Learning From Islam

clirus

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Learning From Islam

I believe Christians can learn a lot from Islam, because I believe Islam is a window to the Old Testament and understanding God. Some would say understanding the Old Testament is unimportant, but God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same so that I believe it is important to understand both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I do not believe it is possible for Jesus in the New Testament to teach something different from what God teaches.

The concept of the infidel is very strong in the Old Testament. Some would like to thing of the infidel as an unbeliever, but another way of thinking of the infidel is as the enemy. If you think of the infidel as an unbeliever, they represent no threat, but are just waiting to hear the good news. If you think of the infidel as the enemy, then there is concern and action is required.

Some would say the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament was nothing more than proving to man that man has a sin nature and needs a Savior, but I believe the Ten Commandments identifying the infidel within a society and requiring that the infidel be removed from society in order that society survives. That is the concept of removing the rotten apple before it ruins the whole barrel.

The question is how to remove the rotten apple.

In Islam, it is automatically assumed the infidel is the enemy and is to be killed as soon as an opportunity is available. The adulterer is to buried in sand. The hand of the theft is be cut off.

In Judaism, the people were instructed by God to stone to death those that violated the Ten Commandments.

In Christianity, each Christian is told to examine themselves, but to eradicate that which is offending. Matthew 6:29 states, And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

But Christianity exists in a world of infidels/evil so how does Christianity deal with those that are evil. This is the importance of Civil Law. I believe Civil Law was intended to do that which Christians were told not to do, and that was to not kill as individuals (taking the law into your own hands). Through Civil Law and a jury trial the evil person can be eliminated from society as an execution, which is very similar to the concept of stoning by the congregation as instructed by God.

Civil Law does not have to be the Ten Commandments as it is in Islamic Law or Mosaic Law, but Civil Law should never violate God's Law. It would be unrealistic to execute a person for not loving God with all their heart and soul, but it is perfectly reasonable and required to execute people for murder, rape, stealing, etc. in order to keep the rotten apple from ruining the whole barrel.

I do not accept the way Islam deals with evil, but I respect Islam for recognizing there is evil.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.

There is great danger when evil people get in control of government/Civil Law because they will not execute evil people, but they will legalize things that violate God's Law such as inappropriate contentography, abortion and homosexuality. I do not believe God will tolerate evil to be legalized.

Who controls the government/Civil Law is politics.

I believe in Separation of Church and State as the Church has no right to execute, but has a responsibility to define morals, and the State has no right to define morals, but has a responsibility to execute.

If America were a total Christian Nation, then Civil Law could be God's Law, but since America is a mixed nation of Christians and Atheists, I believe it is best to use a double standard. If the Bible defines something as evil, that should be a red flag, then if physical reality showed that it leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, then it is evil and Civil Law should protect society from the evil.

inappropriate contentography, abortion and homosexuality are condemned in the Bible and physical reality show they lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty.

The Church and State fighting each other is a lose lose situation, but to the Atheist, Christians are the non believers.

Some would say I am taking away from Jesus, but I believe Jesus and the New Testament are how Christian should live, and the combination of the Old Testament and New Testament is how Christians should govern.
 

jgarden

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Wars are scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood. And murder–which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual–is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!
—Cyprian of Carthage

Therefore, no longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture’s authority declares that ‘whoever is a friend of this world is an enemy of God.’ Whoever serves as a soldier with the sword is the servant of death, and whenever he sheds his own blood or that of another, this will be his reward: he will be regarded as guilty either because he caused his own death or because of his sin (of killing his enemy in war.)
—Paulinus of Nola (A.D. 355-431), Letter 25, To Crispinianus

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
—Hippolytus of Rome

Christians could never slay their enemies. For the more that kings, rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more Christians have increased in number and grown in strength.
—Origen Contra Celsius Book VII

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism
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The leadership of the early Christians were diametrically opposed to "clirus'" views.

They would contend that above all, human life is "sacred," and there is no moral reason to suppose that the civil law of the "group" (capital punishment) should be any different from that of the actions of the individual (taking the law into your own hands).

For the early Christians, killing was killing, no matter what the provocation, and irrespective of the "window dressing" society might use to justify it.

In short, for them the end never justifies the means and that nobody, particularily a Christian, should ever allow themselves to be placed in a position passing judgement as to whether another individual should live or die.
 
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clirus

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Wars are scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood. And murder–which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual–is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!
—Cyprian of Carthage

Therefore, no longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture’s authority declares that ‘whoever is a friend of this world is an enemy of God.’ Whoever serves as a soldier with the sword is the servant of death, and whenever he sheds his own blood or that of another, this will be his reward: he will be regarded as guilty either because he caused his own death or because of his sin (of killing his enemy in war.)
—Paulinus of Nola (A.D. 355-431), Letter 25, To Crispinianus

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
—Hippolytus of Rome

Christians could never slay their enemies. For the more that kings, rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more Christians have increased in number and grown in strength.
—Origen Contra Celsius Book VII

Christian pacifism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
**********************************************************
The leadership of the early Christians were diametrically opposed to "clirus'" views.

They would contend that above all, human life is "sacred," and there is no moral reason to suppose that the civil law of the "group" (capital punishment) should be any different from that of the actions of the individual (taking the law into your own hands).

For the early Christians, killing was killing, no matter what the provocation, and irrespective of the "window dressing" society might use to justify it.

In short, for them the end never justifies the means and that nobody, particularily a Christian, should ever allow themselves to be placed in a position passing judgement as to whether another individual should live or die.

You can say they were Christians, but the following are God's instructions.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:3

Numbers 21:3 "And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah"

Deuteronomy 2:32-34, "Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

How can they be followers of Jesus Christ, when God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same?
 
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jayem

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it is perfectly reasonable and required to execute people for murder, rape, stealing, etc. in order to keep the rotten apple from ruining the whole barrel.

In your theonomy, is capital punishment really required for stealing? IIRC, under Mosaic law, the punishment for theft is to repay the victim above the value of what was stolen, or for the thief to be sold into slavery if he couldn't make restitution. Execution was prescribed for defiling the temple or Ark (stealing from which might qualify as such.) And there's a passage in Exodus where God says (according to Moses) that he will take the sword to anyone who takes advantage of widows or orphans. I'm not aware that thievery is otherwise a capital offense in the Bible, but I'll stand corrected if other passages confirm this.

P.S. Bernie Madoff might actually deserve it
 
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clirus

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In your theonomy, is capital punishment really required for stealing? IIRC, under Mosaic law, the punishment for theft is to repay the victim above the value of what was stolen, or for the thief to be sold into slavery if he couldn't make restitution. Execution was prescribed for defiling the temple or Ark (stealing from which might qualify as such.) And there's a passage in Exodus where God says (according to Moses) that he will take the sword to anyone who takes advantage of widows or orphans. I'm not aware that thievery is otherwise a capital offense in the Bible, but I'll stand corrected if other passages confirm this.

P.S. Bernie Madoff might actually deserve it

I appreciate the correction.

Sounds like something that should be implemented as good Civil Law.

However, the phrase "sold into slavery" should be "convicted into servitude" to be consistent with the American Constitution.

Amendment XIII
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime
whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United
States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
 
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