Death

You may also be helped by the discovery in the Oracles committed to the namesake people of the New Man name, that the True Ark of the Covenant is ----[drumroll please]---- The adopted Saints!

Everything in the Law is a living oracle about the Person and work of Christ, our High King and High Priest/ our Kinsman-Redeemer/ "the God of the whole earth", as second Man, named "Israel", who is "EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL" =God, the Mighty God, Israel"

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

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When we are adopted, we become the True Ark of the everlasting Covenant, and as in the type that Moses made, in which the Testimony/Witness and the Decalogue were sealed and bound, we are also sealed and bound with the True Testimony and the True Law written on our New Man hearts, while we await, hidden in Christ with God, as His True Ark of the Covenant, to come forth in His New Man image on that Day when He opens the Ark and we come forth in the New Man image, so to speak.

Isaiah 8: 13-
The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.

And he will become a sanctuary, and a stone of offense, and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

And many shall stumble thereon; they shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken."
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
And I will wait on the Lord, who hides His face from the house of Jacob; and I will hope in Him. Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells in Mount Zion.

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Types for teaching us about being the True Ark of the Covenant, encased in plated gold, made of wood, and crowned with the solid gold crown, and under the "Head/Cover/ -our Firstborn Father- of solid Gold, incorruptible, hidden, and waiting in "pupa" stage, metamorphosing from glory to glory while He is changing us, are all through the Torah and Jesus' Gospel, and in the letters of the NT.

To be a disciple/student is to be a "pupil", which is from the word "pupa". Just as the "pupa" is encased in the crysalis [from the word for "gold"], so we who are "dead" and are made alive in Christ, are, until the opening of the True Ark of the Covenant, "hid with Christ in God", sealed with that Holy Spirit of Witness, and with the True New Man heart, on which is written the Law of the New Man, and as born again in Christ believers, we are entered into the True Sabbath Rest of His Peace, with God [as Hebrews 4 teaches us]..

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Plumbing the depths of the Word is where true riches are found, for our instruction, but as "Salvation is of the Jews", we can know nothing if we do not learn the Living Oracles and what they mean for our redemption in Christ, who is the "end/goal" of the Torah.

In fact, if we dare to be "teachers" in His Church, then we are required to learn the abc's of the Oracles, for our instruction in Christ and His work for our redemption.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

yeshuasavedme said:

You may also be helped by the discovery in the Oracles committed to the namesake people of the New Man name, that the True Ark of the Covenant is ----[drumroll please]---- The adopted Saints!

Everything in the Law is a living oracle about the Person and work of Christ, our High King and High Priest/ our Kinsman-Redeemer/ "the God of the whole earth", as second Man, named "Israel", who is "EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL" =God, the Mighty God, Israel"


When we are adopted, we become the True Ark of the everlasting Covenant, and as in the type that Moses made, in which the Testimony/Witness and the Decalogue were sealed and bound, we are also sealed and bound with the True Testimony and the True Law written on our New Man hearts, while we await, hidden in Christ with God, as His True Ark of the Covenant, to come forth in His New Man image on that Day when He opens the Ark and we come forth in the New Man image, so to speak.

Types for teaching us about being the True Ark of the Covenant, encased in plated gold, made of wood, and crowned with the solid gold crown, and under the "Head/Cover/ -our Firstborn Father- of solid Gold, incorruptible, hidden, and waiting in "pupa" stage, metamorphosing from glory to glory while He is changing us, are all through the Torah and Jesus' Gospel, and in the letters of the NT.

To be a disciple/student is to be a "pupil", which is from the word "pupa". Just as the "pupa" is encased in the crysalis [from the word for "gold"], so we who are "dead" and are made alive in Christ, are, until the opening of the True Ark of the Covenant, "hid with Christ in God", sealed with that Holy Spirit of Witness, and with the True New Man heart, on which is written the Law of the New Man, and as born again in Christ believers, we are entered into the True Sabbath Rest of His Peace, with God [as Hebrews 4 teaches us]..

