Hebrews 6:4-6

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Charis kai Dunamis

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Hello all. :wave:

Most everyone should be somewhat familiar with this passage, with all of the variations of interpreting, translating etc. It is so quickly quoted by most semi-pelagians as though it is an "end-all" to the OSAS (once saved/always saved) doctrine.

Specifically on the reformed side, I have heard many different highly qualified men giving completely opposite interpretations in order to sustain the OSAS position. The majority of these I found to be unsuitable in the context. After jumping around through all of these different views, I just had to sit back and accept that I didn't have an answer to this text.

But I finally think that I have come to the correct understanding, and would like input from my Calvinist cohorts as to whether this satisfies the text.

Most would agree that the main idea of the book of Hebrews was to persuade the diaspora (dispersed Jews) that Jesus Christ truly was the Messiah in a systematic fashion, and that He was the perfect and final atoning sacrifice, higher than angels, a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek, etc. Obviously, this must be established first before trying to interpret the passage, yet so many try to interpret Hebrews 6 in a 21st century Christian mindset.

Here goes:

Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

My view is this: that those in verse 4 are the recipients of the letter, and even generally, all of Israel, in history, back to the giving of the law and the promises; the Jews. It quite easily follows that the Jews as a people:

1. Have been enlightened (they had spiritual understanding, were given the law, had prophets among them, etc.)
2. Tasted of the heavenly gift
3. Partook of the Holy Spirit
4. Tasted of the good word of God
5. Tasted of the powers of the age to come (were promised a future kingdom, an heir to the throne of David)

So, if indeed it is given that those in verse 4 are the Jewish people, then, to continue on, if they "fall away", it is impossible to renew them to repentance. That is, if the Jews who are receiving the letter reject Jesus, and go back to their old rituals under the old covenant, then it is impossible for them to ever be saved, since they then sacrifice Christ again and again, similar to their currently inadequate sacrificial system, making him less than a perfect and final sacrifice.

To support, I appeal to Hebrews 10-

Hbr 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

So, as it was said in chapter 6 that it would be impossible to renew them if they reject Christ, here it is expounded upon. The Jews who go on sinning willfully (there is no sacrifice for intentionally committed sins) after rejecting Christ no longer have any sacrifice for their sin. This means their sacrificial offerings are worthless apart from Christ, as the writer makes clear-

Hbr 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The writer is saying to the Jews "accept Christ now, or else, expect a terrifying judgment (v. 27), because your old sacrificial system will never be able to save you."

I think this fits the context better than any interpretation I have heard. It still needs some work, but I think it fits for the most part.

Criticize it all you want, that's why I put it up. I want to see if it holds.
 

max1120

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JesusFreak5000: I think your interpretion sounds reasonable. The book was written to a jewish audiance and the passage does seem to fit more with what you have suggested.

Some have suggested it warns agains christians loosing salvation. I reject this view and do not think it is possible to loose salvation.

Hebrews is also a contraversal book because it barely made it into the cannon. It took until the late 4th century to be accepted. The author is anonymous and some have said it was Paul who wrote the book but modern scholars differ and believe it could not have been written by him.
 
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heymikey80

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I've heard bases of constructing this argument before, and I think your argument does them one better -- a better foundation for constructing the argument systematically.

My main objection would be that Heb 6:4 doesn't refer to things that would normally be attributed to Jewish heritage, but to Christian. On the other hand, an early dating of Hebrews would assert that, given the audience, and given the clear fact that Christianity is Jewish in thought and practice, would not permit a clear division of the two.

I would only caveat one thing. Wuest's point was that these people were getting the things of Heb 6:4 personally, not corporately. So the Apostle's talking specifically to individuals going through these steps.

But there are definitely different wayt to take this passage, and your construction is more realistic to me than others I've tried to understand on this basis.

