Christian Zionism - a modern-day heresy?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2009

Son of Israel said:
Or the British Israelites...
The Balfour Declaration to annex the "Jews" into that land over there was soley intended to force their concept of their future "kingdom of God" into coming to pass on the earth.
It is the biggest delusion since eve listened to the words of the serpent...

Interesting. I never read much about that

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The name Balfour Declaration is applied to two key British government policy statements associated with Conservative statesman and former Prime Minister Arthur Balfour.

The first is the Balfour Declaration of 1917: An official letter from the British Foreign Office headed by Lord Arthur Balfour, the UK's Foreign Secretary (from December 1916 to October 1919), to Baron Rothschild, who was seen as a representative of the Jewish people. The letter stated that the British government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

The second is the Balfour Declaration of 1926, recognizing the self-governing Dominions of the British Empire as fully autonomous states.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 9, 2010

Shameless bump

PilgrimToChrist · Apr 9, 2010

I said "yes" because of the relationship to eschatology, as defined in the OP. However, G.K. Chesterton supported the Zionist movement as a solution to "The Jewish Problem" in Europe. Others supported the movement for practical reasons. We tend to think of the Nazis as slaughtering Jews en masse from the beginning but that was only at the very end, originally they supported Zionism in the same way that both the "Black to Africa Movement" and the KKK in America supported the emigration of Blacks to the invented country of Liberia (Malcom X referred to one meeting which he observed between Black leaders and Klan leaders as bizarre).

As a nationalist, I can appreciate both the claims of the Palestinians and the Israelis. My problem with Israel is that it is a construction of the United Nations as a move of pity because of the Holocaust and not a natural development. Liberal Jews (though only as a particular example of this trend of liberalism) appeal to victimhood and pity rather than self-sufficiency.

Zionism is a controversial belief, even among Jews. There have been many Jews who have spoken out against the national-socialist Zionist movement. The socialism of Theodore Herzl is expressed in the left-wing Kibbutz and his violent imperialism (false nationalism) is expressed daily in the attacks on the native Palestinians.

The Church has eclipsed the nation of Israel, as the true Israel. This does not, however, mean that the ethnic Jewish people have no role in prophecy, as St. Paul affirms, a portion of the Jewish people will enter the Church as a representative of Israel and be saved. This has everything to do with the conversion of Jews to Christianity and nothing to do with Zionism.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 29, 2010

PilgrimToChrist said:
I said "yes" because of the relationship to eschatology, as defined in the OP. However, G.K. Chesterton supported the Zionist movement as a solution to "The Jewish Problem" in Europe. Others supported the movement for practical reasons. We tend to think of the Nazis as slaughtering Jews en masse from the beginning but that was only at the very end, originally they supported Zionism in the same way that both the "Black to Africa Movement" and the KKK in America supported the emigration of Blacks to the invented country of Liberia (Malcom X referred to one meeting which he observed between Black leaders and Klan leaders as bizarre).

As a nationalist, I can appreciate both the claims of the Palestinians and the Israelis. My problem with Israel is that it is a construction of the United Nations as a move of pity because of the Holocaust and not a natural development. Liberal Jews (though only as a particular example of this trend of liberalism) appeal to victimhood and pity rather than self-sufficiency.

Zionism is a controversial belief, even among Jews. There have been many Jews who have spoken out against the national-socialist Zionist movement. The socialism of Theodore Herzl is expressed in the left-wing Kibbutz and his violent imperialism (false nationalism) is expressed daily in the attacks on the native Palestinians.

The Church has eclipsed the nation of Israel, as the true Israel. This does not, however, mean that the ethnic Jewish people have no role in prophecy, as St. Paul affirms, a portion of the Jewish people will enter the Church as a representative of Israel and be saved. This has everything to do with the conversion of Jews to Christianity and nothing to do with Zionism.

Great post!

Dr.Strangelove · Dec 19, 2010

I voted yes but I'm not sure about using the word 'heresy'

It's a little harsh.