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Plumbing the depths of the Word is where true riches are found, for our instruction, but as "Salvation is of the Jews", we can know nothing if we do not learn the Living Oracles and what they mean for our redemption in Christ, who is the "end/goal" of the Torah.

In fact, if we dare to be "teachers" in His Church, then we are required to learn the abc's of the Oracles, for our instruction in Christ and His work for our redemption.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

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Murjaheel. You would benefit greatly [I think], in studying the truths of the Oracles, as Messianic Jews who have grasped them can teach them. Not all do, but many do, and many have glimpses that others have more glimpses of, that, together, make a whole part of the understanding of Christ and His Redeemed, represented in the Mercy Seat Cover and the Ark under it, as typed by Moses.


We who are "Hid with Christ in God" are the True Mercy Seat, and in our born again in Christ hearts the True Witness and "Torah/Word" are sealed and bound. Being "Hid in with Christ in God", we are being changed, that is, morphosed, from" glory to glory", by the Spirit in us and us in Him, while we await the day of our emergence/complete metamorphosis into the image of the New Man body of Christ, when we receive the "crown of Gold" -which is LIFE, in the body of immortality that we have the promise of, by the taste of Glory sent, when we are born again.

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Chrysalis is "gold", and a pupa is undergoing metamorphosis of the elements of its life, while hid in the chrysalis.
From pupa we get "student/pupil/disciple", and while we are Hid with Christ in God, we are undergoing metamorphosis by His Spirit in us, and we will "emerge" from the Ark in the image of Christ's New Man body.
When that happens, the "Ark of the Covenant" -we who are now hid with Christ in God- will be seen in the temple in heaven.
Rev 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Typology is rich in the Word, for what the Person and Work of Christ in flesh means, for us, in the redemption of us and in the translation of us, elementally, into the New Man body, like His.

When we come to the True Mercy Seat in heaven, we are coming by His Living Spirit in us, to Christ, sitting on His throne as Our Head/Firstborn, in His New Creation Human being body of flesh; and in that flesh, He is the "Everlasting Father" of us who are adopted into His Living Spirit.

murjahel said:

"Mercy seat"
comes from the Greek word
"hilasterion"
which means
"place where sin is satisfied..."​

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The Greek word "hilasterion" is from the Hebrew Word which means "Mercy Seat", and also the offering upon it.
So we are covered by the blood of Christ when we are "under His Cover", hid with Him, as the true Ark of the Covenant, undergoing metamorphosis while we are in the Ark/chrysalis of our "discipleship".

Exd 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat [of] pure gold: two cubits and a half [shall be] the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. ...
Exd 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. ...
Exd 25:40 And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth/προτίθημι protithēmi [to be] [a/the] propitiation/ἱλαστήριον hilastērion =Mercy Seat] through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
propitiation/ἱλαστήριον hilastērion a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement

On the Cross, Jesus was "set forth" as our true Mercy Seat.
He was "lifted up from the earth, so as to draw all men unto Him" by the public display of His body on the cross as the Mercy Seat for our Atonement, once, for all.

set forth/προτίθημι protithēmi 1) to place before, to set forth
a) to set forth to be looked at, expose to view
b) to expose to public view
1) of the bodies of the dead
2) to let lie in state


Now look at Psalm 118, describing the Day the LORD hath prepared, from the foundation of the world, when our God was bound to the horns of the altar of sacrifice, to become our entrance into the City of God and our Salvation/Yeshua, as "the Stone which the builders rejected".

When Jesus ascended, His work as Firstborn and High Priest for our atonement/Peace with God was completed. The is proven by the Word, and the fact of the resurrection of His own body which was and is the True Mercy Seat, incorruptible, and of the saints He gathered from the dead to take into the temple in heaven to fulfill "First of Firstfruits as typed in the Law. His Work was finished on the cross, and there was nothing more to do in heaven to finish the Work, but to go celebrate there as the Everlasting Father and High Priest of earth, bringing the sheaves gathered as the wave offering as the Law typed, for that Day.

murjahel said:

The saints who had earlier died and gone to Paradise within the earth

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No Way! Paradise -Eden-is above, in the heavenly -stretched out breadth- of this earth.