I'm generally persuaded of a different view. To me the Apostle isn't distinguishing in Heb 6:4-6 nor in the Heb 10 passage between appearance and reality. He's talking to a group of people and assuring them, while warning how to treat and the depth of division needed from any remaining defectors.

He's addressing a mixed group. And he's distinguishing some individuals from others.

The "falling away" isn't falling away from possession of salvation. It's falling away from the typical fashionable indications of salvation. Heb 6:4-6 is remarkable for its lack of reference to the apostate's faith. This is the "Apostle of faith" writing. He wrote Chapter 11, the Hall of Fame of Faith. He's pointed out constantly since the start of the book the criticality of faith (see the start of Heb 4 for just one example).

And here he's gonna forget it?

Nah. He's pointedly excluding it. It really is obvious by its absence, as he brings it back up in Heb 6:12 by contrast, and actually talks about other things as "things that accompany salvation."

So to me, the Apostle is pointing to "In the case of those enlightened ... partnering with the Spirit ... tasting the gifts ... and falling away", they're not to be pursued for conversion. They're to be thought traitors and held guardedly by other Christians, who should not openly commune with them as if they were Christians, but to consider them like you might consider a thicket of thorns, or an animal trampling the most precious sacrifice of Christ.
 
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AndOne

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I'm guessing your using the ESV - which I think drops the ball in regards to this text. I prefer the NIV and KJV renderings of the text which quantify verse 6 by stating "if they fall away..."

With the phrase "if they fall away..." in the text the whole meaning changes in regard to eternal security. It is a statement of what could happen "if" they fall away - but the implication is that they can't with that quantification.

I'm not up on my Greek - so I really have no idea what the intent was in the original language but I have read and heard that the meaning can be taken either way. The problem with the ESV or NLT translation however is that it leaves no room for reconcilliation. In other words - those who have fallen away really do have no hope for repentence. That is a killer to the Arminian and Semi-Pelagion who want to use this text to support their views of "responsible grace" or "conditional security" because it simply leaves no room for those who fall away to ever be able to get back to Christ. The very people they spout their "conditional security" to using this verse to back their view are left destitute and doomed with no hope.

I believe it has to be a quantifying statement of what could be - but is not definate because it is impossible to loose salvation. It supports the Calvinist position and leaves hope for those who though fallen were probably not saved to begin with. This is why I prefer the KJV or NIV in this case. It's ironic to me that the ESV is the big "Reformed" Bible of the modern day when it renders Hebrews 4:6 the way it does. It does more to support and uphold the Arminian position than the Calvinist one.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Thanks for the comments, guys.

I'm using the NASB...

the greek in 6:6 is "καὶ παραπεσόντας"

I'm not sure what case of "παραπίπτω" is used here. It is possible it could be conditional, however I doubt the NASB would render it "and have fallen away" if it was in fact conditional.

I'll look it up and get back to you.
 
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beloved57

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The key to understanding this passage is realizing, paul was speaking supposedly, that is if one who didnt persevere in the truth, this would manifest their false profession in the first place, but he dispels any concept of loosing salvation by these very important and neglected truth right here:

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

See that, thou we thus speak..in other words, thou i just gave you this Illustration of one falling away and the consequences, yet I am persuaded differently of you, and the things that accompany salvation..mainly newbirth..Those who are born again are secured forever, cant be unborn..but God will preserve them unto the end and keep them from falling jude :

24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 
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AndOne

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I'm not sure what case of "παραπίπτω" is used here. It is possible it could be conditional, however I doubt the NASB would render it "and have fallen away" if it was in fact conditional.

I'll look it up and get back to you.

After looking into it myself (a while ago) - I've found there is a lot of debate and disagreement among various theologians and Greek experts as to it being conditional or not. It is why (I think) different versions render it differently.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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After looking into it myself (a while ago) - I've found there is a lot of debate and disagreement among various theologians and Greek experts as to it being conditional or not. It is why (I think) different versions render it differently.

