Forbes lists the Pope of Rome as the 5th most powerful person in the world in 2010.

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BrightCandle

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A. Are you implying Acts 6:5 is not a Christian? Are you suggesting He is wicked? On what do you base this?

B. Since the facts of the post called into question 538 in the first place then 1798 is not surprising at all.

C. It can't be a logical fulfillment if the things you say about 538 are not true.

D. Your usual smears and personal attacks are not a response to the evidence presented. At least Lysimachus took the effort to do some research to try and show that his view was reliable. You on the other hand discounted the data presented by Acts 6:5 without even trying to refute it. Upon what basis do you do so?

E. Lysimachus stated that the Adventist hermeneutic would be vindicated. Now we will see if Lysimachus responds with facts to back his claim.



1Ki 20:11 And the king of Israel answered, "Tell him, 'Let not him who straps on his armor boast himself as he who takes it off.'"

Lysimachus is still on the field. The contest he created is not yet decided.

No you are implying that. Act6:15 is a friend of mine. He even acknowledged the fact that the Papacy has achieved a level of power that is remarkable. I'm simply saying that historians are historians and they give the best interpretation of the facts that they can. But, when comparing Bible prophecy to history, we have look the history and find out what is significant to the true church at the time in relation to the false church or pagan powers, that is what God is concerned about. Historians often don't understand that aspect of history and often focus on the secular view of things.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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*snip*
The 1,260 year prophecy was interpreted by Bible commentators before William Miller and Ellen G. White. were even born. If you don't even try to understand or make any effort do you really think that you or your church will understand anything about future events? I don't think so!!
So who the heck listens to Bible commentators concerning Daniel, Revelation.

I am sure the apostate unbelieving Jews of today don't [I and a lot of others view ALL of Daniel as fulfilled btw] ;)

Daniel 12:1 And in that the time, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/qliyewv <2347> becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that.
[Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be a Great Tribulation/qliyiV <2347>, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming
[Dan 12:1/Rev 7:14]

Reve 7:14 And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the Great Tribulation/qliyewV <2347> and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lambkin
[Dan 12:1/Matt 24:21]
 
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Hairy Tic

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Acts6:5: Thanks for your comments, you are indeed a historian. But, here is my point, historians are not necessarily good at interpreting Bible prophecy because many of them were not Christian Historians. Spirit things like Bible prophecy are discerned by the wise as Daniel said in his book, that in the last days "the wise would understand", but the wicked wouldn't. When it comes to start date of the Papacy's rise to power, what is proof positive evidence supporting the 538 A.D. start date of the 1,260 day/year prophecy is the fact of the mathematical improbability of the Papacy being taken captive in 1798! You have a start date that is significant in that for the first time in 60 years the Papacy was freed from the Goths (538 A.D.), and then it just so "happened" that 1,260 years later in 1798 A.D. the Pope is taken captive! We know that the prophecy is sure, and it had to have a start date and an end date, and based in the duration of the prophecy, and the long history of Pagan Rome and Papal Rome, Historicist Bible commentators have determined that 538 A.D. and 1798 A.D. are the most logical dates of fulfillment, based on the timing of the events and the circumstances defining those events.
##The "Self-Interpreting Bible" edited by John Brown of Haddington in the 18th century ignores 538 - for Brown, either 606 or 756 was the date. 606 + 1260 = 1866 has fallen through - I predict, with the most absolute certainty possible, that 756 + 1260 = 2016 will be equally mistaken.

But let us date the era from 680, when the Sixth Ecumenical Council opened. That brings us to 1940, the zenith of Hitler's glory. This agrees perfectly with other Scriptures foretelling the rise of God's Messiah, Adolf Hitler. Take, for example, this:


1 The LORD says to my lord:[a]
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.[b]

4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]

and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 - Passage[bless and do not curse]Lookup - New International Version, ©2010 - BibleGateway.com

All of this foretells the Messianic glory of Adolf Hitler, whom God raised up from obscurity to rule the nations (as foretold in other Scriptures); his election to rule Chosen People, the Volk; his conquests over God's enemies the God-hating Communists & Jews; his judging of the nations through his Gauleiters & other servants; the punishment of the Jews by God through His servant; the ravaging of the Slavs by Hitler; the excellence of the Sturmabteilung, Wehrmacht, Totenkopf, & their victories; his defeat of the European nations. The Psalmist, knowing nothing of Berlin & being a Jew, speaks of Zion, though Berlin is the city from which the sceptre of the Messiah goes forth.

Jesus broke no heads - those broken by Adolf Hitler are countless. Adolf Hitler is therefore the Messiah foretold by Scripture. "But he failed", someone will object - the answer is, only in the sense that a man like Samson "failed".

IOW, it is pure convention, nothing more, to see one man rather than another as "prophesied" in the OT - the fulfilment may for all anyone knows not yet be realised. To see Jesus as being the fulfilment, is a mere habit, born of nothing more solid than convention, not founded on the texts brought to prove the fulfilment; which are so far from favouring the conventional interpretation that they pose problems for it.

The point is that any date can be chosen to fit the interval of 1260 years - the decider is is the writer's own bias & preference, not what the scriptures say. One could make the end date prove that First Contact between humans & Vulcans is foretold in the Bible, by finding the year invented for FC, taking away 1260, & proclaiming that the Bible foretold the event.

"Stardates did not replace clock time or everyday units for expressing larger timespans, such as days, weeks, months, years, centuries or millennia, and they do not apply retroactively instead of Gregorian or Julian calendars either: for example, the first contact with Vulcans still took place on April 5, 2063, not on a stardate."

Stardate - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

2063 - 1260 = 803

What happened in 803 ? The downfall of the Barmecide family. THey may be unknown to anyone unfamilar with the history of the Abbasid dynasty, but that is no evidence that the "prophetic clock" does not begin to tick with their fall instead of with some event more likely to be familiar to Fundamentalists.

All this of course assumes that the year-date equivalence theory is valid, which is a very big assumption. It also assumes that it is valid for all texts that are on the face it predictions yet to be fulfilled.

Further flaws:

  • the choice of 1798 makes no allowance for the possibility of a future "wound" being far greater & deadlier
  • 1798 was arrived at not in advance of the alleged fulfilment, but after it. This is what A. A. Hoekema called "rear-view exegesis" - an excellent name for it.
  • Such dates are alike only in being made, revised, falsified.
Most important of all, it demeans the Bible to treat it as a glorified pack of Tarot cards, or as a holy box of crackers.

