Chicxulub: Before or After the Flood?

dad said:

Well, even Walt Brown envisioned stuff being propelled with great force up into space. This was even under present laws. Since the indications are that these laws were not here, meteors in some number are likely. Especially on the moon, and planets, as the debris would have shot out from the earth.

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Walt Brown? Walt Brown is an embarassment even to other Professional creationists! Maybe he is goofy enough to embrase your non PO Past idea....hmmm... maybe you should contact him.

Show us the indicators that nature laws were not in existance during The Flood. And no, your error-prone interpretation of scripture isn't enough.

dad said:

Great, so show us this special shape in Chix. Also, talk to us about the shocked quartz there, if any.

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CACTUSJACKmankin showed you some shocked quartz. There are only two ways to produce them... impact from a large meteor or asteroid, or nuclear explosion. As far as the rest, since you are the geology expert, you tell us what you predict from an impact crater, and how you would differentiate it from a pre-split Flood crater. Or do you have nothing?

CACTUSJACKmankin said:

you keep asking us to elaborate on the shocked quartz but it is infact the presence of shocked quartz that establishes impact causation.

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Well, that seems to be true. So I guess we need to look at whether that impact came from up or from down to up.

The size of the crater means that the rock was HUGE, frighteningly huge.

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If it was a fountain of the deep. huge is fine. Nothing scary about it. So I see you claim that rock was what impacted the area. Can you prove it? Let me guess, the rock was dashed to smithereens in your scenario, so all we have is..?

The size of the crater combined with other geological evidence of the same period (something creationists have a very hard time with) such as the iridium saturated strata and the timing of the impact event coinciding with the mass extinction of 75% of the fossil record of the time, means that the effects were also huge and widespread. This is THE impact that ended the reign of the (non-avian) dinosaurs 65 million years ago.

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The timing seems possibly close to that of the flood. At least the presence of the material that comes from deep below, and above in space (iridium) would be a possible clue. The mass exinction also is suspicious. However, of course, the flood was not caused just by any one fountain, so if they attribute all the effects in climate, and death of creatures, etc to that alone, they miss the big picture.

Lastly, your pics..were they from the Chix site?? If so, What direction is what? Do you know? What was up and what was down, in the scratch mark direction?

Split Rock said:

Walt Brown? Walt Brown is an embarassment even to other Professional creationists! Maybe he is goofy enough to embrase your non PO Past idea....hmmm... maybe you should contact him.

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His ideas were a great input. It makes one think. He used physics alone, however, so one could not expect a perfect explanation. But the evidences that he gathered, still make a lot of sense, such as that things shot up from the earth at the time of the flood. Despite the weakness of the mechanism (a same state past subterranean explosion of water and debris upward, from the great pressure)

Show us the indicators that nature laws were not in existance during The Flood. And no, your error-prone interpretation of scripture isn't enough.

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The chief record of the flood is the bible. In that book, we see that all kinds were on the ark. That means hyper evolving had to have happened, since we know the times involved. The tree that grew after the flood, in a week or so also confirms that the rapid growth was still in effect. We also had long lifespans. We also had water above the earth, that is impossible under today's laws, I would think? etc.

CACTUSJACKmankin showed you some shocked quartz. There are only two ways to produce them... impact from a large meteor or asteroid, or nuclear explosion.

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Now, we know of just 2 ways, of course. That isn't an issue. The fountain or crater was long ago. He showed pics, yes, from where, I will wait to find out! Also, we need to see if the direction was down to up, or not, can we do that?

As far as the rest, since you are the geology expert, you tell us what you predict from an impact crater, and how you would differentiate it from a pre-split Flood crater. Or do you have nothing?

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Don't patronize. The thread is about a claim being put forth. We are just looking at that claim. We have not yet established it is a crater. A crater, may be merely a same state stab in the dark at explaining what we see.

dad said:

I would think? etc.

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Ever notice that Dad's posts are full of 'etc. etc. etc.'?

Might as well be saying 'I dunno...other imaginary stuff!'

dad said:

His ideas were a great input. It makes one think.

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And laugh.

He used physics alone, however, so one could not expect a perfect explanation. But the evidences that he gathered, still make a lot of sense, such as that things shot up from the earth at the time of the flood. Despite the weakness of the mechanism (a same state past subterranean explosion of water and debris upward, from the great pressure)

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So, you're willing to set aside your usual "Different State Past!" blather because this guy tells you what you want to hear without it.

Orogeny said:

Ever notice that Dad's posts are full of 'etc. etc. etc.'?

Might as well be saying 'I dunno...other imaginary stuff!'

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Ever notice that I asked a real question, like what direction the quartz was representing? Funny you have nothing to say on the actual topic.

dad said:

Ever notice that I asked a real question.

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I don't think anyone's ever noticed -- which is odd, since you would think such rare events would be noteworthy.

Nathan Poe said:

I don't think anyone's ever noticed -- which is odd, since you would think such rare events would be noteworthy.

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No problem, I doubt many expected you to deal in the issues.

dad said:

No problem, I doubt many expected you to deal in the issues.

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Nobody particularly cares to wade through an ocean of blather searching for something that might be an actual issue.

Perhaps if your questions wore an orange floatation vest, they'd be easier to spot?

Nathan Poe said:

Nobody particularly cares to wade through an ocean of blather searching for something that might be an actual issue.

