"Advanced Atheism"

I've been reading several works about LaVey's Satanism and, thus far, I've come to the conclusion that LaVeyian Satanism is an attempt to keep the appealing attributes of religion (purpose, mystery, psychodrama, community, kinship, ritual) in life without accepting spirituality. In a way, it seems to be Atheism with all the positive attributes of religion added on. I dunno. It seems like Satanism is a form of "advanced atheism" devived from psychology and the natural wonder of the unknown. Just wondering about your views of Atheism and the appeal religion has ot people. (Please don't just say "LaVey was a moron" or something. I know hes contraversial and alot of people dont like him, but i respect the guy and would more so like your ideas about religion and its psychological affects and Atheism in general.)

Iscariot said:

I've been reading several works about LaVey's Satanism and, thus far, I've come to the conclusion that LaVeyian Satanism is an attempt to keep the appealing attributes of religion (purpose, mystery, psychodrama, community, kinship, ritual) in life without accepting spirituality. In a way, it seems to be Atheism with all the positive attributes of religion added on. I dunno. It seems like Satanism is a form of "advanced atheism" devived from psychology and the natural wonder of the unknown. Just wondering about your views of Atheism and the appeal religion has ot people. (Please don't just say "LaVey was a moron" or something. I know hes contraversial and alot of people dont like him, but i respect the guy and would more so like your ideas about religion and its psychological affects and Atheism in general.)

Click to expand...

I would say that LaVeyan Satanism draws too heavily from Christianity to be a form of advanced atheism derived from anything. LaVeyan Satanism would be meaningless to an atheist who used to be a Buddhist in Thailand or a Hindu in Bangladesh. It draws the ritualism and pageantry you are speaking of directly from Christianity not just religion in general. I would also disagree with the idea that LaVeyan Satanism somehow draws from psychology to make itself richer. Psychologists would say that images in our culture that are made extremely taboo (such as the figure of Satan in a predominantly Christian world) only hold a fascinated obsession with a very slim minority of the populace. If any "form" of atheism is derived from psychology it is Secular Humanism with its drive to do good and build a better world which directly related to human consciousness and psychology.

Also, psychologically speaking, I believe that the appeal of LaVeyan Satanism is usually found among people who feel injured or insulted by Christianity in some form. By playing up imagery considered blasphemous or evil by Christians the Satanist can attack Christian norms and social ideas. It becomes a sort of psychological retribution game in my honest opinion.

I have read LaVey's works and I find them interesting but not exactly new. The Marquis de Sade did it better. Baudelaire definitely did it better with his Litanies to Satan in Les Fleurs du Mal. I personally do not see his ideas as a form of advanced atheism because atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god, it does not imply any sort of worldview so Satanism can't be a souped-up atheism because atheism is a lack of belief, nothing more. What people say after they say "I'm an atheist" (such as "I'm a Satanist") really are different from their atheism.

As to the appeal to the unkown I find that lacking in LaVeyan Satanism. Printing Enochian keys in the back of The Satanic Bible seems a bit odd for me. Enochian "magic" hinges on a belief in god. This just seems like idea theft.

I would say that LaVeyan Satanism mainly stems from a psychological need to offend. Baudelaire once said that there was an aristocratic pleasure in offending people. I think LaVey takes from Christian imagery just for the carnivalesque fun of it (he was a freak-show/carnival worker himself) and borrows from Secular Humanism and egocentrism to build a stronger worldview for people who don't believe in god.

All in all, I always am a bit suspicious of any "form" atheism that seems obsessed with a religion, in this case: Christianity.

I would disagree with your statement about psychology and the abcence of its involvment in Satanism when you look at the "lesser magic" of Satanism. "Lesser magic" is, basically, Psychology applied to real life situations.

I would agree that Satanisms symbolism would appeal to a slim minority of the population, which, I feel, was the reason LaVey adopted it. He is, I think, using taboo symbols to ward off those who do not have the understanding to see the point behind his message. After all, the CoS website states on their welcom screen they are "Looking for a few outstanding individuals."

I agree that Satanism is a "psychological retrobution game" with christian imposed social norms. And I think its about time.

I think LaVey himself, would agree with the statement that what he wrote was not new. He says in the Satanic Bible that the Meta-Tribe always has existed and, in some form, exists in everyone. He simply attempted to give symbol a name to it.

The best explanation about the Enochan keys being printed I can give is that LaVey intended their to be a "willful suspention" of ones beliefs about reality and intentionally adoption of the fantanstic. The Satanist intentionally uses fantasy to fulfill the psychodrama necessity that their human ego desires. No Satanist really is praying to anyone or anything when they recide The Keys, except their own emotions and mentality.

And your "secular Humanism" interpratation is right on in my opinion. Really, thats was Satanism is, just placed in a religious context.

I am leary about seeing Satanism as "obsessed" with Christianity. Many of its symbols are devived from different herecies of the christian church, (Baphomet for example), but then again, there is a Call to Cthulu in the Satanic Ritual... and last time I checked, H.P. Lovecraft isn't consitered Christian Cannon. haha.