-----

Note to Mods: what is messing about with the first link, to make it produce a "Don't swear" message ? All I posted was the code for:

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.
/?search=Psalm%20110&version=NIV
 
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BrightCandle

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So who the heck listens to Bible commentators concerning Daniel, Revelation.

I am sure the apostate unbelieving Jews of today don't [I and a lot of others view ALL of Daniel as fulfilled btw] ;)

Daniel 12:1 And in that the time, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/qliyewv <2347> becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that.
[Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be a Great Tribulation/qliyiV <2347>, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming
[Dan 12:1/Rev 7:14]

Reve 7:14 And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the Great Tribulation/qliyewV <2347> and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lambkin
[Dan 12:1/Matt 24:21]

Those who are wise will study what others who lived close to the times of the fulfillment of prophecies have written. In other words, there many Christians who saw prophesies fulfilled before their very eyes in the times past and wrote about them. And there were those who live centuries back in time who by study predicted the events before hand by their study of the current events and past history. For example men like Sir Isaac Newton identified the Papacy as the Antichrist.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Those who are wise will study what others who lived close to the times of the fulfillment of prophecies have written. In other words, there many Christians who saw prophesies fulfilled before their very eyes in the times past and wrote about them. And there were those who live centuries back in time who by study predicted the events before hand by their study of the current events and past history. For example men like Sir Isaac Newton identified the Papacy as the Antichrist.
Let's discuss that on the Eschatology board, shall we :)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7524325/#post56459289

It has been near for almost 2000 yrs now
biggrin.gif
wink.gif


1 Peter 4:7 Of All-things yet the End Has-Neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

be sane! then and be sober! into the prayers,

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this, that the Time Nigh/egguV <1451> is"
[Revelation 1:3]
 
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Sophia7

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The Millerites were interpreting one of the most complex and hard to understand prophecy in the Bible. They got the right date, but wrong event at first, but then soon after were shown their small error.

No, they got both the wrong date--1843--and the wrong event--the second coming of Christ. All of Miller's proofs pointed to 1843, not to 1844. The Millerites were entirely wrong, and their date-setting contradicted the Bible's warnings against it. Even after the date had been revised to 1844, Ellen White said that the Millerite message of the wrong date--again, that was 1843, not 1844--and the wrong event had been designed by God as a test. However, since it contradicted the Bible, those who rejected that message were right to do so on biblical grounds.
 
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Sophia7

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I'm simply saying that historians are historians and they give the best interpretation of the facts that they can. But, when comparing Bible prophecy to history, we have look the history and find out what is significant to the true church at the time in relation to the false church or pagan powers, that is what God is concerned about. Historians often don't understand that aspect of history and often focus on the secular view of things.

Those who are wise will study what others who lived close to the times of the fulfillment of prophecies have written. In other words, there many Christians who saw prophesies fulfilled before their very eyes in the times past and wrote about them. And there were those who live centuries back in time who by study predicted the events before hand by their study of the current events and past history. For example men like Sir Isaac Newton identified the Papacy as the Antichrist.

Many people throughout history have applied Bible prophecies to their own times based on their views of history and current events, and people are still doing it today. After all, I've even heard that Barney the Dinosaur is the antichrist. :D

sub-square-barney.gif


That is, of course, a ridiculous example to show that people can manipulate names and numbers to apply Bible prophecies to whatever contemporary people or characters they want. Seriously, the fact that some historical figures believed that the papacy was the antichrist doesn't prove them right.

Also, are you aware that Isaac Newton argued that the crucifixion of Jesus happened in A.D. 34, not in A.D. 31 as Adventism teaches? How convenient that you cite him for support even though he clearly wasn't in sync with Adventism's prophetic timeline. I guess even commentators who don't focus only on "the secular view of things" can be wrong about historical facts.
 
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tall73

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No you are implying that. Act6:15 is a friend of mine.

Then why did you say the following:


Acts6:5: Thanks for your comments, you are indeed a historian. But, here is my point, historians are not necessarily good at interpreting Bible prophecy because many of them were not Christian Historians. Spirit things like Bible prophecy are discerned by the wise as Daniel said in his book, that in the last days "the wise would understand", but the wicked wouldn't.

If it does not apply to him, why say it?

I'm simply saying that historians are historians and they give the best interpretation of the facts that they can. But, when comparing Bible prophecy to history, we have look the history and find out what is significant to the true church at the time in relation to the false church or pagan powers, that is what God is concerned about. Historians often don't understand that aspect of history and often focus on the secular view of things.


And Acts 6:5 is not a "secular" person. \And he seems to have a grasp on what happened at the time. You have yet to address his historical evidence. You just keep talking right around it.
 
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Pythons

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##The "Self-Interpreting Bible" edited by John Brown of Haddington in the 18th century ignores 538 - for Brown, either 606 or 756 was the date. 606 + 1260 = 1866 has fallen through - I predict, with the most absolute certainty possible, that 756 + 1260 = 2016 will be equally mistaken.

But let us date the era from 680, when the Sixth Ecumenical Council opened. That brings us to 1940, the zenith of Hitler's glory. This agrees perfectly with other Scriptures foretelling the rise of God's Messiah, Adolf Hitler. Take, for example, this:

1 The LORD says to my lord:[a]
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.[b]
4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.

Psalm 110 - Passage[bless and do not curse]Lookup - New International Version, ©2010 - BibleGateway.com

All of this foretells the Messianic glory of Adolf Hitler, whom God raised up from obscurity to rule the nations (as foretold in other Scriptures); his election to rule Chosen People, the Volk; his conquests over God's enemies the God-hating Communists & Jews; his judging of the nations through his Gauleiters & other servants; the punishment of the Jews by God through His servant; the ravaging of the Slavs by Hitler; the excellence of the Sturmabteilung, Wehrmacht, Totenkopf, & their victories; his defeat of the European nations. The Psalmist, knowing nothing of Berlin & being a Jew, speaks of Zion, though Berlin is the city from which the sceptre of the Messiah goes forth.

Jesus broke no heads - those broken by Adolf Hitler are countless. Adolf Hitler is therefore the Messiah foretold by Scripture. "But he failed", someone will object - the answer is, only in the sense that a man like Samson "failed".

IOW, it is pure convention, nothing more, to see one man rather than another as "prophesied" in the OT - the fulfilment may for all anyone knows not yet be realised. To see Jesus as being the fulfilment, is a mere habit, born of nothing more solid than convention, not founded on the texts brought to prove the fulfilment; which are so far from favouring the conventional interpretation that they pose problems for it.