Here is what I have on the word παραπίπτω, as per the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Gerhard Kittel, volume 6, pp. 170-172.

The word as a verb outside of the NT means

-to fall aside or aside
-to stumble on something by chance
-to be led somewhere or other
-to be led past, to go astray, to be mistaken
-to make a mistake (an accidental or pardonable mistake)

In the LXX, the verb occurs eight times, as well as a few times in apocryphal books. The majority of occurrences are in Ezra, and all mean "a mistake", or simply "sin". The noun form παράπτωμα occurs 19 times in the LXX. It is interesting to note that its Masoretic equivalent is used in Daniel 6:5 not in relation to a "mistake to God", but rather a mistake in official matters. In Job 36:9, παραπτώματα is used to refer to "transgressions", which although plural, can also denote it's use referring to one specific sin. A similar verse would be Ezekiel 14:11, in which παραπτώμασιν is used with פשע being its Hebrew equivalent.

The word group wasn't very significant among philosophy, the only interesting information I see is that its noun was used to mean "to befall".

For this part I will quote word for word:

The verb παραπίπτω occurs only in Heb. 6:6 : (6:4) Ἀδύνατον γὰρ τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας ... (6:6) καὶ παραπεσόντας πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν. Although the sense seems to be "fallen away", along the lines of ἀποστῆναι ἀπὸ θεοῦ ζῶντος in 3:12, παραπίπτω does not mean "to fall away", but "to offend," "to fall," "to sin," as in the LXX. In elucidation one may adduce Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων in the related Hb. 10:26, especially as the reference in both cases is not to specific offenses as such, but to these as the expression of a total attitude.

I have more on the noun used throughout the NT if anyone else would like to hear it... however I think the above paragraph helps a lot, especially in the idea that 6:6 should be conditional as Behe's Boy pointed out. Kittel says 10:26 uses similar wording, which is conditional; "For if we sin wilfully" (KJV), "For if we go on sinning willfully" (NASB).
 
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Ben johnson

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Can a non-Calvinist comment? (The beauty of an internet message-board, is that posts can be ignored if desired.) :)

"Fall", is participle; "and fall-ING" --- it's stated as a fact, not a hypothetical.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#conc/6

Now --- those who fall, were "metochos-partners" with the Holy Spirit. Metochos occurs also in Heb3:1 (partners in a heavenly calling), and 3:14 (partners in Christ). Please someone explain how "partaker/partner" can be only a "superficial" (not indwelt) experience (especially when the other occurrences clearly indicate "saved").

Thanx in advance...
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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"Fall", is participle; "and fall-ING" --- it's stated as a fact, not a hypothetical.

No one said it was hypothetical, Ben.

Now --- those who fall, were "metochos-partners" with the Holy Spirit. Metochos occurs also in Heb3:1 (partners in a heavenly calling), and 3:14 (partners in Christ). Please someone explain how "partaker/partner" can be only a "superficial" (not indwelt) experience (especially when the other occurrences clearly indicate "saved").

Thanx in advance...

The word μέτοχος refers to "cooperation with" or "coming along side". It does not in any way require that one be "indwelt".

I can get a detailed summary on μέτοχος if you wish, Ben.

My assertion was that the Hebrew people (as a collective) partook of the Spirit. There obviously many examples of Jewish people having relations with the HS in the OT, David being one. The Jewish people "cooperated" with His work, yet, were not indwelt permanently by Him, which seems to be the idea here.

So it's not "superficial". At least, the view I am proposing.
 
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Achilles6129

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Specifically on the reformed side, I have heard many different highly qualified men giving completely opposite interpretations in order to sustain the OSAS position. The majority of these I found to be unsuitable in the context. After jumping around through all of these different views, I just had to sit back and accept that I didn't have an answer to this text.

