Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

"Only one person has even attempted to answer my valid questions. This shows me that people believe in Jesus is God because they were told to, not because the Holy Spirit has led them to it or they have read it in scripture. People SHOULD follow God blindly but not men."

JesusServant, I'll try to answer your questions. I have not read the rest of the posts but I take it you don't believe in trinity. So what's a question for me? Better make that 2 people now on your list!

Originally posted by Ben johnson
One person? Was that one person, ME?

--------------------------------------------------
Jesus accepted worship. Jesus said, _I_ will raise MYSELF up on the third day. Jesus called Himself God. But perhaps what is more significant than all of this, is the secondary testimony.

The people HEARING Jesus understood Himself to be calling Himself, GOD!

"Blasphemy! You are a man, and make yourself out to BE GOD!" Jn10:33

Equally significant, is the fact that Jesus did not contradict them!

Because directly affirming His godhood would cause Jesus to immediately be stoned, He asserted it obiquely. Yet the message came through loud and clear.

The Jews heard much more of what Jesus said than we have heard.

The Jews understood Him to be calling Himself God.

If we refuse to accept Jesus as God, we reject Jesus' own assertions, and we reject the FIRSTHAND TESTIMONY OF THE WITNESSES.

The Jews' witness remains---Jesus called Himself God.

And Jesus did not deny what they clearly heard...
-----------------------------------------------------------

I think it is significant what Jesus did NOT say. When He was worshipped, He did NOT rebuke the worshipper nor refuse the worship---and He, being righteous and godly, knowing full well the level of blasphemy exhibitted by one who is NOT-God but receives worship!

You can dismiss Jn8:58 and 10:30 (because you think there are multiple interpretations of them)---but you cannot dismiss the reaction of the JEWS who were THERE. They SAW and HEARD Jesus, and THEY said He was CALLING HIMSELF GOD...

In Matt3:10, Jesus affirms that only GOD shall be worshipped. Shall I list all the verses where Jesus accepted worship? How could He know that ONLY GOD shall be worshipped, but ACCEPT worship?

How could He---unless He believed He was GOD???

Click to expand...

Personaly I think you should do better than guess at what people thought, and implications. we are looking for something more concrete.

   Originally posted by Apologist
Don't you find it interesting that if the Trinity were a false doctrine that the early church fathers would have not believed it?

Click to expand...

Well, not really ap, they had to accept the trinity because their lives depended on it!  If they rejected it they would face death by burning at the stake!

  
All of these early church fathers taught the doctrine of the Trinity: Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Polycarp of Smyrna, Mathetes, Tatian the Syrian, Athenagoras, Melito of Sardis, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Clement Of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Novatian, Cyprian of Carthage, Dionysius, and Gregory the Wonder-worker.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear that all these fellers taught the trinity but just because they did, that doesn't mean they were right!  Men are fallible, the word of God is inspiration and that means it is infallible. Here are some example of the inspired word of God and the words of Christ starting with Peter:

When Jesus asks Peter, "But who do you say I am? " Peter answers,

"You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Then, Jesus says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father " (Matthew 16: 15 - 17). Notice that Peter says "Son of the living God." He could just as simply have said, " You are God," but he doesn’t. Jesus then tells Peter that the Father has blessed him by revealing to him who he is. Jesus is the Son OF God, not God.

"So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases Him."   

John 12: 49  "For I do not speak of my own accord but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

This is Jesus speaking Ap, don't you think we can trust His words over the men you have listed?  I'll give that a resounding YES!  Now, for Paul:

Romans 1: 3 "Regarding His Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of Holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God."

 1 Corinthians 15: 21 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man."

Notice Ap, Paul said "through a man" ?  Why didn't he say through God?  Because Paul knew better, he knew that His brother, Jesus was not God but He was a man of flesh and blood like all other men.  At the same time a unique man created/begotten by the power spirit of God the father! 

Oh and Ben if your out there, begotten has the same meaning as created, go to your favorite dictionary and look it up.  Your just mincing words when you and the others say because He was begotten that means Jesus wasn't created.  Also, Jesus didn't pre-exist!  He started to exist the day he was conceived and born! 