The point is that any date can be chosen to fit the interval of 1260 years - the decider is is the writer's own bias & preference, not what the scriptures say. One could make the end date prove that First Contact between humans & Vulcans is foretold in the Bible, by finding the year invented for FC, taking away 1260, & proclaiming that the Bible foretold the event.

"Stardates did not replace clock time or everyday units for expressing larger timespans, such as days, weeks, months, years, centuries or millennia, and they do not apply retroactively instead of Gregorian or Julian calendars either: for example, the first contact with Vulcans still took place on April 5, 2063, not on a stardate."

Stardate - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

2063 - 1260 = 803

What happened in 803 ? The downfall of the Barmecide family. THey may be unknown to anyone unfamilar with the history of the Abbasid dynasty, but that is no evidence that the "prophetic clock" does not begin to tick with their fall instead of with some event more likely to be familiar to Fundamentalists.

All this of course assumes that the year-date equivalence theory is valid, which is a very big assumption. It also assumes that it is valid for all texts that are on the face it predictions yet to be fulfilled.

Further flaws:

  • the choice of 1798 makes no allowance for the possibility of a future "wound" being far greater & deadlier
  • 1798 was arrived at not in advance of the alleged fulfilment, but after it. This is what A. A. Hoekema called "rear-view exegesis" - an excellent name for it.
  • Such dates are alike only in being made, revised, falsified.
Most important of all, it demeans the Bible to treat it as a glorified pack of Tarot cards, or as a holy box of crackers.

-----


Note to Mods: what is messing about with the first link, to make it produce a "Don't swear" message ? All I posted was the code for:

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.
/?search=Psalm%20110&version=NIV

LOL! Now that was crafty!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Forbes - Pope Benedict XVI

The Reformers of the 16th century must be turning over in their graves as we speak, in light of the very muted outcry of Protestants and Evangelicals regarding the Pope's continuing rise to power in the religio-political realm of the world. I can say with assurance, that if Wycliff, Hus, Zwingli, Knox, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, or Spurgeon were alive today they would be shouting from the rooftops and preaching in the streets!
Has anyone read the comments posted at that link :D


6:43 am on 12/30/10

nim2chimpskys2last2words
Also, John.
I would very much like to read your book.
After I read the good response on Amazon.
But I have no way to borrow the book from the local library.
A history of science is always a very good thing.
But I would not pay two cents for one.
Since.
In our present world.
We basically need to right now keep our eyes on the ball.
In fact.
The history of anything is not very useful these days. Simply because we are in very new territories.
If we had the luxury, today, to while away the days thinking about history. Then we might also be able to laze away the days, just dreaming about a better life.
But the point is that we no longer have the luxury to laze away our [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing days.
There is no longer any more time for sitting in the sun, soaking up very good literature.
Nor any poems, neither.
While you, John Farrell, sit in the sun. Writing a history of some science. Our world is setting.
Not the USA world.
But the whole world.
Now, John.
Please shave your beard.
Get serious.
Get to work.
There is much that needs to be done if you wish to save your world!
 
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Lysimachus

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You still haven't explained why Ellen White rejected the sabbath truth.

Jonah also rejected God's message to warn Nineveh. Did that make Jonah a false prophet? But Jonah finally responded. God was guiding Ellen White, and she eventually accepted all the truth. Her visions were inspired, but her opinions formed that were not as a result of inspiration were not. I could list you countless examples of prophets who made major blunders in their personal ideas.

You haven't explained why Ellen attached compliance to the sabbath was requisite to "salvation", and yet never once kept the sabbath holy according to the law that ordained it. And, neither have you!

Maybe because I have seen such material? I would equate Sabbath-keeping no different than the obligation for a Christian to not steal, murder, or bear false witness. If one purposely breaks the Sabbath, it is no different than purposely trying to break the other 9. This kind of fruit reveals that the character of Christ has truly not transformed the soul.

You haven't accepted Romans 7:6-7 explanation that we have been delivered from the Ten Commandments, identified by quoting directly from it with the phrase "You shall not covet".

We have been delivered from the 10 commandments. I agree. :) But your version of "deliverance" is contrary to the scriptures. I will just briefly say for now that "deliverance" from the 10 commandments means to be delivered from their condemnation. Those who are "under the law" in the context of Romans are those who are "under the condemnation of the law", because they are not under "grace", which imputes strength and power to enable the sinner to overcome sin (the transgression of the law).

In a nutshell, those who are BREAKING the 10 commandments, are "UNDER THE LAW".

Those who are KEEPING the 10 commandments, BY FAITH, THROUGH GRACE, are "UNDER GRACE". These are they that are delivered from the bondage of sin, and therefore, the 10 commandments cannot condemn you, because you are delivered from their scrutenizing power.

The 10 commandments only bring death to the sinner. Only the blood of Jesus can bring life to the soul. But once the Christians has received Christ as His personal Saviour, a new life begets in the soul and he now begins to live a life in harmony with its precepts.

The basis of God's Government is still the 10 commandments. That is the foundational platform for which ALL laws of Christ hang from, and are extended from. The mosaic laws revolving the sanctuary services, and various ceremonies such as circumcision, slaying of the lamb, burnt offerings, meat offerings, etc. etc. were not laws of righteousness. They were "REMEDIES" for sinning against the moral law, for which the 10 commandments in the Ark of the Covenant was the basis for the entire agreement.

The problem with the Galatians was that they were trying to remedy their own sins through the Mosaic earthly system, through their own merits, and not the blood of Christ and His High Priestly ministry in heaven. Therefore, by depending on their own ceremonial practices, they were inadvertently denying Christ as their High Priest in heaven, and were placing themselves under the condemnation of the law, because the earthly ceremonial remedies for sin could no longer atone for sin, as type had met antitype. Therefore, their sins against the 10 commandments could not be remedied. This was the "crux" of the issue in Galatians, and Paul was trying to help them see that they had been "bewitched". The primary focus of Galatians was the "book of the law", and "circumcision/circumcised" listed 12 times throughout the book of Galatians! The issue was not whether the 10 commandments were in force or not, it was meditorial work---rebuking them for attempting to atone for their own sins, and not relying on the merits of their High Priest in heaven.

You rejected the testimony from Moses telling you exactly what the Ten Commandments was.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your argument? Please break it down meticulously again.

You haven't accepted Paul's conclusion that those retained by the covenant from Mount Sinai will not share life with the Heir.