"22Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?" Isa. 2:22

So, if indeed it is given that those in verse 4 are the Jewish people, then, to continue on, if they "fall away", it is impossible to renew them to repentance. That is, if the Jews who are receiving the letter reject Jesus, and go back to their old rituals under the old covenant, then it is impossible for them to ever be saved, since they then sacrifice Christ again and again, similar to their currently inadequate sacrificial system, making him less than a perfect and final sacrifice.

Your interpretation of Heb. 6:4-6 is way off the mark, as has been the interpretation of the established modern christian church for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. It is talking about something quite deep and impossible to explain in five minutes. However, as proof that your interpretation is totally incorrect, look here:

"20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." 2 Pet. 2:20

This is talking about the exact same idea as in Heb. 6:4-6, except that Peter is talking about FALSE TEACHERS, not Jews, here.

"21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2 Pet. 2:21

I'll show you something else:

"20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev. 3:20

Those in Heb. 6:4-6 and in 2 Pet. 2:20-21 LEAVE THE DOOR SHUT. They don't OPEN THE DOOR. And, by the way, don't trust the modern christian interpretation of Rev. 3:20, because their interpretation of it is an utter and total farce. Good luck.
 
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heymikey80

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heymikey80,

Can you get me that reference by Wuest as to his denial of a corporate address? I've got some of his word studies and books, if you don't wanna give me the exact quote let me know what book you got it from. Thanks
Sure. The book is fairly old, "Golden Nuggets from the Greek New Testament": p. 20-22, "The 'Falling Away' of Hebrews 6":
There is but one sin spoken of in the Book of Hebrews, namely, the act of a First Century Jew who has left Judaism, ... has identified himself with the visible Christian church, and ...now is in danger of renouncing that faith and going back ....

Here is the case of Jews who professed faith in Christ, who going along with the Holy Spirit in His pre-salvation work, had been brought into a place of repentance, to the very threshold of salvation. They had made a contract so to speak with the Spirit, willingly being led along by Him. Now, should they refuse the proffered faith and return to Judaism, they would be breaking their contract which they made with the Spirit.

... this was apostasy, a most serious sin. These Jews had been made partakers, "partners", see Luke 5:, same Greek word, of the Holy Ghost, going along with Him in His pre-salvation work. Now to reject His further ministrations, was a most serious thing from which act there was no recovery.
Clearly I don't hold his exact view. I don't feel that Heb 6:4-6 is so limited in application, and I found Wuest's view artificial at first, and his idea that it's hypothetical, I don't think that. But I think your expansion makes his view more understandable and plausible.

I agree with you that the Book of Hebrews is a corporate address in point of fact. That's quite clear. But I see the Apostle calling out personal distinctives -- in fact he may be talking directly about people who have actually taken this path. His words are so specific and direct. "in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and have fallen away" If we were in the congregation listening to these words, my guess is we would recall specific people who left. The description is concrete, palpable, visible. I don't consider it hypothetical. So I'd have to agree with Bruce and Wuest that this describes people -- not principles.

Well, Wuest to an extent. Wuest points out that "and falling away" could grammatically be hypothetical (something Bruce disagrees with). And it is an odd abstract participle on the heels of this concrete string of attributes. But that could be more attributed to the Apostle not wanting to stick his fingers in stinging wounds. To actually say what these people did, could have been horrendous, humiliating to God, and leaving the congregation stunned again by their actions. So there's alternate reasoning why the "falling away" is so abstract.

I still tend toward the view that this verse isn't deciding the person's internals of faith -- about which only God knows certainly -- but deciding on externals. He's treating the one falling away based on what they saw, as falling away. The consideration of his prior partnership with the Spirit is that it's exhaustive. And to me that's critical. Even partnering with God's Spirit -- all the things we would see accompany salvation, these have been exhausted on the one falling away. And so there's only one road left to follow with this person: treat him according to his visible defiance.

