The pit is death. Sheol, the pit, hades, all of these are pictures of death.

"Assyria is there and all her company; her graves are round about her."
Do ghosty ghoulies need graves or do dead people? Just dead people.

This is a taunt against Pharaoh, You will die, you will be killed by Israel and your Spirit-Religion will not help you.

"Elam is there and all her hordes around her grave" Egypt is no better than all the other nations, all the preparations for the dead, mummification, none of that will save Pharaoh from death.

"These Pharaoh will see, and he will be comforted for all his hordes slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his army,” declares the Lord GOD. “Though I instilled a terror of him in the land of the living, yet he will be made to lie down among the uncircumcised along with those slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his hordes,” declares the Lord GOD."

This is a taunt, Pharaoh will die. He will "see" his dead army, because he will die. He will be just as dead as they are.

Der Alter said:

Meaningless objection. One figure of speech in a passage does NOT make the entire passage figurative.

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It's not a meaningless objection, it proves that Isaiah used figures of speech. Since we know he used figures of speech, it is not a stretch to say Isaiah uses figures of speech to describe the dead. The King of Babylon can't walk, talk, dance, or eat donuts after he is dead!

If Not For Grace said:

The dead know nothing

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Neither do a lot of people around here.

Dorothea said:

Except it reads in the Bible that Rachel cried for her children in shoal after her repose on earth. Not only was she conscious but was also aware of what was happening on earth.

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How silly is that?

Able's blood cried out also.

Give me a break.

RibI said:

Neither do a lot of people around here.

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Dorothea said:

Except it reads in the Bible that Rachel cried for her children in shoal after her repose on earth. Not only was she conscious but was also aware of what was happening on earth.

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RibI said:

How silly is that?

Able's blood cried out also.

Give me a break.

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What is silly to my eyes is that the young lady made a thoughtful statement, and you replied with mocking, and with faces with tounges sticking out.

Rocky1960 said:

What is silly to my eyes is that the young lady made a thoughtful? statement, and you replied with mocking, and with faces with tounges sticking out.

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How cool is that?

Rocky1960 said:

What is silly to my eyes is that the young lady made a thoughtful statement, and you replied with mocking, and with faces with tongues sticking out.

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Unfortunately, this kind of attitude is common on GT. If one cannot answer with a logical, well-thought out, and scriptural supported response, then many resort to such behavior. That is why I think the suggestion of "Can you post that in the name of Jesus?" by the member sbvd should be added to the site as a reminder of just Who we represent.