You mean the covenant where they said "We will do", but not "God will do in me"? Please don't forget that there were 2 covenants made at Sinai. One in Exodus 19, the 10 commandments in Exodus 20, and then the one in Exodus 19 was repeated again in Exodus 24.

The Old Covenant promise is based on a system of works, for which God never intended in the first place.

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone" (Romans 9:31,32)​

Let us assume for a moment that Israel HAD attained the law of righteousness by faith, and not the works of the law. Would this have removed their obligation to be obedient to the 10 commandments? I'm afraid not. The New Covenant promise was not to remove the law, but to write it in the heart of the believer.

The living reality is, there is only really ONE COVENANT. Now, before you jump all over me, this does not mean there are not two covenants, the Old and New. But it means that there is only ONE covenant which one can be saved by.

It was never God's intent to make a New Covenant with Israel. It was God's intent that Israel were to live up to the promises they made from the very beginning. We are told unequivocally, and unapologetically, that had the first covenant been faultless, no need would have been to make a second covenant:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them [ISRAEL], he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Hebrews 8:7,8)​

We see therefore that it became absolutely necessary to make a new covenant seeing that the failure of the Old Covenant had to do with the faults of Israel, not the law. They sought the law of righteousness by works and not by faith. They relied on their own strength to keep the 10 commandments, and not the strength of God working in them. This goes to show why those who break the 10 commandments are actually repeating the mistakes of Israel and falling under the Old Covenant. But those who keep the 10 commandments by faith, and have them written in their hearts, come under the New Covenant experience---which is the faith of Abraham illustrated in Galatians 4.

If you read the entire chapter of Jeremiah 31 very carefully, you will see just how displeased God was with the Jews, which is why God emphasized that it was now necessary for him to make a New Covenant---since because the Jews failed to rely on God for strength, and had no change of heart, God&#8217;s promise was to confirm the covenant and make it new. The covenant became old, and had to vanish, based on the poor promises of Israel. The New Covenant is still made to Israel, as clearly shown in Jeremiah 31. Removing the law does not change the heart. It does not remedy a thing. It only makes it so the sinner has nothing to measure up to. Without law, there is no standard of righteousness. Do you really believe that God wanted the Old Covenant to fail? This covenant God made with Israel was a re-integration of the Everlasting Covenant made with mankind at creation, made again with Noah, made again with Abraham, and then made again with Israel at Mt. Sinai! Once broken by their poor promises, a New Covenant was necessary. But the ratification of the New Covenant was STILL the ratification of the Everlasting Covenant!!! &#8220;Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.&#8221; (Hebrews 13:20) This &#8220;everlasting covenant&#8221; is mentioned in Genesis 9:16 with Noah (which points back to the eternal creation covenant), with Abraham (Genesis 17:7,13,19), with Israel (Leviticus 24:8 ), again with David (2 Samuel 23:5), is repeated in 1 Chronicles 16:17 and Psalms 105:10; Isaiah 24:5 mentions how Israel was &#8220;breaking&#8221; the everlasting covenant, but it also says in Hebrews 8 that Israel broke the Old Covenant too, so we see a connection here.

After breaking it again and again, out of God&#8217;s mercy, He continued to re-introduce the Everlasting Covenant to Israel (Isaiah 55:3; 61:8 ). In Jeremiah 31 God mentions how he was to make a new covenant with Israel, and he calls this new covenant the &#8220;everlasting covenant&#8221; in the very next chapter, Jeremiah 32, by saying: &#8220;And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.&#8221; (Jeremiah 32:40), again in Ezekiel 16:60 God reminds them of it, and in Ezekiel 37:26 God calls the &#8220;everlasting covenant&#8221;, a &#8220;covenant of peace&#8221;. Finally Paul shows how the blood of the everlasting covenant was ratified.

We then see a gradual re-integration and re-introduction of the Everlasting Covenant, and we see that the Old Covenant was the Everlasting Covenant. We see that the New Covenant was also the Everlasting Covenant. Hence, we see the following accurate picture emerge:

The Old Covenant was the Everlasting Covenant broken by the poor promises of Israel. The New Covenant was the Everlasting Covenant recaptured, restored, and made better by the blood of Christ. The Adamic Covenant, the Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic or Old Covenant, AND the David Covenant were progressive reintroductions of the Everlasting Covenant throughout history. The Adamic Covenant in Genesis 3:15 was the BEGINNING of the Everlasting Covenant's reintroduction until it was finally ratified by the blood of Christ. You can learn more about this in a thorough study given here on pages 9-21.

I believe this to be sound doctrine that cannot be moved in light of the texts presented above. It is a more logical, and accurate approach to God's dealings with humanity rather than the erroneous dispensational divisions the Protestants make the Bible out to be. Yes, even those so called "non-dispensationalists" are akin to their dispensational brothers, as long as they reject the binding nature of the 10 commandments to the Everlasting Covenant, which is the New Covenant.

Let us keep in mind God did not install the Old Covenant based on Works. But it BECAME works after Israel failed to live up to the promises. That&#8217;s why it became equated with Hagar in Galatians 4! This is not difficult to comprehend. We cannot make God out to be an unreasonable God&#8230;.forcing the Jews to live by works, but then allow the Gentiles to go scott free! Otherwise, we make God out to be a respector of persons. The very fact that Sarah, the Free-woman is equated with the New Covenant PROVES that the New Covenant experience existed in the Old Covenant!!! Because SARAH AND ABRAHAM LIVED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TIME PERIOD!

Unless we are to conclude that the New Covenant experience only existed with Abraham, then God suddenly shifted to an old covenant of works at Sinai, then back to a New Covenant again? Remember, the "Old" Covenant in the Old Testament was never called "OLD". It only BECAME "Old" after Israel broke it, because it was based on poor promises. See Exodus 19:8 and 24:7.

There is only ONE covenant by which you can be saved by!!! BIG DIFFERENCE! And when God instituted the covenant, it was a covenant by which God meant the Israelites to be SAVED BY. But they broke it, and therefore, a new one was required. A new one was necessary. No human being will enter the kingdom of heaven by virtue of the Old Covenant. Not one. While the Israelites were living in the Old Covenant "time period", they could only be saved by virtue of the New Covenant experience. The Old Testament ceremonial types pointed to this.