He's fallen away from the congregation, though -- because we're not evaluating "internals", we can't demand that this is about salvation (even though it's strongly related). To project that into falling from salvation is to assume things we don't know, things about faith. Do we know he's faithless and not just a coward? No, we don't. But then, the Apostle keeps that door propped open by his equivocal language, "near cursing, headed for burning" and even "but beloved we're persuaded of better things concerning you".

We're limited. We have to go on limited appearances. And really this is a corporate instruction to those who have continued on with Christ, how to understand or evaluate people who have fallen away from these specific partnerships and gifts of the Spirit. That much is explicitly stated in Heb 6:4-6. In fact the Apostle takes pains to say he's not warning the people he's addressing -- cf. 6:9. He's talking about people who have fallen away from the congregation, gifts and partnership with the Spirit.
 
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packermann

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Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
My view is this: that those in verse 4 are the recipients of the letter, and even generally, all of Israel, in history, back to the giving of the law and the promises; the Jews. It quite easily follows that the Jews as a people:
1. Have been enlightened (they had spiritual understanding, were given the law, had prophets among them, etc.)
2. Tasted of the heavenly gift
3. Partook of the Holy Spirit
4. Tasted of the good word of God
5. Tasted of the powers of the age to come (were promised a future kingdom, an heir to the throne of David)
So, if indeed it is given that those in verse 4 are the Jewish people, then, to continue on, if they "fall away", it is impossible to renew them to repentance. That is, if the Jews who are receiving the letter reject Jesus, and go back to their old rituals under the old covenant, then it is impossible for them to ever be saved, since they then sacrifice Christ again and again, similar to their currently inadequate sacrificial system, making him less than a perfect and final sacrifice.
To support, I appeal to Hebrews 10-
Hbr 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
So, as it was said in chapter 6 that it would be impossible to renew them if they reject Christ, here it is expounded upon. The Jews who go on sinning willfully (there is no sacrifice for intentionally committed sins) after rejecting Christ no longer have any sacrifice for their sin. This means their sacrificial offerings are worthless apart from Christ, as the writer makes clear-
Hbr 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The writer is saying to the Jews "accept Christ now, or else, expect a terrifying judgment (v. 27), because your old sacrificial system will never be able to save you."
I think this fits the context better than any interpretation I have heard. It still needs some work, but I think it fits for the most part.
Criticize it all you want, that's why I put it up. I want to see if it holds.

I am afraid you seem to be trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. They may have been Jews, but they are Jews who already converted to Christ. Only a Christian can be enlightened to spiritual things. Only a true, born-again Christian could have tasted the heavenly gift, could have partaken of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the powers to come. If this was about Jews who never became Christians, it cannot be said that they ever partook of the Holy Spirit.

Not only that, but they have fallen away. A person who never turned to Christ could not fall way - he was never with Christ to begin with. To fall away implies being in a state from which you fell.

The Catholic position takes both verses at face value. When one turns to Christ, is baptized, is born-agin, then all his past sins are wiped away. But our future sins are not wiped away. If we (gravely) sin deliberately after we are born-again we can and will go to hell. But, praise God, this is not the only passage in scripture. In 1John chapter 1, it says that "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins". This means that if we refuse to confess our sins to God, then God will NOT forgive our sins. This does not take away from Christ's final sacrfice on the cross, anymore than the initial conversion and faith in Christ takes away from Christ's final sacrifice.
Christ's death on the cross was once for all. But that does not mean that our realization of the benefits of the sacrifice was once for all on the cross. If that was true, then faith and conversion on our part would not be necessary - since everything would have been finished on the cross. There would be no need for evangelism. Everybody would be saved. Salvation would have been completed on the cross.
But that is not the case. Although Christ purchased our salvation on the cross, each one of us must do certain things to apply that finished salvation to ourselves. Each of us must repent and believe the gospel. So in one sense salvation is finished on the cross, and in another sense it is ongoing. Each one of us must repent and believe in order to apply Christ's sacrifice to themselves. This part most Protestants agree with. But when Jesus said we must "repent" and "believe", the tenses are in the present, continous tense. We must continually live a life of repentance and life of faith. If we stop, we fall away. So Christ's sacrifice is once for all. But our reception of this sacrifice is continuous throughout our lives.
 