The Christians who are dominionist about the nation state of isreal are uhm...

......very, very confused.

EDIT: Christian Zionist leaders/teachers are another matter. People like John Hagee who teach that Jews don't need Jesus are heretics indeed. They should know better.

CryptoLutheran · Dec 19, 2010

The Jerusalem Declaration on Christian Zionism, signed by the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and the leaders of the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land.

Found here.

-CryptoLutheran

Dr.Strangelove · Dec 19, 2010

CryptoLutheran said:
The Jerusalem Declaration on Christian Zionism, signed by the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and the leaders of the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land.

Found here.

-CryptoLutheran

Wow! thats amazing.

So now we're just waiting for the pope and the talmudic rabbis to sign up and then we're golden yeah?

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF

HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Waiting........waiting.............

Nice find Crypto.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 19, 2010

Dr.Strangelove said:
Wow! thats amazing.

So now we're just waiting for the pope and the talmudic rabbis to sign up and then we're golden yeah?

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF

HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Waiting........waiting.............

Nice find Crypto.

How do you view the "Babylon" in Revelation?
I couldn't find much on how the ECFs view it :sorry:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263327&page=3
Early ECFs and Queen/Babylon in Revelation

Dr.Strangelove · Dec 19, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
How do you view the "Babylon" in Revelation?
I couldn't find much on how the ECFs view it

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263327&page=3
Early ECFs and Queen/Babylon in Revelation

Babylon is confusion.

Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots is quite clearly Jerusalem and those who fornicate there.

I see it as that 'Great City's' influence on the world. Which has its religious HQ in Jerusalem, financial HQ in London and political HQ in New York (U.N.)

child of Jesus · Dec 19, 2010

Dr.Strangelove said:
Babylon is confusion.

Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots is quite clearly Jerusalem and those who fornicate there.

I see it as that 'Great City's' influence on the world. Which has its religious HQ in Jerusalem, financial HQ in London and political HQ in New York (U.N.)

here she is:

ZECHARIAH 5
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. 6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. 7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar [BABYLON]: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Zechariah 5 KJV :preach:

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 19, 2010

Dr.Strangelove said:
Babylon is confusion.

Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots is quite clearly Jerusalem and those who fornicate there.

I see it as that 'Great City's' influence on the world. Which has its religious HQ in Jerusalem, financial HQ in London and political HQ in New York (U.N.)

child of Jesus said:
here she is:

ZECHARIAH 5
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. 6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. 7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar [BABYLON]: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Zechariah 5 KJV

I also like this verse in Ezekiel 8:3 in relation to John being carried by a Spirit to

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit she is lifting me between the Land and the Heavens, and is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate, the inner the one facing north-ward
which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously.
[Revelation 17:3]

Reve 17:3 And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.
[Ezekiel 8:3]

child of Jesus · Dec 19, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
I also like this verse in Ezekiel 8:3 in relation to John being carried by a Spirit to

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit she is lifting me between the Land and the Heavens, and is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate, the inner the one facing north-ward
which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously.
[Revelation 17:3]

Reve 17:3 And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.
[Ezekiel 8:3]

hey Lamb:
cool!
1) which Bible are you using?

2) what do you make of this? it adds up (imo)...particularly in light of Jesus' comments in Rev 2:9/3:9, and we know that the Herods were converts to judaism.

*note: i don't endorse everything from the following at its source, and the use of the words antichrist is unfortunate (son of perdition is better, ya?)

...The ten horn beast kingdom is mentioned in Daniel 7:7 as being the fourth beast in his vision. That fourth beast is the Roman empire without question. It is a fact the Catholic Church took on the identity of the Roman Empire and today papal Rome carries by inheritance any and all rebuke and judgment of God against Rome. Papal Rome will always be in league with the antichrist in Israel. The future antichrist to come to Jerusalem will have Papal blessings and authority.