I repeat:

&#8220;For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.&#8221; (Hebrews 8:6,7)

God instituted a covenant. God expected the Israelites to seek Him by faith. But they did not. They sought righteousness by works, not righteousness by faith, so therefore, they broke the agreement. They broke the promise. They broke the contract. This is why the Old Covenant was filled with &#8220;poor promises&#8221;. It was filled with &#8220;I will do&#8221;, not &#8220;God will do in me&#8221;. The fault of the covenant was not God&#8217;s working, but the failure of the people to exercise the faith of Abraham. It would be ludicrous to say that God expected Abraham to have faith (and that this is the New Covenant experience), and then suddenly to switch gears and say the Israelites must try to be saved through the bondwoman!

Try to digest what is really going on here. I have presented this understanding to some people, and after the light-bulbs went off, it was like a WHOLE new world opened up to them. The Bible became more real and living to them.

(Continued...)
 
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Lysimachus

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(Continuation...)

Imagine the following illustration…

Assuming you have children, you decide to trust your son with a pair of keys. You say “Son, I am committing these keys to you…and I want you to take good care of them…these are the keys to the house, and to all the rooms in the house”. Now think about this, is there any fault with the keys you are giving your son? Of course not.

But your son, in his carelessness, ends up either damaging the keys, or losing them. Therefore, you are forced to make a new set of keys for your son. There was nothing wrong with the keys, it was the carelessness of the son who was trusted with the keys. This is why Israel was given the trustees of the gospel commission, but they abused this trust and failed to take a hold of God’s covenant by faith. Therefore, a new covenant became necessary.

There are 2 covenants, but only 1 covenant by which you can be saved. There is only really one TRUE covenant. And that’s the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is no longer God’s covenant. It is a covenant damaged and abused by the poor promises of Israel.

This is why when I say that the New Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant restored and made better, it makes perfect sense. God’s Everlasting Covenant was re-integrated and re-introduced a number of times throughout scripture. It was introduced in Genesis 9:16. We know that Christ’s blood was shed was for the “New Covenant”. “For this is my blood of the new covenant” (Matthew 26:27), yet we see that it was Christ’s blood shed was for the “everlasting covenant” (Hebrews 13:20). So the New Covenant IS the Everlasting Covenant. And the Old Covenant is that covenant which FAILED to materialize into the Everlasting Covenant which God instituted (which is why it became labeled "old" in the New Testament). How so? By the poor promises of Israel!

May truth and righteousness reign supreme!

~ Lysimachus
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Jonah also rejected God's message to warn Nineveh. Did that make Jonah a false prophet? But Jonah finally responded.

Try to digest what is really going on here. I have presented this understanding to some people, and after the light-bulbs went off, it was like a WHOLE new world opened up to them. The Bible became more real and living to them.

(Continued...)
:thumbsup:

Matt 12:41 "Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation, this and they shall be condemning it,
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.
[Jonah 3/1 Thess 4:16]

1 thess 4:16 That the Lord himself in a shout-of-command, in voice of a chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven,
and the dead-ones in Christ shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) first,
 
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Jonah also rejected God's message to warn Nineveh. Did that make Jonah a false prophet? But Jonah finally responded. God was guiding Ellen White, and she eventually accepted all the truth. Her visions were inspired, but her opinions formed that were not as a result of inspiration were not. I could list you countless examples of prophets who made major blunders in their personal ideas.
I think it is very debatable that EGW was following God in her visions because of the oft quote remark to her guiding angel. I find such a phrase in only 2 places: The SDA church and the Occult. I find guiding angel to be contrary to the scripture because Jesus said: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. - JN 16:13.

Maybe because I have seen such material? I would equate Sabbath-keeping no different than the obligation for a Christian to not steal, murder, or bear false witness. If one purposely breaks the Sabbath, it is no different than purposely trying to break the other 9. This kind of fruit reveals that the character of Christ has truly not transformed the soul. [/quote] The type of behavior/sin you all refer to is listed in Gal 5:19-21 and called acts of the flesh which those who are led by the Spirit don't perform. There isn't a don't do list that I recall in the NT. I might not be thinking of every scripture at the moment, so it might be possible there is such a list. Thought you would like the disclaimer. So prove me wrong. Such a list must be for the purpose of commanding it.
We have been delivered from the 10 commandments. I agree. :) But your version of "deliverance" is contrary to the scriptures. I will just briefly say for now that "deliverance" from the 10 commandments means to be delivered from their condemnation. Those who are "under the law" in the context of Romans are those who are "under the condemnation of the law", because they are not under "grace", which imputes strength and power to enable the sinner to overcome sin (the transgression of the law).
Then how are we required to keep the 4th?
In a nutshell, those who are BREAKING the 10 commandments, are "UNDER THE LAW".
One can't break something they aren't bound to. You agreed above that we are delivered from the 10 commandsments.
Those who are KEEPING the 10 commandments, BY FAITH, THROUGH GRACE, are "UNDER GRACE". These are they that are delivered from the bondage of sin, and therefore, the 10 commandments cannot condemn you, because you are delivered from their scrutenizing power.
The first problem we have is who kept them by faith? Abraham?ROFLOL! The second problem we have is what do you mean by keeping? Romans states no one ever has (Jesus excepted).
The 10 commandments only bring death to the sinner. Only the blood of Jesus can bring life to the soul. But once the Christians has received Christ as His personal Saviour, a new life begets in the soul and he now begins to live a life in harmony with its precepts.
Nope! Why would or should a redeemed Christian take on death. You just admitted that the 10 commandments bring on death. If they can't condemn the righteous they have no value to the righteous. That alone shows that they no longer have any jurisdiction power of enforcement.
The basis of God's Government is still the 10 commandments. That is the foundational platform for which ALL laws of Christ hang from, and are extended from. The mosaic laws revolving the sanctuary services, and various ceremonies such as circumcision, slaying of the lamb, burnt offerings, meat offerings, etc. etc. were not laws of righteousness. They were "REMEDIES" for sinning against the moral law, for which the 10 commandments in the Ark of the Covenant was the basis for the entire agreement.
No again read Hebrews.
 
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Lysimachus

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I wonder how many other "most powerful people" on Forbes' list could pose threats to the world. Would you notice if they did, or would your focus on #5 blind you to other dangers?

Oh Sophia Sophia Sopphia...what we gonna do wit u? eh? ;)

How can we help you see the "bigger picture" here instead of majoring and minoring in issues that are irrelevant to the large picture? How can we help you see the birds-eye view of Bible prophecy rather than the intricate mechanics of church and state political activities?