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heymikey80

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The idea that Protestants only hold to initial repentance isn't born out in Protestant thought.
Moreover, as hatred of sin, which is the beginning of repentance, first gives us access to the knowledge of Christ, who manifests himself to none but miserable and afflicted sinners, groaning, laboring, burdened, hungry, and thirsty, pining away with grief and wretchedness, so if we would stand in Christ, we must aim at repentance, cultivate it during our whole lives, and continue it to the last. John Calvin, "Institutes", Book 3, Ch. 3, Sec. 20
The reasoning is definitely different. But for a clear reason: the rules have changed. God's not talking about adherence to a quid-pro-quo system of law. God's talking about an radically different system, a system of favor on a life born of His Spirit.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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I am afraid you seem to be trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. They may have been Jews, but they are Jews who already converted to Christ. Only a Christian can be enlightened to spiritual things. Only a true, born-again Christian could have tasted the heavenly gift, could have partaken of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the powers to come. If this was about Jews who never became Christians, it cannot be said that they ever partook of the Holy Spirit.

The whole premise of your argument is built on this one idea.

Are you telling me that Israel, as an elect nation (in the OT), never "partook" of the Spirit, that is, enjoyed the blessings of His workings through the prophets and through the giving of the writings? Are you also saying that they have never tasted of the powers of the age to come, although they were promised a kingdom, and a king to rule from the throne of David? And further, are you saying that they haven't tasted of the heavenly gift, that is, salvation?

Apparently these are all misconceptions...
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Sure. The book is fairly old, "Golden Nuggets from the Greek New Testament": p. 20-22, "The 'Falling Away' of Hebrews 6":
There is but one sin spoken of in the Book of Hebrews, namely, the act of a First Century Jew who has left Judaism, ... has identified himself with the visible Christian church, and ...now is in danger of renouncing that faith and going back ....

Here is the case of Jews who professed faith in Christ, who going along with the Holy Spirit in His pre-salvation work, had been brought into a place of repentance, to the very threshold of salvation. They had made a contract so to speak with the Spirit, willingly being led along by Him. Now, should they refuse the proffered faith and return to Judaism, they would be breaking their contract which they made with the Spirit.

... this was apostasy, a most serious sin. These Jews had been made partakers, "partners", see Luke 5:, same Greek word, of the Holy Ghost, going along with Him in His pre-salvation work. Now to reject His further ministrations, was a most serious thing from which act there was no recovery.
Clearly I don't hold his exact view. I don't feel that Heb 6:4-6 is so limited in application, and I found Wuest's view artificial at first, and his idea that it's hypothetical, I don't think that. But I think your expansion makes his view more understandable and plausible.

I agree with you that the Book of Hebrews is a corporate address in point of fact. That's quite clear. But I see the Apostle calling out personal distinctives -- in fact he may be talking directly about people who have actually taken this path. His words are so specific and direct. "in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and have fallen away" If we were in the congregation listening to these words, my guess is we would recall specific people who left. The description is concrete, palpable, visible. I don't consider it hypothetical. So I'd have to agree with Bruce and Wuest that this describes people -- not principles.

Well, Wuest to an extent. Wuest points out that "and falling away" could grammatically be hypothetical (something Bruce disagrees with). And it is an odd abstract participle on the heels of this concrete string of attributes. But that could be more attributed to the Apostle not wanting to stick his fingers in stinging wounds. To actually say what these people did, could have been horrendous, humiliating to God, and leaving the congregation stunned again by their actions. So there's alternate reasoning why the "falling away" is so abstract.

