Hillsong and other Pentecostal Churches...

laumelilu · Dec 3, 2002

Hey Guys,

I just want to clear some stuff up.. because i don't want to be a cinical person! haahaa....

I live in Sydney Australia, right near Hillsong Church, I am a christian however am HIGHLY sceptical of Hillsong Church... I'm not sure if its bad to be a sceptic or not!????

I have attended the youth group once and I must say got the shock of my life.

I'm a little concerned at its focus on money... as well I also went to highschool with many members of the church, all are from exceedingly rich families and drive nice big BMW's. A seperate sermon just for the offetory!??? The preacher then saying.. "clear out your wallets for God"

The Music also got me... i am a bit of a music critic so not really a fan of any "christian/gospel" music, (although when i finally one day find a decent christian band i will be overjoyed!) I just found that the focus of the church seemed to be on a performance instead of teaching and having fellowship with God.. it all seemed to be focused on the band and the lead singer.

I'm not Condeming the church at all.. I however, as i mentioned before am really sceptical.

Why are all these Hillsong goers rich.. i often joke with my brother about "Being annointed" as our dear friend mr benny hinnes (is that how you spell it) tells people.. and that we are blessed by God to be prosperous...

Personally i think this is incorect as i believe we are called by God to live unmaterialistic lifestyles and give our money to the poor take up our crosses and follow God.

Again as far as giving Goes did not God say.. give cheerfully and not under compulsion??? For God loves a cheerful giver???

The other thing I am concerned about is the building of a huge standium like thing! ITS HUGE... yes i know i know they have heaps of members.. but o we really need the greatest technology, the biggest builkding.. whatever!

Also, John howard was at the opening... if i'd known he was gonna be there i would have had a group of protesters down there! (heheheee just had to slip that in for the conservative liberals of ther area.. of course which there are many of - rich get richer poor get poorer.. ahh liberal! gotta love them)

Maybe I have it all wrong.. maybe its a wonderful thing.. Can someone please explain to me the issues I have brought up from the "Hillsong/Penticostal" perspective!

Laume

shout2thelord · Dec 3, 2002

I do thing its good not just to accept things but to test the spirits as the Bible says. Though we sing a lot of their stuff at our church and the song shout to the lord truly touched me. (hence the nicname).
Also I dont think they collect the money for themselves the musicians are volunteers who dont get paid. Even though there may be some emphasis on money i dont think that people are forced to give God knows were your heart is.
Also ive read a lot of stuff by Darlene Zschech - she writes some amazing stuff on worship and is just so humble. I was reading an article wrote by a guy who had seen them on the US tour and Darlene had said to them this isnt Darlene Zschech ministries and said that she couldnt do anything without the team and was just crying when she introduced them all. Ive seen her lead worship and she seems so lost with God in worship.
Brian houston ive heard speak on tv a few times and seems to talk about different people in his congregation - to me that seems genuine that he has time for the people of the church.
I think that may be this music isnt for everyone or the type of church isnt but different doesnt mean wrong.

Sharky · Dec 3, 2002

I go there in the hills. Heh things like that are weird eh? No need to be skeptical. Let me clear it up for you. Sometimes it helps to know what's behind it rather than what it looks like in front

.

Brian and bobbie who started it up are normal people by the way. They make a living by running the church, selling the albums and all. They're not focusing on money. They income comes from what they started up for God and they are truely blessed to have such an oppotunity to share with so many people that God is there.

In church, just keep in mind they're not forcing you to 'clear out your wallets'. They say that but it's to emphasise it. If you don't feel happy to ive, don't give at all. God doesn't want you to give because you feel like you're being manipulated by them. Sometimes i give sometimes i don't but i give because i want to. Not because they manipulated me. Think of t this way. $20 can satisfy you with a big pizza. $20 can satisfy 50 people with an awesome message from God that will totally satisfy them forever!

A big church right? As before their focus is not on money. It is to reach out to people around the world and they can't do that without money. The new church there is there not to show off big technological stuff but to allow people to admire what God has given them. You can't just think that churches should stay small in rented school rooms during the weekends. The big church is the result of Brian and Bobbies very hard work. And by the way, they are bearing fruit. You can see it clearly. I've seen so many people get saved there.

The music they play is to worship and praise God. Please oh please don't think bad of it. If you are uncomfortable with the way they praise God then try another quieter church. I know some believers who condemn christian rock as devils deception. Yeah right, the devil doesn't want us to worship God. We praise God in high voltage. :clap:

That's just our way of praising God.

It's also funny how when you see someone driving a big car you think they're more on money than anything else. Nope, my faith will be the same regardless if i drove a brand spanking new ferari or a crummy old car. They just have stuff to spare to live for God.