  
But I guess all of these men were wrong.

Click to expand...

The guys you have listed, yes, they were wrong according to scripture!  I will trust the words of Jesus and the inspired writers, thank you very much and as Paul Harvey always says, Good Day !

 

Personaly I think you should do better than guess at what people thought, and implications. we are looking for something more concrete.

Click to expand...

Gosh, I don't know how you could get any more concrete than, "You're calling Yourself GOD!"

Oh and Ben if your out there, begotten has the same meaning as created, go to your favorite dictionary and look it up. Your just mincing words when you and the others say because He was begotten that means Jesus wasn't created. Also, Jesus didn't pre-exist! He started to exis]t the day he was conceived and born!

Click to expand...

"No beginning, no end, no father or mother, but became LIKE the Son of God." Heb7

Jesus existed in the FORM of God, but being found in the APPEARANCE of a man laid aside His priviledges, even to the Cross. He did not regard EQUALITY with God to be ROBBERY... Philip2...

@ Franklin

Originally posted by franklin
Here are some example of the inspired word of God and the words of Christ starting with Peter:

When Jesus asks Peter, "But who do you say I am? " Peter answers,

"You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Then, Jesus says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father " (Matthew 16: 15 - 17). Notice that Peter says "Son of the living God." He could just as simply have said, " You are God," but he doesn’t. Jesus then tells Peter that the Father has blessed him by revealing to him who he is. Jesus is the Son OF God, not God.

Click to expand...

Then I guess you missed it altogether when Jesus appeared to the disciples after His resurrection in John 20:26-28:


And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Here Thomas explicitly calls Jesus, "God."

Originally posted by Apologist
Then I guess you missed it altogether when Jesus appeared to the disciples after His resurrection in John 20:26-28:
And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Here Thomas explicitly calls Jesus, "God."

Click to expand...

Oh my here you go again, just because another Apostle refers to Jesus as God! No AP, I didn't miss it at all!  I used the same passages and most of the usual standard verses when I fought to defend the trinity so don't feel bad my friend.  

Thomas is addressing Jesus as the king of Israel in the same way David addressed Saul in the OT:

 1 Samuel 24:9 states:"David also stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, "My lord and my king."

When Thomas called Jesus "My lord and my God " all the Apostles were in the room right?  Now if that is the case, then it is logical to assume that from now on, all the Apostles know that Jesus is really God. So from that point onward Jesus should be addressed as God.  So in other words the rest of the NT writings all of the Apostles would have been calling Jesus God but none of those writings ever show that.  Not once in the entire New Testament do they ever pray to Jesus. They always made clear distinctions between the two.  There are no contradictions in scripture but when you put the trinity in there, thats all you have is one contradiction after another!  It just isn't made to fit the word of God.  The only way it is made to fit is when the preachers and the slick theologians tell you it's there when it is not.  Most believers are to afraid to even bring up the question for fear of being suspected as a heritic!  Oh my, just think about it?  You might be looked upon as a heritic from some secret cult.  It amazes me everytime something is proven from strictly scripture your considered a cult and heritic!  Amazing, simply and incredibly amazing! 

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Jesus existed in the FORM of God, but being found in the APPEARANCE of a man laid aside His priviledges, even to the Cross. He did not regard EQUALITY with God to be ROBBERY... Philip2... @ Franklin 

Click to expand...

Ben, it's time to get real and stop playing games with the word of God OK? 

Philippians 2:5-7, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

What this declares, briefly, is that Christ - though he recognized himself to be by birth the Son of God, still he did not presume upon this supremely exalted relationship, but humbly submitted to the fact that he, like all other men, owed service and obedience to God, and must "work out his salvation with fear and trembling' (see verse 12).

The meaning of this passage is illustrated perfectly by Hebrews 5:8, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered."

Notice the immediate context of Philippians 2:9, "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him..."