Paradise is what Adam lost, in the fall, not what he went to when he died and descended to Sheol to the place of waiting for the Atonement which was to come.

The word paradise comes from the same root as the Hebrew word Pardes, meaning orchard. http://www.e-therapies.net/articles/Healin_In_The_Four_Worlds.pdf

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Paradise is what Jesus came to ransom us back for, by putting away the remembrance of sin by the Atonement; and so, then, cleansing us in souls, and adopting us into His One New Man by His One Living Spirit; and by that finished work to give us the entrance into Eden, as adopted sons of God, which is where we got cast out of, and down to the earth below, when we fell in Adam, our first father, from whose loins we have sprung in our appointed seasons.

Enoch saw the Garden of God and it was not in Sheol below, and Enoch saw the Watchers who dwell there, interceding for men; and he longed to go there with great desire, and was granted to go there by the Son of Man [the Prince of Peace, who was to come in flesh] by being translated in spirit and flesh, so that he could be in the congregation of the sons of God on high.
That is the destiny of the redeemed, to be in the congregation of the sons of God, which is what we were created to be, in Adam.

Enoch visits the Garden of Eden, which is Paradise which Adam lost access to as a fallen defiled, former son of God [of the human being kind]

The Garden of Righteousness
32 And after these fragrant odours, as I looked towards the north over the mountains I saw seven mountains full of choice nard and fragrant trees and cinnamon and pepper. 2And thence I went over the summits of all these mountains, far towards the east of the earth, and passed above the Erythraean sea and went far from it, and passed over the angel Zotiel.

3And I came to the Garden [Paradise] of Righteousness, and saw beyond those trees many large trees growing there and of goodly fragrance, large, very beautiful and glorious, and the tree of wisdom whereof they eat and know great wisdom. 4That tree is in height like the fir, and its leaves are like those of the Carob tree: and its fruit is like the clusters of the vine, very beautiful: and the fragrance of the tree penetrates afar.
5Then I said: "How beautiful is the tree, and how attractive is its look!"
6Then Raphael the holy angel, who was with me, answered me and said: "This is the tree of wisdom, of which thy father old in years and thy aged mother, who were before thee, have eaten, and they learnt wisdom and their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked and they were driven out of the garden."

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murjahel said:

The Jews taught that the spirit
hovered about the body for three days after death.​

This is likely the reason why Jesus
waited until the fourth day to resurrect Lazarus,
so the Jews could not claim that Lazarus
was not truly dead.​

Here, in the "Prophecy of Ezra",
we are told that the spirits
of the righteous have up to 7 days
of being shown things
before they arrive at the habitation where
they were to go, in that day it was paradise. ​

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So Jesus did not descend to Sheol below, in that view, for three days and three nights, when His soul departed His incorruptible flesh, New Man body?

You put out an awful lot of stuff that is not backed up with any Scripture, and which contradicts Scripture.


You forgot that there is "death/θάνατος thanatos" the state of being dead, which is a separation, and the separation from the Glory happened at the fall of our first father, and so, passed to all we, who are his seed, and is ended at the finished work of the cross, in that we are born again in Spirit, but not yet in body, so θάνατος thanatos continues in this body of death, which we wear, in Adam. We have the promise of the end of θάνατος thanatos for our bodies, at the time of our "change, whether at resurrection of the elements of our dust bodies from death, or the change of them at the rapture of the living.

-θάνατος thanatos of spirit is why the righteous held in Sheol below could ascend into Paradise in heaven's realm immediately, when Jesus finished the work on the cross, and died, because the veil was rent and the walls of partition were cast down -which was signed in the earthquake at His death. As soon as He died, He delivered the sins nd iniquities laid on His soul to Azazel below, and the saints held in captivity were set free to ascend to PAradise above, as born again in Spirit "perfected" saints who have their habitation in the City of God, on Mount Zion which is Mount Eden, of the heavenly realm.