The Pope and the Catholic Church, as the beast, does not have power in and of itself. The real threat to the world is not the Beast, but the Governments (State) of the world who are giving and will give power to the beast by simply paying homage to the mother hen. The Beast (Pope/Papacy) in and of itself is no threat---it is his influence with the State, and it will be the Sword of the State that will be wielded against God's true commandment-keeping and obedient loving Christians. Read Revelation 13 very carefully. The real problem here is not the Sea Beast, but the Land Beast that "causes" (enforces) the world to worship the Sea Beast which was before it. And it won't be the Sea Beast doing the actual persecuting. No, we won't see Cardinals and Jesuits running after us with machine guns. It will be the governments and military power who have willfully submitted to uniting with the Sea Beast.

You may be against Adventist theology concerning the Papacy, but just remember, you are really not against Adventist theology, rather, you are rejecting the very foundations which made Protestantism what it is today--A unanimous agreement by ALL our Protestant Reformers that the Antichrist/Beast/Little Horn/Harlot of Bible prophecy was realized in the Papacy.

Not to mention that the Waldenses came to these conclusions all on their own without the influence of the Reformers.

In The Treatise of Antichrist, written by the Waldenses sometime in the 12th or 13th century, we find the following not only that the Papacy was the Antichrist, but also that the Antichrist was not a single man, rather, an entire system:

"And so it is not any one particular person, ordained to such a Degree, Office, or Ministery, it being considered universally; but it is Falshood it self, in opposition to the Truth, covering and adorning it self with a pretence of Beauty and Piety, not suitable to the Church of Christ, as by the Names, and Offices, the Scriptures, the Sacraments, and many other things may appear. Iniquity thus qualified with all the Ministers thereof great and small, together with all them that follow them, with an evil heart, and blindfold; such a Congregation -comprised together, is that which is called Antichrist or Babylon, or the fourth Beast, or the harlot, or the Man of Sin, the Son of perdition." (Of Antichrist, (see also p. 158); Leger, op. cit., p. 71., quoted in Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 1, pp. 880)​

"Antichrist could not come in any wise, but all these forementioned things must needs meet together, to make up a complete hypocrisie and falshood, viz. the worldly wise men, the Religious Orders, the Pharisees, Ministers, Doctours, the Secular Power, with the worldly people joyntly together. And thus all of them together make up the Man of sin and errour completely." (Morland. Op, cit.., p. 144., quoted in Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol 1. p. 880)​

Notice carefully that Antichrist is declared to not be an individual, but a whole system--as the whole congregation of "hypocritical ministers and laity, described under the symbols of Daniel, Paul, and John" (Froom). This is a "remarkable identification".

The Waldenses also believed that the Antichrist grew to full age over time from infancy since the days of the Apostles. Notice:

"Although that Antichrist was conceived already in the Apostles time, yet being but in his infancy as it were, he wanted his inward and outward members; . . . he wanted yet those hypocritical Ministers, and humane Ordinances, and the outward shew of those Religious Orders .... he wanted the secular strength and power, and could not force nor compell any from the truth unto falshood. And because he wanted many things yet, therefore he could not defile or scandalize any by his deceits, and thus, being so weak and tender, he could obtain no place in the Church. But growing up in his Members, that is to say, in his blinde and dissembling Ministers, and in worldly Subjects, he at length became a complete man, grew up to his full age, to wit, then when the lovers of the world in Church and State, blinde in faith, did multiply in the Church, and get all the power into their hands." (Ibid., pp. 144, 145., quoted in Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol 1., p. 881)​

Froom then states that "after referring to Antichrist's defrauding of God and of 'Christ as Mediator," fostering idolatry and stirring hate and violence against 'those that love the truth,' the treatise sets forth Antichrist as having already fulfilled Paul's specifications of the Man of Sin-and not still to be waited for:"

"According to the Apostle we may truly say, This is that man of sin complete, that lifts up himself against all that is called God, or worshipped, and that setteth himself in opposition against all truth, sitting down in the Temple of God, that is in his Church, and shewing forth himself as if he were God, being come with all manner of deceivableness for those that perish. And since he is truly come, he must no longer be looked for; for he is grown old already by God's permission." (Ibid., p 146; Leger, op cit., p. 73., quoted in PFF1, p. 881)​

The Waldenses also identified themselves as the "Church fleeing in the wilderness" and being persecuted by the Beast.

When I read these historical records, I am proud to subscribe to Adventist ideology, as it assures me that I am on solid ground, and it is as solid as it gets. People who refuse to accept that the Papacy is the Antichrist, and that it exercised full ecclesiastical power through the state for 1260 years from the early 6th century to the later 18th century, are simply in "denial".

Many of these Protestants like to think the Papacy is well, just a "naughty church", but they are still willing to compromise with them. They are unwilling to accept that the Sunday legacy was bequeathed to them from the Papal apostate power which was tinctured with Pagan roots. They are unwilling to face the facts that Sunday-keeping originates from Mithraism, which stems all the way back to the great hermetic dragon.

One of the biggest things that irritates me is when we provide sources like this, snobbish critics are always ready to pounce on you in attempt to disqualify these applications made by the Waldenses and the Reformers by trying to point out other "heresies" in their theology. These are very lame and childish, and demonic diversionary tactics that deserve a firm slap in the face. Such individuals seem incapable of differentiating between various theological differences verses core teachings for which unanimity was reached, and for which God had his guiding hand throughout the centuries. While Calvin and Wesley differed on soteriological issues, they were unanimous that Salvation was by Faith through Grace alone and not the works of Romanism, and that the Antichrist was realized in the Papacy. So were the Waldenses agreed on this matter. The early Church Fathers, though tinctured with Greek philosophy from their attending the schools of Pythagoras and Zeno and often appealing to Plato, as well as drawing from psuedepigraphal writings to help them distort their 70th week of Daniel, were ALL unanimous that the restraining power that was holding back the Antichrist from usurping its power was the Roman State. All of them were unanimous on the identity of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7--Lion (Babylon), Bear (Persia), Leopard (Greece), 10-Horned Beast (Pagan Rome).

Prophecy is of no private interpretation, yet sadly these foundational principles are being willfully ignored by Protestants today.

Protestants today even refuse to recognize what the Reformers recognized as the Mark of the Beast. All the reformers were unanimous on the fact that the Mark of the Beast had to do with legal decrees, laws, and ceremonies of the Catholic Church. Adventists built upon these foundations and crystallized and sharpened them even more, narrowing it down to the heart of the matter...that Sunday is the central Mark of the Papal Ecclesiastical Power! All other interpretations of the Mark of the Beast are built on LEFT FIELD theologies, not the reformation. Adventism is!!!

