Haughtiness and "Pharisee-ism"

OllieFranz · Jul 21, 2010

Can we have a simple definition of the word "haughty" as used in the Bible? And a simple explanation of what, exactly, Jesus was addressing when He called certain Pharisees "white-washed sepulchres" and gave them less than honorable roles in His parables and other teachings?

I want definitions everyone can agree with so that we can discuss the issue rationally, so please don't add anything to your definitions. Especially hold back from snide remarks about those who hold the opposing position in any other debates in this forum.

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

OllieFranz said:
Can we have a simple definition of the word "haughty" as used in the Bible?

How would we be able to do this? We will actually have to attach real people to our defintiion. Take for example many of the typical Hollywood types that rant and rave about civil rights.

And a simple explanation of what, exactly, Jesus was addressing when He called certain Pharisees "white-washed sepulchres" and gave them less than honorable roles in His parables and other teachings?

I think that is far easier. But again, it will entail attaching real names to real people. Or at least, relgious leaders and some vocal religious types.

I want definitions everyone can agree with so that we can discuss the issue rationally, so please don't add anything to your definitions. Especially hold back from snide remarks about those who hold the opposing position in any other debates in this forum.

This is a great subject matter. Both words denote an uncaring air towards others and a selfshiness that indwells the haughty and pharisee type person.

Jase · Jul 22, 2010

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

What kind of people mocked both Lot and Jesus?

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

Excuse me . . .

And Noah?

OllieFranz · Jul 22, 2010

Jase said:
Yes, how dare we push for everyone to be treated like a human being. Curse those civil rights!

As for an example of "haughty" and "phariseeic", I can't think of a better example than American fundamentalism.

And this is exactly why I specifically asked that you hold back from snide remarks about the opposing view. Not only is it an ad hominem attack, but without a clear definition, it becomes an empty insult that can be neither proven nor refuted.

OllieFranz · Jul 22, 2010

onemorequestion said:
How would we be able to do this? We will actually have to attach real people to our defintiion. Take for example many of the typical Hollywood types that rant and rave about civil rights.

I think that is far easier. But again, it will entail attaching real names to real people. Or at least, relgious leaders and some vocal religious types.

This is a great subject matter. Both words denote an uncaring air towards others and a selfshiness that indwells the haughty and pharisee type person.

I am not saying that you can't include exemplars, but first define the words. (Of course if you define them well enough, the exemplars may be unnecessary).

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

OllieFranz said:
I am not saying that you can't include exemplars, but first define the words. (Of course if you define them well enough, the exemplars may be unnecessary).

I assert that it is absoluetly appropriate to highlight the Hollywood attitude as 100% haughtiness and pride. I was not the one that wanted to turn this into a mindless bash-fest.

When you look at modern day parlance and culture, you see that "haughtiness" fits the fruit of liberal and progressive religiosity. When you take into consideration "phariseeism" you can take into consideration ONLY the very extreme literalists on the fringes of Catholic and Protestant religious expression.

The Gospel could be used to utterly condemn a vast majority of what liberalism and progressive activism has fostered onto the Church, and the Gospel can be used to utterly denounce a fragment of the literalist position.

Is that OK?

OllieFranz · Jul 22, 2010

onemorequestion said:
I assert that it is absoluetly appropriate to highlight the Hollywood attitude as 100% haughtiness and pride. I was not the one that wanted to turn this into a mindless bash-fest.

When you look at modern day parlance and culture, you see that "haughtiness" fits the fruit of liberal and progressive religiosity. When you take into consideration "phariseeism" you can take into consideration ONLY the very extreme literalists on the fringes of Catholic and Protestant religious expression.

The Gospel could be used to utterly condemn a vast majority of what liberalism and progressive activism has fostered onto the Church, and the Gospel can be used to utterly denounce a fragment of the literalist position.

Is that OK?

I agree that the comments and questions in your first post were not over the top, but well within the scope of my OP, that is why I answered honestly and encouragingly. It was not your post I suggested was an empty insult.

With this post, however, you are inching closer to it. I realize that when you feel yourself under attack, the natural response is to retaliate in kind. I'm asking you to resist that urge.

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

OllieFranz said:
I agree that the comments and questions in your first post were not over the top, but well within the scope of my OP, that is why I answered honestly and encouragingly. It was not your post I suggested was an empty insult.

Hopefully the mods will deal with it.

With this post, however, you are inching closer to it.

The Sodomites were haughty and proud. THAT was THEIR sin. That means you have to attach the behavior to those that are engaging in it. I object that I have attacked anyone unfairly. I did submit their fruit as testimony against them.

I realize that when you feel yourself under attack, the natural response is to retaliate in kind. I'm asking you to resist that urge.

I object to any accusation that I did so. I have shown how effortless it is to defeat this liberal/progressive theology time and time again and all I use is history and scripture applied logically.

C'mon now. YOU knew this was a wrestling match you were setting up. You must.