For that reason, the thief on the cross could immediately, at his own death on the cross, ascend into Paradise above, where the Son of Man was, who was also come down to earth incarnate in New Man flesh and doing the Work He came to do for the ransom of our souls and bodies and the adoption of us into His One Living Spirit; and at that time of the thief's ascent into Paradise, The soul of Jesus the Christ come in flesh, was already descended into Sheol below.
How can that be, that the thief could ascend into Paradise above to be with the Son of Man there, and the Son of Man come in flesh be in Sheol, below? -Because the Son of Man/God the Word, is in the New Man nature, but not out of heaven, and is in both heaven and in the New Man nature, simultaneously, as Jesus shows us in John 3:13.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

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murjahel said:

Sheol is shown in the Bible to include
hell,
paradise (Abraham's bosom),
a great gulf (pit or abyss),
and the garden of Eden.​

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You have no Scripture that says any such thing: Zero, Nada, None!
-and Enoch contradicts you, also, as I posted.
Paradise is "orchard -garden", and Mount Eden is in the heavenly realm of this earth, as Enoch showed us in his writings, for he visited it, and is living there with the Watchers.

Abraham's "bosom" was comfort for the beggar Lazarus, not the Garden of Eden which Adam got cast down from at the fall.
Eden was not put in Sheol below earth when Adam fell, but Adam was shut out of it so that he could not eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and so, live forever in the dead, defiled, ruined, fallen flesh, cut off from being a son of God by the departure of the Glory from his being, with no possibility for regeneration -which is the state of the resurrected in Adam, of the unrepentant, who are resurrected in their bodies that Jesus died to ransom back from corruption, for the Glory, which they did not accept,. In those bodies they will exist forever, with no possibility to be changed/morphosed into the New Man image, for the Glory, ever. Cast aways they will be; rejects, undying worms, captive in the second death, which is the Lake of Fire, and souls in body, they will be "food" for the satans for eternity, unending.

Sheol and hell are from a Hebrew word which means "hollow".
Enoch went to Sheol below earth, and the Garden of Righteousness was not, nor ever was, there, but there were four hollows made, and separated, one from another, for the departed souls of men; one of which was for the righteous, with "bright springs of water", as Jesus corroborated in Luke 16.

22 And thence I went to another place, and he showed me in the west another great and high mountain and of hard rock.



2And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.

3Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: "These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here.

4And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period till the period appointed, till the great judgement comes upon them."
A Visit to Sheol
5I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit.
6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?"
7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men."
8Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: "Why is one separated from the other?"
9And he answered me and said unto me: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated.

And such a division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water.
10And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime.

11Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever.
12And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners.
13Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence."
14Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever."

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you guys read a lot of assumptions into the texts.

Simon_Templar said:

you guys read a lot of assumptions into the texts.

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I will be happy to hear you on this matter.
It's okay to be specific and tell me where you believe you see me doing that.
-Thanks

Murjahel,
You cannot make a claim that the Garden of God, Paradise, of Eden, was ever cast down to Sheol below earth, by any wording of Ezekiel 31 nor any other passage in the Tenach, NT, Enoch, or Jasher. The "trees" that were cast down to Sheol amongst the "ben Adam" [children of men] were princes/sars of the nations, typed as "trees". The Pharaoh of Egypt being spoken to in that chapter is a "sar" of Egypt, who has fellow sars who all end up in Sheol.

The sars/rulers/Dan/Watchers/ben Elohym who are fallen, and who rule earth rule from Mount Eden in the heavenly realm of earth, as Enoch shows us, and from there, are cast down, when they are judged [or, already there, as in the case of the 200 who are in chained in Sheol since the flood, who took oaths to remain in the "bodies like Adam in which they appeared in when on earth doing God's business", so as to take wives and beget offspring for themselves on earth, and therefore be defiled and never return to their heavenly estate/habitations/spirit bodies].