The ten horns then are understood to be ten kings, rulers, or emperors that would rule during the time of the Messiah. We start the first of the ten with Caesar Augustus and indeed he is mentioned with the birth of Jesus. He is the first horn or power of the fourth beast that has to do with the Messianic fulfillment. If we then count the next ten emperors we end up with Titus who destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24.

The seven heads are not mentioned in Daniel and are first found in Revelation 12:3 and 13:1. These seven must reign at the same time of the fourth beast and the ten horns or emperors. The beast with seven heads and ten horns is not an endtime event and it is NOT THE ROMAN EMPIRE REVIVED! The second beast that comes up AFTER the first beast ends is the endtime event. The second beast is not the European Common Market because there are more than ten nations in that federation. The Seven heads are not the seven hills of Rome.

The seven heads are Jerusalem which we will now prove.

The focus of the metal-man image and the revealing of the four beasts is to reveal the events of the nations that lead up to the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of the image by the stone hewn out of the mountain that filled the whole earth. That stone is the Church as the Kingdom of God. This is not a millennial fulfillment but a fulfillment of what happened at Calvary. The stone taken out of the mountain is the Church Kingdom born out of Calvary's sacrifice.

We can see then that the seven heads previously mentioned must have connection with Israel as that is the focus of the Messianic fulfillment. These seven agree exactly with the Herods. During the time of the reign of the ten horns in Rome there reigned in Israel seven Herods under that power. These were the antichrist forces in world power at the time of Jesus and the Apostles up to 70AD.

A separate seven heads is revealed in Revelation 17:9 and are identified as the seven mountains where the harlot sitteth. This is further identified as the seven hills of Jerusalem and called the *great city* where also our Lord was crucified. The witchcraft system of Kabbalah within paganized Judaism (Talmudism), is called Mystery Babylon the Great. Because it came out of Babylon by the Pharisees and other occult mystics.

One of these seven heads or hills had a wound by a sword, this head or hill is Mount Moriah (the temple mount), and the sword was the war of Titus that destroyed it in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24....

Seven Heads And Ten Horns

3) also,
we know Jesus' geneology is Luke 3 (that He came through David but via NATHAN to Mary), and we know unbelieving jews partially reject Jesus as Messiah since they are told the mosaich must come through David, but through SOLOMON.....

six hundred threescore and six is only mentioned x2:

1 Kings 10:14
Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

the Kings context, as you know, involves Hiram & Tyre. there's that occult connection (the BUILDERS)...can you shed more light on this?

~ child :preach:

CryptoLutheran · Dec 19, 2010

Dr.Strangelove said:
Wow! thats amazing.

So now we're just waiting for the pope and the talmudic rabbis to sign up and then we're golden yeah?

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF

HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Waiting........waiting.............

Nice find Crypto.

...What?

-CryptoLutheran

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 19, 2010

Originally Posted by Dr.Strangelove Wow! thats amazing.

So now we're just waiting for the pope and the talmudic rabbis to sign up and then we're golden yeah?

CryptoLutheran said:
...What?

-CryptoLutheran

Aren't there some that view the Pope/Papacy in Revelation? Perhaps that is what he was referring to

http://www.christianforums.com/t7521127/#post56384519

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Are you implying that the Roman Catholic Church is the Harlot?

Response:

I didn't imply anything - I stated it was so. Nearly every Bible scholar and commentator believes this is quite clear, so it isn't just my opinion. I doubt that anyone will be able to come up with an alternate view that matches so perfectly the description. As we speak, it is changing into the one world church that the Anti-Christ will use for his rise to power. The entire description fits perfectly - colors and all.

child of Jesus · Dec 19, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Aren't there some that view the Pope/Papacy in Revelation? Perhaps that is what he was referring to

http://www.christianforums.com/t7521127/#post56384519

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Are you implying that the Roman Catholic Church is the Harlot?