What you are saying in essence is one co-equal part of the Supreme One God highly exalting another co-equal part, because the latter had humbly submitted to death at the command of the former? The scripture does not ask us to accept such confusion. The phrase "being in the form of God" refers to the fact that his birth by the overshadowing Spirit-Power of God constituted him the "Son of God" (Luke 1: 35). 

No waving smiley faces here either.......

 

Ben,

It's a waste of time arguing with these people.

They think they have the correct interpretation and all they do is misinterpret it to fit their preconceived theology.

What this declares, briefly, is that Christ - though he recognized himself to be by birth the Son of God, still he did not presume upon this supremely exalted relationship, but humbly submitted to the fact that he, like all other men, owed service and obedience to God, and must "work out his salvation with fear and trembling' (see verse 12).

Click to expand...

HA HA ha! That's GOOD! Jesus must "work out His OWN salvation..."

...uhmmm, don't wanna be the first to tell ya', but, Jesus was SINLESS!2Cor5:21, Heb4:21

...soooo, He had nothing to be saved, FROM.

JESUS NEEDED NO SAVIOR!

I'm sorry, Franklin---I don't mean to be disrespectful, it's just that Jesus was the SACRIFICE for us---and as such, He was REQUIRED to be perfec and sinless. Your statement struck me as rather funny... heh heh heh...

I can quote the word-for-word English from Greek for Philip2 passage, and the Col2:9 verse too, if you'ld like; kinda makes it clear that Paul regarded Jesus, as God...

No waving smiley faces here either.......

Click to expand...

OK ya' gotta tell me, do "wavy-smiley-faces" offend you? I could try to remember not to post them to you again if they do...



UH-OH, wait---how about winking smiley-faces? (Laugh a little, Franklin---life is too short to miss a chance for laughter...)

Hi, Apologist. As with anyone, they cannot be changed until they are ready---and THEN, only GOD can change the person. All I strive to do, is (in the spirit of Titus1:9), keep refuting their arguments with pure doctrine and truth. Maybe eventually, when all of their "blocks" have been firmly knocked down, a seed of doubt will form---amd maybe the doubt will grow into a full questioning of the "JESUS-AINT-GOD" belief...

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hi, Apologist. As with anyone, they cannot be changed until they are ready---and THEN, only GOD can change the person. All I strive to do, is (in the spirit of Titus1:9), keep refuting their arguments with pure doctrine and truth. Maybe eventually, when all of their "blocks" have been firmly knocked down, a seed of doubt will form---amd maybe the doubt will grow into a full questioning of the "JESUS-AINT-GOD" belief...

Click to expand...

Amen brother. Knock yourself out, I tire of these same old arguments.

Jesus accepted worship. Jesus said, _I_ will raise MYSELF up on the third day. Jesus called Himself God. But perhaps what is more significant than all of this, is the secondary testimony.

Where is this scripture, please?

Click to expand...

Ohhh, you want the whole thing, huh??? Very well...
(Ben reaches for his "Bookman&#153" computer-Bible---blasted thing is NIV, most of the time is spent figuring how they MESSED UP the WORDS; just try to find "JEHOVAH" in the NIV....)

"Destroy this temple and _I_ will raise it up in 3 days" (His body) John2:19,21

"GOD raised Jesus" Acts 2:24, Rom10:9

WHO did the raising---JESUS, or GOD???

Jesus was WORSHIPPED: Matt14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Luke 24:52, John9:38

Jesus called Himself God: Jn8:58, 10:30 (this is not MY opinion, but the opinion of the JEWS who were THERE at the TIME and they heard far more than I did...

Wouldn't it be great if you could ask Christians questions without them being condescending?!

Click to expand...

There was no condescension from these keys. Forgive me if I conveyed that in any way.

I do have a streak of "ornery brat", but that's just a TEASING thing. A girl called me a few months back at 2:30 in the MORNING!!! "WHO in the WORLD?!?!" Glanced at the caller ID, snatched the phone and said, "Is TOM THERE PLEASE?" And all I heard was a feminine voice saying, "I-ah-ah-errrrr, just a minute..." and she went and got TOM! Leaving ME there looking at the receiver and saying, "DuuUUUuuh."