God has a day, and that is His Eternal Sabbath instituted at Creation.

Satan, through the Beast, has his counterfeit Sabbath. And that is Sunday.

These I believe are sacred, cutting truths, for which one day the world is going to have to face. Whether they like it or not.

It's time to stand up for truth and righteousness, deny your flesh, and follow God, the All Powerful, Omnipotent, Loving, and Eternal Creator of Heaven and Earth!

~ Lysimachus
 
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Lysimachus

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I think it is very debatable that EGW was following God in her visions because of the oft quote remark to her guiding angel. I find such a phrase in only 2 places: The SDA church and the Occult. I find guiding angel to be contrary to the scripture because Jesus said: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. - JN 16:13.

Unfortunately I fail to see how your argument computes. Are you saying the Spirit of Truth cannot work through an angel? Did Daniel make a major blunder by having the guiding angel, Gabriel? Keep in mind that John 16:13 is primarily focusing on the Christian individual, not prophets. And the Spirit of Truth speaks THROUGH the prophets to the searcher for truth. Ellen White no doubt wrote down many things that impressed her. But then there were also times when the angel gave her specific instructions. I fail to see how this is an issue at all. I'd not heard this argument even by Ellen White's staunchest critics. So I'm afraid your alone on this one.

Maybe because I have seen such material? I would equate Sabbath-keeping no different than the obligation for a Christian to not steal, murder, or bear false witness. If one purposely breaks the Sabbath, it is no different than purposely trying to break the other 9. This kind of fruit reveals that the character of Christ has truly not transformed the soul.

The type of behavior/sin you all refer to is listed in Gal 5:19-21 and called acts of the flesh which those who are led by the Spirit don't perform.

Without the 10 commandment foundation, none of those laws mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 could exist. Keep in mind that according to Isaiah 42:21, Christ came to "magnify" the law, and make it "honourable". These laws in Galatians 5:19-21 do not "eclipse" the 10 commandments, or "replace them", but rather are "magnifications", or "extensions", or "expansions", of the 10 commandments. In other words, the 10 commandments are more binding today than they were in the Old Covenant, because we are now even more responsible to lay hold of that covenant were God has promised to write them into our hearts. All these laws are simply the "advanced courses" of learning. The 10 commandments are simply the "basic elementary" platform for which all laws expand upon.

There isn't a don't do list that I recall in the NT. I might not be thinking of every scripture at the moment, so it might be possible there is such a list. Thought you would like the disclaimer. So prove me wrong. Such a list must be for the purpose of commanding it.

Well, I guess we should ask the question: How many times does God have to repeat something before we can finally be satisfied that He means it? When Jesus came to the Rich Young Ruler, who was a Jew, this Ruler had never heard of the "laws of Christ". The only commandments that He knew were the 10 commandments and the laws of Moses. Yet when the Rich Young Ruler approached Jesus, Jesus said:

"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother." (Luke 18:20)

Then the Rich Young Ruler replied: "And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up." (verse 21).

We see that Jesus is simply recognizing the 10 commandments as binding, and quoting from a few them to make a point about obedience. Notice Christ didn't quote all 10, simply because he doesn't need to, as the Jews were already aware of them. Jesus didn't quote the 3rd commandment to not take God's name in vain, or the first and second to not worship idols are put other gods before Him. These were basic, elementary principles that did not need to be re-iterated to such extend. Yet in the words of Jesus, it is clearly implicated that Jesus recognized their enforcement. After Christ's death, Paul recognizes these same commandments as in force in Romans 13:

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)​

We see here how Paul is emphatically stating that the "carrying out of love is the fulfilling of the law, or the keeping of the law". This harmonizes well with 1 John 5:2 and 3:

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this IS THE LOVE of God, THAT we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:2,3)​

We see therefore that the keeping of the commandments is the carrying out of true genuine love for God and our brethren.

Then how are we required to keep the 4th?One can't break something they aren't bound to.

You are making Paul contradict himself. First of all, it's not a matter of "keep this is as a requirement for salvation". It's a matter of believing. Once you believe, the fruits will show. Not that you will be able to keep them perfectly, but the power of Christ will enable you to overcome sin, and as long as God sees that you are doing your best, that is what counts. Christ covers our shortcomings. But shortcomings due to infirmities and human weaknesses are VASTLY different from WILLFUL disobedience, which is rebellion against God. Christ's righteousness cannot cover willful disobedience. Hebrews 10:26 says "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Then we have James 4:17 tell us "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.", which implies that when we wilfully go against what we know is right, it becomes sin to us. And sin is the "transgression of the law" (See Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4).

As to why we are still required to obey the 4th commandment Sabbath in the New Covenant, please read my article entitled The Three Principles of the Covenants.

This article will break it down meticulously for you. Please read it very slowly and carefully and prayerfully to digest the information.

I should also remind you that you are reading things into those passages that do not exist. To be free from the law does not mean you are not required to keep them. You are coining the word "bound" in a wrong sense, and does not apply. True freedom in Christ is when we are living in harmony with His precepts. God has a government, and orderly governments have laws. The 10 commandments are the constitution of the universe, and this "testimony" (the 10 commandments) is sitting in the Ark of the Covenant in heaven judging the universe. See Revelation 11:19 and 15:5. The 10 commandments in the Old Testament were called "The Testimony" (see Exodus 25:16, 21, 22; 31:18; 32:15; 34:29). We are told in Hebrews that the earthly sanctuary was a pattern, a copy, or a figure of the true sanctuary in heaven. If the 10 commandments were not the same in heaven, then the 10 commandments were truly not a pattern were they? Hebrews 4:9 tells us that there "remains a Sabbath keeping to the people of God". And for your information, Jesus Christ is not the Sabbath, and does not replace the Sabbath. Rather, Paul is emphasizing that Sabbath keeping is a SYMBOL of our eternal rest in Christ. The Sabbath is the EXPRESSION of our rest in Christ. It is blessed weekly reminder of our true rest found in Christ.

You agreed above that we are delivered from the 10 commandsments.The first problem we have is who kept them by faith? Abraham?ROFLOL!