Response:

I didn't imply anything - I stated it was so. Nearly every Bible scholar and commentator believes this is quite clear, so it isn't just my opinion. I doubt that anyone will be able to come up with an alternate view that matches so perfectly the description. As we speak, it is changing into the one world church that the Anti-Christ will use for his rise to power. The entire description fits perfectly - colors and all.

Lamb, this is a little confusing:
do you say The Mother is Rome?

i believe she is a daughter, but not The Mother. she's a very flamboyant harlot, for certain, but is she the Mother?

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT

CATHOLIC OR JEWISH?

....Little wonder that one Jewish convert to Roman Catholicism made the astounding statement that entering the Catholic Church was not a conversion experience for him, but rather a continuation of Judaism. Roy Schoeman, the author of Salvation is from the Jews, confirms as well that the Mass is based on the Jewish ceremonial worship and that Catholic theology is based on the Old Testament!

As a Jew coming to the Catholic Church, it was natural for me to find the relationship between Judaism and the Catholic Church among the most interesting things in the world. It was obvious to me that for a Jew to enter the Catholic Church wasnt a matter of conversion at all, but was rather simply coming into the fullness of Judaism into the form that Judaism took after the coming of the Jewish Messiah.
Although Catholics are aware of this in principle, they often dont think of the Catholic Church as the continuation of Judaism after the Messiah... Its everywhere you look. Its obviously in the Sacrifice of the Mass and the way the Mass is prefigured in Jewish ceremonial worship. Its in the role that the Old Testament, Jewish Scripture have in Catholic theology and the structure of the Catholic Faith. [Seattle Catholic]

A listing of parallels between Roman Catholicism and Judaism, which have analogues in the Eastern Orthodox Church as well, presented us with the startling prospect that Roman Catholicism may have been a Judaized form of Christianity from its inception. In the list of traditions below, links to the Catholic Encyclopedia show that the Roman Catholic Church justifies most of its practices by appealing to the Old Testament. Even in cases where the New Testament is cited as justification, these practices are not required under the New Covenant but have their basis in Judaism.

Priesthood (cf. Levitical priesthood/mediators between God and men)
Pope (cf. Jewish High Priest)
College of Cardinals (70) (cf. seventy elders of Moses/Deut.17:8)
Confession of sins to priest for forgiveness (cf. Lev.5:5)
Daily sacrifice of the Mass (cf. Daily burnt offering / Heb.10:11)
Altars for sacrifices
Altar vessels of gold and silver
Vestments for priests
Cardinals skullcap (cf. Jewish yarmulke)
Offertory (cf. Offerings)
Church buildings for worship (cf. Temple)
Liturgy (cf. service of the Temple)
Sunday obligation (cf. Sabbath observance)
Ecclesiastical Feasts (cf. Jewish feasts)
Scapular / Hairshirt (cf. Sackcloth)
Works-based salvation (cf. Mosaic Law)
Sacrament of infant baptism (cf. Rite of Circumcision / Talmud)
Wafer-only Communion (cf. Manna/Shew Bread)
Sacrament of Confirmation (cf. Jewish Bar/Bat Mitzvah)
Burning of candles and incense (cf. Exodus 30)
Holy water font (cf. The Laver / Exodus 40)
No salvation outside the (Catholic) Church (Gentiles must convert to Judaism to be saved)

The following Roman Catholic traditions were not part of the Mosaic Law but were adopted by the Israelites in their apostasy:

Traditions of men (Mark 7:6-13)
Vain repetitions (Lip service (Isa.29:13)
Veneration of saints (Idolatry/pagan gods)
Worship of Mary as Mother of God (Jews worshipped Queen of Heaven / Jer. 44)
Statues/images (images on the walls of Solomons Temple) (Ezek 8:10)
Demotion of Jesus to Co-Redeemer (cf. Jews denial of Jesus as Messiah)
Preoccupation with Christs death rather than resurrection (Jews denial of Jesus resurrection)