I still tend toward the view that this verse isn't deciding the person's internals of faith -- about which only God knows certainly -- but deciding on externals. He's treating the one falling away based on what they saw, as falling away. The consideration of his prior partnership with the Spirit is that it's exhaustive. And to me that's critical. Even partnering with God's Spirit -- all the things we would see accompany salvation, these have been exhausted on the one falling away. And so there's only one road left to follow with this person: treat him according to his visible defiance.

He's fallen away from the congregation, though -- because we're not evaluating "internals", we can't demand that this is about salvation (even though it's strongly related). To project that into falling from salvation is to assume things we don't know, things about faith. Do we know he's faithless and not just a coward? No, we don't. But then, the Apostle keeps that door propped open by his equivocal language, "near cursing, headed for burning" and even "but beloved we're persuaded of better things concerning you".

We're limited. We have to go on limited appearances. And really this is a corporate instruction to those who have continued on with Christ, how to understand or evaluate people who have fallen away from these specific partnerships and gifts of the Spirit. That much is explicitly stated in Heb 6:4-6. In fact the Apostle takes pains to say he's not warning the people he's addressing -- cf. 6:9. He's talking about people who have fallen away from the congregation, gifts and partnership with the Spirit.

Very good. I never thought of it that way. I'll have to look into it some more...

I've got Wuest's "Bypaths of the Greek New Testament", but not "Gold Nuggets". I'll have to check my Father's library, I'm sure he has it.

Thank you very much for this.
 
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packermann

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The whole premise of your argument is built on this one idea.

Are you telling me that Israel, as an elect nation (in the OT), never "partook" of the Spirit, that is, enjoyed the blessings of His workings through the prophets and through the giving of the writings? Are you also saying that they have never tasted of the powers of the age to come, although they were promised a kingdom, and a king to rule from the throne of David? And further, are you saying that they haven't tasted of the heavenly gift, that is, salvation?

Apparently these are all misconceptions...


This passage is not talking about Israel as a nation but individuals.

Sure, there were cases of OT Jews individually having the Holy Spirit. David asked God not to take His Spirit from him. The prohets defintely had the Spirit upon them. But these cases were very few. If you read the OT all the way through, you would see a stiff-necked people who constantly wandered away from God. The prophets predicted that in the the last days (the days of the new covenant) the Holy Spirit will be poured out. Only in the New Covenant is it promised that God will replace their heart of stone with a heart of flesh, and write His Laws on their heart. The tasting of the heavenly gift was a promise that was reserved when the Messiah came. This promise was reiterated when John the Baptist said "I baptise you with water, but He shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit". So it hard to see that there was a significant amount of Jews who would have had a personal relationship with God apart from Christ, who then lost this personal relationship once they heard and rejected Christ.

But your interpretation is definitely possible. And that is the problem. ANY interpretation is possibly right, when it is based on one's own interpretation. But if one were to read this passage without any preconceived ideas about eternal security or OSAS, one who get the idea that this passage is saying that Spirit-filled Christians who fall away would go to hell. At face value this is the most likely interpretation, and for the first 1,500 years of Christianity, this is how it was interpreted.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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"22Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?" Isa. 2:22



Your interpretation of Heb. 6:4-6 is way off the mark, as has been the interpretation of the established modern christian church for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. It is talking about something quite deep and impossible to explain in five minutes. However, as proof that your interpretation is totally incorrect, look here:

"20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." 2 Pet. 2:20

This is talking about the exact same idea as in Heb. 6:4-6, except that Peter is talking about FALSE TEACHERS, not Jews, here.

"21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2 Pet. 2:21

I'll show you something else:

"20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev. 3:20

Those in Heb. 6:4-6 and in 2 Pet. 2:20-21 LEAVE THE DOOR SHUT. They don't OPEN THE DOOR. And, by the way, don't trust the modern christian interpretation of Rev. 3:20, because their interpretation of it is an utter and total farce. Good luck.

Posts like this don't really help me.

Your refutation of my proposed interpretation is questionable at best.

Give some more information... like maybe more than 5 minutes?
 
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