How is this a problem? Faith was required whether the ceremonial laws were in force or not. But God's moral law never changes, for which is "perfect". "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." (Psalms 19:7). God's law also stands fast forever and ever: "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; ALL his commandments are sure. They STAND FAST FOR EVER AND EVER, and are DONE in truth and uprightness. He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever." (Psalms 111:7-10)

The phrase "ALL his/my commandments" is referring to all 10 commandments, as alluded to regarding the quoting of the 10 commandments in Dueteronomy 5:29, where after quoting the 10 commandments, Moses quoted God as saying "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep ALL my commandments always". There were NO more commandments added to the 10 according to verse 22 which says "he added no more!" The 10 were "SPECIAL", and the fact that they were carved in stone was a symbol of their eternal nature. Jesus is the rock, Jesus is the corner stone, and Jesus says "For I am the LORD, I change not." (Malachi 3:6)

The 10 commandments are also the ONLY commandments God uttered out of his own lips, and were thundered at Mount Sinai according to Moses' account in Dueteronomy 5, and Exodus 20. This was that covenant that correlates with Psalms 111:7-10, and for which God unequivocally, and unapologetically declares:

"My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalms 89:34)​

To keep 9 out of the 10 commandments, and say that the 4th is no longer applicable, is to alter the words that have gone out of the lips at Mount Sinai. That's some serious business.

The second problem we have is what do you mean by keeping? Romans states no one ever has (Jesus excepted).Nope! Why would or should a redeemed Christian take on death. You just admitted that the 10 commandments bring on death. If they can't condemn the righteous they have no value to the righteous. That alone shows that they no longer have any jurisdiction power of enforcement.

Christ's death redeemed us from condemnation. Without Christ's death, it is impossible to keep the law. But because of Christ's death, it is possible to be obedient, and be redeemed from the curse of the law.

Christ's death paid the penalty of sin. This death was the "second death". Had Christ not died, the entire human race would have been lost, and would have had to die the second death. But because Christ redeemed us, He made a provision for us to be saved.

But Christ did not come to take away the necessity to be obedient to His commandments. He came to take away the penalty of the second death for the human race. And all those who take hold of that gift accept it.

But notice how it works:

When Jesus encountered Mary Magdalene, notice what happened:

"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:10,11)​

Notice here how the command of Christ is to "go and sin no more". When Christ said "neither do I condemn thee", this was Grace. When Jesus then said "go and sin no more", he was emphasizing the law. In other words, Christ has justified you, and you are forgiven. But now it is your duty to show your appreciation by following and walking after Him, and doing as He does.

Notice: "But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (1 Peter 2:21)

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)

Not to mention that Jesus says a number of times to take up our cross, and "follow him".

Your theology is inconsistent with scripture, and is indirectly stating that we do not have to follow Jesus and be obedient to His commandments.

(Continued...)
 
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Lysimachus

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(Continuing...)

The basis of God's Government is still the 10 commandments. That is the foundational platform for which ALL laws of Christ hang from, and are extended from. The mosaic laws revolving the sanctuary services, and various ceremonies such as circumcision, slaying of the lamb, burnt offerings, meat offerings, etc. etc. were not laws of righteousness. They were "REMEDIES" for sinning against the moral law, for which the 10 commandments in the Ark of the Covenant was the basis for the entire agreement.
No again read Hebrews.

Hebrews is one of my favorite books, and I read it all the time. I use it all the time to prove what I believe, so not sure how Hebrews helps you any. Hebrews helps me. I say the same thing. Read Hebrews, and you will see that there has been a change in the law concerning the priesthood, from the Levitical priesthood to the Melcisedec priesthood. Therefore, all earthly priestly ministries have changes. Not the law! God says "I change not". Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled [Gr: accomplished]" (Matthew 5:18). Many like to say this word "fulfilled" here referring to the cross, but no it isn't. It's talking about the end of the world. The Greek word is "ganomai", which means "accomplished, ended". The antecedent to "fulfilled" here is "till heaven and earth pass", which proves it's referring to the entire time span of the earth and heaven, not the cross. The Greek word for "fulfil" just ONE verse before (verse 17) is "pleroo", which means "to fill up to the brim". Meaning, to "live up to its fullest as an example", which was to show us how to keep it.

What was blotted out at the cross was not the 10 commandments written by the finger of God, but the "handwritten laws of Moses were were against us, pointing forward to Christ's death". These were "shadows". The Sabbath points BACKWARDS to creation. The ceremonial Sabbaths (see Ezekiel 45:17 and Hosea 2:11) which were "her sabbaths" (Israel's Sabbaths, not the "Sabbath of the Lord").

Paul clarified which Sabbaths he was talking about pretty well: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat [offerings], drink [offerings], or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Col 2:16,17).

The Creation Sabbath was instituted before any Jew came into existence, and even before sin found its way into the world according to Mark 2:27 and Genesis 2:2,3.

Besides all of this, the article entitled "The Three Principles of the Covenants" that I wrote is sufficient alone to prove the continuing validity of the 4th commandment. Let's not fail to mention that Christ recognized that it would be obviously important in Matthew 24:20, which was pointing toward 70 A.D. during the siege of Jerusalem by Titus.

May we take the sword unsheathed, and apply the naked sword to the naked heart, and let the Word carve us into His image!

~ Lysimachus
 
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Lysimachus

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I should also mention that Christ never taught that the letter of the law was to be erased. The Tables of Stone are the "foundation". Christ came to not "replace" the 10 Commandments, He came to "add" meaning to them, showing how we keep them through the spirit of the law. The letter of the Law says "do not commit adultery". The Spirit of the Law says "do not look upon a woman to lust after her". Think about it, does the Spirit&#65279; of the Law erase the Letter? Of course not! If you keep the spirit you'll keep the letter!

It is absolutely impossible for it to not be okay to look upon a woman to lust after her and commit adultery in our heart, yet for it to be okay to phyisically commit adultery with her.

Christ's mission was not about helping the Jews see the mechanical keepings of the commandments. He was trying to elevate their minds to a higher level...that it is all based on love. The keeping of the commandments are useless if the motivation to keep them is not based on true, genuine, and repentant love. If they are kept only as a ticket to heaven, or to try and earn salvation, such people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It has to transfer from the head to the heart in order to avail anything for the soul. Otherwise, it is meaningless legalism.
 
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Jay217

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Having influence over 1/6th of the World Population spread across all time zones definitely has It's own sort of power. And having the Centralized Papacy gives the Pope absolute power- means that he is more influential than any single religion, so hearing he's one of the top 10 is un-surprising.

Obama is a complete idiot IMHO and he's #2.

Personal opinions on a person doesn't change what that one person can do or can influence.

Learn it, deal with it, move on

/End Topic
 
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