The above is only a partial catalog of Jewish traditions found in Roman Catholicism. The sacerdotal (priesthood) and daily sacrificial systems alone strongly implicate the Roman Catholic Church as, not only a front for apostate Judaism, but as a vehicle for converting Christians, without their knowledge, to the very religious system that rejected Jesus Christ. One commentary compares the Roman Catholic teaching on salvation to that preached in Judaism:

The Catholic perspective on salvation is largely judaized Christianity. In the days of the Apostles, many Jewish Christians believed that Christians had to follow all the requirements of the Mosaic Law, e.g., circumcision, the system of offerings, going to a priest to have sins forgiven, making sacrifices as atonement for sins, etc. A system that requires some type of priest to act as an intercessor between the layperson and God is known as a sacerdotal system (from the Latin word sacerdote, meaning priest.)

In view of the striking parallels between Roman Catholicism and Judaism, it becomes apparent that Roman Catholicism represents, to a remarkable degree, the triumph of the Judaizers. How did it happen that the doctrines, rites and traditions of Judaism crept into the Church at Rome?

http://watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html

child of Jesus · Dec 19, 2010

~ and in keeping with a partial preterist view, could we not have the same drama playing out one last time?

i.e.: the same apostate Jerusalem in Jesus' Day (in league with Rome) could be happening again?

COMMISSION FOR RELIGIOUS RELATIONS WITH THE JEWS
THE DELEGATION OF THE HOLY SEE'S COMMISSION
FOR RELIGIOUS RELATIONS WITH THE JEWS
AND THE CHIEF RABBINATE OF ISRAEL'S DELEGATION
FOR RELATIONS WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
BILATERAL COMMISSION MEETING

Jerusalem, March 11-13, 2007; Adar 21-23, 5767

1. At the seventh meeting of the above commission, held in Jerusalem, the chairmen Cardinal Jorge Mejia and Chief Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen noted the significance of the number seven within the biblical tradition as indicating fullness and maturity. They expressed the hope that the fullness of the relationship between the Catholic and the Jewish members of this commission will be a source of blessing to both faith communities and the world at large.

Cardinal Mejia also noted the recent passing of Cardinal Johannes Willebrands former president of the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews and a central figure in the historic transformation in Catholic-Jewish relations. May his memory always be for a blessing.

2. The subject of the meeting was the Freedom of Religion and Conscience and its Limits. The human capacity to choose is a
manifestation of the Divine Image in which all people are created (cf. Gn

1: 26-27) and is foundational for the Biblical concept of human responsibility and Divine justice (cf. Dt 30: 19).
3. God has created the human person as a social being which by definition places limits on individual human freedom. Moreover freedom of choice is derived from God and therefore is not absolute, but must reflect Divine will and law. Accordingly human beings are called to freely obey the Divine will as manifested in the Creation and in His revealed word.

Jewish tradition emphasizes the Noachide Covenant (cf. Gn 9: 9-12) as containing. the universal moral code which is incumbent on all humanity. This idea is reflected in Christian Scripture in the Book of Acts 15: 28-29.

Bilateral Commission Meeting, Jerusalem, March 11-13, 2007; Adar 21-23, 5767

canukian · Dec 19, 2010

do you peple speed read or what... sheesh!

OrthodoxyUSA · Dec 19, 2010

We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation.

Forgive me...

Dr.Strangelove · Dec 20, 2010

CryptoLutheran said:
...What?

-CryptoLutheran

I was just saying that we'll be waiting a loooooong time for the Mother and her major Harlot to sign off on that document.

Dr.Strangelove · Dec 20, 2010

child of Jesus said:
Lamb, this is a little confusing:
do you say The Mother is Rome?

i believe she is a daughter, but not The Mother. she's a very flamboyant harlot, for certain, but is she the Mother?

I think LittleLamb was quoting someone elses response there CJ. He knows who the real harlot is.

Christian Zionism - a modern-day heresy?

Christian Zionism = A modern heresy?

Yes

No

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