Tom said, "Hello?" I said, "HEY I'm sorry, she called me, it's a wrong number, and I'm an ornery brat." He laughed, she got back on the line and all 3 of us had a good laugh...

(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.(John 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?(John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Click to expand...

Jesus proclaims that He KNEW ABRAHAM. There is no way to deny that Jesus existed before becoming Human. Now you ask, "what did 'I AM' mean?" According to the Jews, He was calling Himself, GOD. In verse 59, they picked up stones to KILL Him---there is no way to deny that the Jews, who heard the ENTIRE conversation (we're getting it second-hand, and as John laments, "many other words of Jesus were NOT included, for the World itself could not contain all that He said." Jn21:25---no way to deny that the JEWS thought He was calling Himself, GOD.

Likewise, in John10:30, some try to contend that He meant "the Father and I are ONE IN PURPOSE" (or one in INTENT, etc.)---rather than "one in ESSENCE". But the JEWS had no trouble understanding what Jesus MEANT---as they clearly say, "YOU make Yourself out to be GOD!!!" (33) Faced with this accusation, admitting to His godhood would have earned Him an instant stoning---or rather, an ATTEMPT; in chapter 8 Jesus went INVISIBLE, as in POOFED! "Jesus WAS HIDDEN FROM THEM, and passing THROUGH THEIR MIDST went out of the temple..."

So in 10:34, Jesus was PLAYING with them. Pure sarcasm, by quoting Psalm 82---which was ALSO sarcasm! "How much longer will you judge unjustly and favor the wicked? YOU think you are gods, but I SAY you will DIE LIKE MEN..." In pulling the Scripture out as He did, Jesus confused them, and kept them from stoning Him. Actually, they TRIED AGAIN to SEIZE Him, but He did another "supernatural stunt" and "eluded their grasp"...

Now I've known people to say... "the Word was God, and Jesus was the Word in the flesh, so he was God in the flesh." But John never makes this clear conclusion in his writings so how can we add it ourselves?

Click to expand...

In Jn1, "The word flesh-became, and tabernacled among us." Only JESUS did that. Verse 15 says "John bore witness saying, 'He who comes after me is BEFORE me (higher than)' "---this is unmistakably simply repeating Matt3:11: "He who comes after me is MIGHTIER than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals." This too was referring to Jesus---"I baptize you with water, but Jesus baptizes with Holy Spirit (for believers) and fire (Hell for sinners)."

4) Why would Jesus hide this fact from His disciples?

Click to expand...

It was not hidden, but spiritually revealed. See Matt16:16.

Establishing that Jesus is a separate person from the Father does not deny His GODHOOD; we (believers in the Trinity) also understand that. But we understand that three PERSONS, separate and distinct, capable of talking to each other---together comprise one GOD.

Jesus had no beginning, existed before birth, before Abraham, before the world. Jehovah's Witnesses confuse "firstborn of all creation" (Col1) as BORN-FIRST---but it is only "RANK, PRE-EMINENCE" (authority). Same chapter, "firstborn from the dead"---authority even over death.

All those verses I gave you before---in Matt4:10 Jesus acknowledges that ony GOD shall be worshipped---so when HE accepted worship, either He was BLASPHEMING or He knew He was God.

In John14 Jesus says, "Why do you wanna see the Father? Do you not know that I am in the Father and the Father is in ME? If you have seen ME, you have SEEN THE FATHER!" Conveying His equality with God, boldly. Similarly in John 6, they were saying, "Is this not JESUS, whose father and mother we know?" (as in: "we saw Him grow UP, who does He think He IS?!") Jesus was conveying, "I am FROM the Father (IE Messiah), all that come to the Father, He gives to ME." Trying to explain that salvation is through HIMSELF.

Jesus said, "I will lift them up". Speaking of believers, to eternal life. Expressing His godly authority in bestowing eternal life to believers. Not "GOD will raise believers", but "I MYSELF will raise believers".

This answer your questions better???