Hentenza · Jul 22, 2010

OllieFranz said:
Can we have a simple definition of the word "haughty" as used in the Bible? And a simple explanation of what, exactly, Jesus was addressing when He called certain Pharisees "white-washed sepulchres" and gave them less than honorable roles in His parables and other teachings?

I want definitions everyone can agree with so that we can discuss the issue rationally, so please don't add anything to your definitions. Especially hold back from snide remarks about those who hold the opposing position in any other debates in this forum.

Haughty is a synonym of pride. Basically a haughty person puts their accomplishments ahead of what God has already accomplished. The haughty proud are so blinded by their pride that they think they have no need of God or, worse, that God should accept them as they are because they deserve His acceptance.

The pharisees made the law into their own image and removed God from the equation. They self relied in their own devices. I think Psalm 10:4 explains it quite nicely.

4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;
God is in none of his thoughts.

OllieFranz · Jul 22, 2010

Hentenza said:
Haughty is a synonym of pride. Basically a haughty person puts their accomplishments ahead of what God has already accomplished. The haughty proud are so blinded by their pride that they think they have no need of God or, worse, that God should accept them as they are because they deserve His acceptance.

The pharisees made the law into their own image and removed God from the equation. They self relied in their own devices. I think Psalm 10:4 explains it quite nicely.

4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;
God is in none of his thoughts.

Now this is the kind of post I was hoping to see. Thank you.

I'll hold off on further comment until some other definitions are posted, so I can evaluate them against one another.

Jase · Jul 22, 2010

OllieFranz said:
And this is exactly why I specifically asked that you hold back from snide remarks about the opposing view. Not only is it an ad hominem attack, but without a clear definition, it becomes an empty insult that can be neither proven nor refuted.

Deleted. My apologies. Onemorequestion provoked an emotional response based on his assumption that the "Hollywood" mentality (whatever that means) defines haughty and phariseeism, because they are concerned about the rights of others.

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

OllieFranz said:
Now this is the kind of post I was hoping to see. Thank you.

I'll hold off on further comment until some other definitions are posted, so I can evaluate them against one another.

Jesus, as did the Prophets before Him and as did the Apostles after Him, pointed at real people and declared who was and who wasn't an example of haughtiness and empty religious leaders.

Here's your OP:

OllieFranz said:
Can we have a simple definition of the word "haughty" as used in the Bible? And a simple explanation of what, exactly, Jesus was addressing when He called certain Pharisees "white-washed sepulchres" and gave them less than honorable roles in His parables and other teachings?

OllieFranz said:
I want definitions everyone can agree with so that we can discuss the issue rationally, so please don't add anything to your definitions. Especially hold back from snide remarks about those who hold the opposing position in any other debates in this forum.

onemorequestion · Jul 22, 2010

Jase said:
Deleted. My apologies. Onemorequestion provoked an emotional response based on his assumption that the "Hollywood" mentality (whatever that means) defines haughty and phariseeism, because they are concerned about the rights of others.

How is my position wrong about Hollywood types not being haughty in word and deed?

And my definition of Pharisee seems to align with Biblical writ as well.

I-can-see · Jul 23, 2010

Haughty is pride, and thinking that you are better anyone else. High on your horse...an extreme superiority complex.

Many religious people get this way, and believe that they are unable to learn from others that they consider beneath them...whether it is do to difference in religion, or difference in age.

Phinehas2 · Jul 23, 2010

The popular conception of this is an 'I am better than you' attitude, or a sort of
self righteousness but in secular terms without any reference to righteousness that comes from God.
In fact Christ addressed both the pride of the self righteousness of looking down on others and the pride of superior knowledge. He told the story of the man (Pharisee I think) who said thank God he was not as bad as another sinner, and the Pharisees who questioned what Jesus said.
Liberalism spots the former easily, sadly it does the latter.

onemorequestion · Jul 23, 2010

I-can-see said:
Haughty is pride, and thinking that you are better anyone else. High on your horse...an extreme superiority complex.

Then haughtiness can be attached to secular humnaism and its resulting liberal and progressive movements. The adherants of these lifestyles believe they are better suited to tell everyone else how to live their lives because they are truly "enlightened" and most everyone else is not.

That is pure haughtiness.

Many religious people get this way, and believe that they are unable to learn from others that they consider beneath them...whether it is do to difference in religion, or difference in age.

Then, what the Pharisees were guilty of per Jesus was haughtiness.

Obvioulsy they were not "fundamentalists" but overly proud and boastful . . . as loving God and loving your neighbor were already written and canonized in and for the religious lives of the Israelites.

I like this thread.

Phinehas2 · Jul 23, 2010

Yes of course one can boast and still be humble, one can boast in Christ. It is not I but anything of Christ in me that is good.

Phinehas2 · Jul 23, 2010

onemorequestion said:
Then haughtiness can be attached to secular humnaism and its resulting liberal and progressive movements. The adherants of these lifestyles believe they are better suited to tell everyone else how to live their lives because they are truly "enlightened" and most everyone else is not.

That is pure haughtiness.

Haughtiness and "Pharisee-ism"

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