Iscariot said:

I would disagree with your statement about psychology and the abcence of its involvment in Satanism when you look at the "lesser magic" of Satanism. "Lesser magic" is, basically, Psychology applied to real life situations.

I would agree that Satanisms symbolism would appeal to a slim minority of the population, which, I feel, was the reason LaVey adopted it. He is, I think, using taboo symbols to ward off those who do not have the understanding to see the point behind his message. After all, the CoS website states on their welcom screen they are "Looking for a few outstanding individuals."

I agree that Satanism is a "psychological retrobution game" with christian imposed social norms. And I think its about time.

I think LaVey himself, would agree with the statement that what he wrote was not new. He says in the Satanic Bible that the Meta-Tribe always has existed and, in some form, exists in everyone. He simply attempted to give symbol a name to it.

The best explanation about the Enochan keys being printed I can give is that LaVey intended their to be a "willful suspention" of ones beliefs about reality and intentionally adoption of the fantanstic. The Satanist intentionally uses fantasy to fulfill the psychodrama necessity that their human ego desires. No Satanist really is praying to anyone or anything when they recide The Keys, except their own emotions and mentality.

And your "secular Humanism" interpratation is right on in my opinion. Really, thats was Satanism is, just placed in a religious context.

I am leary about seeing Satanism as "obsessed" with Christianity. Many of its symbols are devived from different herecies of the christian church, (Baphomet for example), but then again, there is a Call to Cthulu in the Satanic Ritual... and last time I checked, H.P. Lovecraft isn't consitered Christian Cannon. haha.

Click to expand...

My answer to the lesser magic as applied psychology would be, why the extra bells and whistles? Why the need to call the Baphomet or hold mock masses? I will accept the answer, "Well, it's fun!" But, I don't think that answer really justifies building a worldview around Satanism.

Also, in relation to the "few good individuals" idea and the slim appeal of Satanism: well, that's kind of my point. Satanism is far too minute to be an important atheistic worldview.

As to the "intentional adoption of the fantastic" that you mention: that's the huge problem with religion. When we suspend rationalism and accept the fantastic we can be duped into doing anything or believing anything. Adopting the fantastic is not a good practice in my book or a good idea.

If someone wants an ego-driven, life-affirming and self-interested philosophy I would say pick up a copy of Atlas Shrugged. Want a reason to go on living in a cruel world? Read Camus. Want an atheist driven attack on formal religion? Hitchens and Dawkins are ready and waiting at your local bookstore. But LaVey? I don't know; I just can't see it as a strong philosophy capable of forming a good base. It may be fun but I don't see building a personal philosophy around it.

And even with the Lovecraftian humor in LaVey there is still no doubt that Satanism is motivated by disdain for Judeo-Christian ideas. It cannot be universal by its very nature. By playing with heresies throughout Christianity's history, it is still focusing completely on one specific worldview. A vitriolic attack against Christian morals may be fun to read but it doesn't really build a lot on that.

And to be perfectly honest, and I do not mean this as an attack or a display of rudeness, I don't know of a single influential Satanist in the intellectual or public domain. It seems more of a fancy of the young and disenfranchised than a true and sober attempt at understanding anything.

Iscariot said:

I've been reading several works about LaVey's Satanism and, thus far, I've come to the conclusion that LaVeyian Satanism is an attempt to keep the appealing attributes of religion (purpose, mystery, psychodrama, community, kinship, ritual) in life without accepting spirituality. In a way, it seems to be Atheism with all the positive attributes of religion added on. I dunno. It seems like Satanism is a form of "advanced atheism" devived from psychology and the natural wonder of the unknown. Just wondering about your views of Atheism and the appeal religion has ot people. (Please don't just say "LaVey was a moron" or something. I know hes contraversial and alot of people dont like him, but i respect the guy and would more so like your ideas about religion and its psychological affects and Atheism in general.)

Click to expand...

I have never read anything by LaVey and that is an interesting insight you have come to conclude but I can't really agree or disagree. I think religion especially monotheistic religions like Christianity gives people a false sense of hope they will eventually live forever in the after life if they continue to live up to the requirements of their religion. Atheism on the other hand totally emancipates a persons mind from such religious dogmas and restraints. It is the ultimate enlightenment. It is allowing reason to prevail in ones life. Reason over faith is the only higher judge of truth and the only means by which we as humans are capable for gaining knowledge. That's why I think all humans should be athiests. Religion needs to go. It should have been abandoned many years ago but unfortuneately it has not. There is a reason for that too but I'm not going to go into that right now.

LaVeyan Satanism is the kind of hedonistic "philosophy" that totally appeals to adolescents and young adults in their "misunderstood genius"-phase. You know, the kind of people who haven't yet acquired the social expertise to grasp that it's not all about them, and that they aren't persecuted martyrs whose path to greatness is blocked by society at large.
Ah, sweet narcissism. So immature.