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The topic deals in claims. Looking at what is actually known of the direction of the force that shocked the crystals is paramount. Honest and serious debaters must deal with that. ...You are dismissed..

dad said:

His ideas were a great input. It makes one think. He used physics alone, however, so one could not expect a perfect explanation. But the evidences that he gathered, still make a lot of sense, such as that things shot up from the earth at the time of the flood. Despite the weakness of the mechanism (a same state past subterranean explosion of water and debris upward, from the great pressure)

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Tell us how exactly the different state mechanisms would affect such events? Oh yeah... you can't, becasue you just made it all up.

dad said:

The chief record of the flood is the bible. In that book, we see that all kinds were on the ark. That means hyper evolving had to have happened, since we know the times involved. The tree that grew after the flood, in a week or so also confirms that the rapid growth was still in effect. We also had long lifespans. We also had water above the earth, that is impossible under today's laws, I would think? etc.

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The Bible says nothing about "hyper evolving."
The Bible says nothing about rapid tree growth.
The Bible says nothing impact craters formed from debris shot up into the air.

dad said:

Now, we know of just 2 ways, of course. That isn't an issue. The fountain or crater was long ago. He showed pics, yes, from where, I will wait to find out! Also, we need to see if the direction was down to up, or not, can we do that?

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So, if there is a pattern of debris or shocked quartz that indicates an angle trajectory, will that mean you will admit to being wrong? If not, what is the point in looking this stuff up for you?

dad said:

Don't patronize. The thread is about a claim being put forth. We are just looking at that claim. We have not yet established it is a crater. A crater, may be merely a same state stab in the dark at explaining what we see.

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Experts have already established it is an impact crater. You are nothing but an echo of a bored armchair philosopher making up stories and claiming you speak for God.

CACTUSJACKmankin said:

1) Well it's a crater not a dome so obviously it came from above.

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Nope. It was deemed a crater, but the features might be explained by things coming up from below as well.



Some people looking at features like this, if not informed, might think it looks like a crater as well..

2) When we say impact we mean by a space object like an asteroid. IOW, from above!

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Water that came from above could have also contained stuff from above.

3) Water can't make that!

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That depends. If the area was a conduit for mist from below, over time, or not. If so, why not have deposits form around the edge?

An impact crater the size of Massachusetts, a global geologic layer (jealous?) filled with iridium which earth almost exclusively gets from space objects,..

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It now gets exclusively almost...which is meaningless, unless the past was operating in this present state, which is not known. In fact there is no reason to assume it did. There is great reason to assume it did not. You might take note that iridium also is found deep in the earth!

a fossil record that contains a mass extinction at the same time as the impact,

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The time of the flood would be known for that, also, obviously. Chix seems like a same state grasping at straws to try to explain things.

and other geologic evidence of trauma. That's called evidence, what do you have?

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Trauma and a destruction of life on earth, and worldwide flood, and subsequent state change all fit well.

you're just saying that, back it up.

iridium = space object, NEXT!

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Space and deep in the interior of earth. Both places were involved in the flood.

because you don't believe in the fossil record?

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Of course I do, what about it??

Sadly, it is you who are missing the big picture. This crater is evidence of an event that was much more destructive and much more terrifying than any flood. Revelations' wildest imagery doesn't hold a candle to what this thing actually DID.

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In your dreams. You merely give false credit to some feature...Trying to explain planet wide massive effects with it.

If humans were around, we wouldn't have had 2 worry about a flood and we wouldn't still be here to argue about it. The reality is that if you believe in a young earth then life was either still recovering from this when the flood happened or vice verse.

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Only in your same state dreams, though, so we were fine, thank you very much. Maybe some people used to come to the area for a nice hot mist bath in the morning, before she really blew and opened up, if it was a fountain of the deep. You scare to easy.

both images are of shocked quartz found at Chicxulub.

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OK. So which way was up? How do you know what way to hold the little fragment, so that it shows which direction the imacting stuff came from?? I think there are holes the size of Kansas in your story.

Split Rock said:

Tell us how exactly the different state mechanisms would affect such events? Oh yeah... you can't, becasue you just made it all up.

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What events? A fountain of the deep?

The Bible says nothing about "hyper evolving."

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Putting all kinds on earth in one place 4500 years ago says a lot, to the thinking mind. Look around, there are hundreds of thousands of species and etc at the moment. Nothing else could fit.

The Bible says nothing about rapid tree growth.

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Plants made on day three. The garden was PLANTED. We ate stuff days later from it. If that is not rapid, nothing is.

Noah sent out a bird. No trees. A week later...a fresh twig. They knew the coast was clear, and rejoiced, and were confident it was OK to come out. If trees grew as they now do, that would make no sense at all.


[/quote]The Bible says nothing impact craters formed from debris shot up into the air. [/quote] We haven't determined that yet. We are looking at the evidence. But it does say that the fountains of the deep were 'opened' and that the heavens were opened as well. Face it.

So, if there is a pattern of debris or shocked quartz that indicates an angle trajectory, will that mean you will admit to being wrong? If not, what is the point in looking this stuff up for you?

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If that evidence existed, it would have to be looked at. I would like to know whether I have to clobber the erea from above with something that had shot up, or not! But remember, we need a direction. Not in some other formation, that may have been indeed an area of impact, but here in Chix.

Experts have already established it is an impact crater. You are nothing but an echo of a bored armchair philosopher making up stories and claiming you speak for God.

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The experts so called are biased dummies. At least from the evidence so far.

Split Rock said:

The Bible says nothing about "hyper evolving."
The Bible says nothing about rapid tree growth.
The Bible says nothing impact craters formed from debris shot up into the air.

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The Bible says a lot about meteorite impacts.

Experts have already established it is an impact crater.

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That is a meaningless statement if there ever was one.

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert." -- Arthur C. Clarke, author, 1999

You are nothing but an echo of a bored armchair philosopher making up stories and claiming you speak for God.

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I'm a bored armchair philosopher and I agree with you that Chicxulub is an impact.

Does that mean you're wrong?