In Ezekiel chapter 29, we read God's "controversy -a grudge" That God will will settle with the heavenly "prince/sar" of Egypt, who spoke through the reigning mouth of the pharaoah of the Exodus, as is recorded only in Jasher chapter 79:

46 And Pharaoh turned to Moses and Aaron and said to them, I know not the Lord whom you have declared, neither will I send his people.
47 And they answered and said to the king, The Lord God of Gods is his name, and he proclaimed his name over us from the days of our ancestors, and sent us, saying, Go to Pharaoh and say unto him, Send my people that they may serve me.
48 Now therefore send us, that we may take a journey for three days in the wilderness, and there may sacrifice to him, for from the days of our going down to Egypt, he has not taken from our hands either burnt offering, oblation or sacrifice, and if thou wilt not send us, his anger will be kindled against thee, and he will smite Egypt either with the plague or with the sword.
49 And Pharaoh said to them, Tell me now his power and his might; and they said to him, He created the heaven and the earth, the seas and all their fishes, he formed the light, created the darkness, caused rain upon the earth and watered it, and made the herbage and grass to sprout, he created man and beast and the animals of the forest, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, and by his mouth they live and die.
50 Surely he created thee in thy mother's womb, and put into thee the breath of life, and reared thee and placed thee upon the royal throne of Egypt, and he will take thy breath and soul from thee, and return thee to the ground whence thou wast taken.
51 And the anger of the king was kindled at their words, and he said to them, But who amongst all the Gods of nations can do this? my river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
52 And he drove them from him, and he ordered the labor upon Israel to be more severe than it was yesterday and before.

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Adikam said "My River is my own, and I have made it for myself", but the heavenly sar who ruled Egypt from the spiritual realm, which is Mount Eden where Enoch went to and dwells in, put that thought in the mind of, and spoke through the mouth of, Adikam, and we know so because God holds the same "pharaoh/king of Egypt" accountable for those words centuries later, as we read in Ezekiel 29.

Eze 29:2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself. ...
Eze 29:9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD: because he hath said, The river [is] mine, and I have made [it].

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So in Ezekiel 31, we have heavenly princes in Eden being typed as "trees", and the bringing down of them into Sheol is the same warning to them that God gave in Psalm 82, where we read in the original language the threat to the "ben Elohym" who are the judges of earth ruling from the same Mount Eden of the heavenly realm, set over men, that they shall "die like Adam, the one sar".

In Ezekiel 31 they are threatened to be cast down amongst the "ben Adam" who descend to Sheol.

The "trees" only, as heavenly princes who rule from Eden, who fall, are cast down to Sheol, but God's Orchard/Paradise itself, is never, ever, cast down to Sheol.
That Orchard is where the Tree of Life is, and to claim that the Tree of Life is in Sheol where the souls of men waited for the Atonement which cleansed their souls and which made them acceptable to be regenerated in Spirit [which is the second birth of spirit], and so to be freed from the first death and ascend to Eden above, to Paradise above, in the heavenly realm of this earth, is a totally false doctrine that has no corroborating Scriptures, and even looks ridiculous in comparison to all Scripture.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7535509-2/#post56754708
quote Murjahel:
II Esdras in the apocryphal books
speaks of that...
I call it the "Prophecy of Ezra',
Jerome did a horrible job of translating it,
(on purpose)... and it is largely ignored...
I re-translated it...

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murjahel said:

the Scriptures that I posted speak
for themselves...
some choose not to see it that way
that I do...

​

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As anyone can see in the copied link at the top of this, the Scriptures you post speak for you, and not for themselves, because you change them to your own private doctrines which cannot be supported unless you do "re-translate" them.

Scriptures must correlate and not contradict. Your re-translations and private isloated from context passages and opinions on those passages do not correlate with the Scriptures, as I have shown with Scriptures which I posted, refuting several of your errors already.

I do not doubt that you have a saving faith in Jesus Christ, but after that, you do not speak for the Holy Spirit and are not a teacher in His Church, because you contradict Him with your confusing teachings that go against what He has said through His prophets.