Anything else that's making you uncomfortable?

laumelilu · Dec 3, 2002

I dont mind about the music.. i was saying that I have never found christian music that I like yet...

I'm very serious about my music! heehee...

People are definatley not forced to give money to the church, but there is definate pressure to give alot. Brian Houston, Darlene and Pat Mestiti (although now has umm been i donno found corrupt or something) are all insanely rich people.... where is the money coming from. Darlene I understand is from record sales, i understand that... but Brian.. and Pat...? and the others who are high in the church???

I just get the impression that this church is telling people its ok to be rich and have heaps of materialistic stuff, becasue you are blessed by God.. i have heard it many time when talking to those who go to Hillsong, but i still don't see this as right... Granted I live in Castle hill which is becoming a wealthy area (it never used to be but the prices have gone crazy!!) But as soon as I get enough money to get out of this revolting place i will be away as soon as you can blink!!!!

I even served a lady once at work who was buying this really expensive dress, and i when i asked what the occassion was.. she said to wear to church. She hadnt even told my her church and i said "You go to Hillsong don't you" she was shocked that i knew... but hey... its a huge stereotype i know but you have to be rich and well dressed to attend that church...

I just cant accept that we as christians should be living in materialistic lifestyles, I dont get it... i know we need to have ministry to all people even the rich, but I can not justify in the bible living a comfortable rich lifestyle.

???????

Laume

Sharky · Dec 3, 2002

As before Brian started up their church. The money comes from profit from the albums he sells to people. Tithe goes towards works for reaching out to others and allowing people to get closer to God through activities and interactions. Remember Brian started the whole church up. It's his living. You can find that almost everyone there live content lives. They give to God.

There isn't any emphasis on living a rich lifestyle. People earn money. Some more than others. It's the love for money that is the key thing. Does God want to you live as a beggar on the streets and forget about Him? Does he want us to swim in money and forget about Him? Absolutely not. God doesn't want us to suffer. The idea on money here to to provide a future for people. Unless God wants us to live a poor lifestyle stuggling to pay every debt tax there is and suffer poverty, you shouldn't try to say: "I shouldn't live like that God." when He blesses you with so much. God blesses people's lives. Bible told us many times people have lived in poverty and received miraculous blessings to lift them up.

Don't see it as telling everyone to be rich. Generally i'm content. I don't buy 'gods' for myself. My friends are content. Some have more money than others but they love God not for money but for what He gave them.

By the way God has given us so much we can never repay it. I'm talking about Jesus.

laumelilu · Dec 3, 2002

Hey Sharkie...

Hahaha again about the music thing... i'm not stunned because its loud... i like metal, heavy loud music really doesnt bother me. Again in any church i really dont like music...nothing against Hillsong music its just a personal taste thing!!!

Im definatley not against giving money to God or the church!! NOT AT ALL...!!! I am however very skeptical about having a seperate sermon devoted to it. If we want to give moeny to God wont we give it without being told about it?? I also like to know where my money is going.

I dont believe churches should stay small, but i dont think there should be huge unneccesary stuff.. like i know at my current church they are spending THOUSANDS of dollors on sound systems and all that kind of stuff when the ones we have at the moment are doing just fine. I just dont understand why when that money could go to so many people who need it so much more. If however people in the church could not hear what was being said than yes I can justify spending the money on a new sound system, I just think there are more important things to be spending money on, like peoples lives.

Just to make it clear i'm not just talking about CLC im also talking about my church and others as well! No pointing fingers or anything! Just wondering!!!!

Sharkie, just so i'm clear on your stance.. do you believe that a rich christian is wrong??? hmm maybe "wrong" is the wrong word (heeehee) Do you think it could be umm... I DONT KNOW.... ummm... do you believe it could be "ungodly??" or do you believe that we can justify ourselves if we are rich? as being blessed by God???

Your faith definatley doesnt make a difference if you are rich or poor... NOT AT ALL! I jsut think maybe some priorities are wrong??

Of course i am not perfect either! I spend alot of money on useless stuff... but im trying i really am!!! hahahaaaa....

I hope this isnt offensive....

Laume

Sharky · Dec 3, 2002

nah nothing offensive. I know where your getting at

Being a rich christian isn't wrong. More broadly, being rich isn't wrong at all! There are people God has blessed with riches. It's the love of money that counts as wrong. If you love money more than God, you're insulting our loving father! God gives to you. He blesses you. Being rich isn't wrong no christian or not. Its whether or not you love money more than God. After all He gives you, you don't praise paper notes or coins. You praise God for what He blessed you.

As with upgrading sound systems, putting bigger cameras here and there it's to keep up with technology. You're not going to share a public message using a 10 year old black and white video camera are you? Tithing generally doesn't go to the pastors or whatever. It is put to good use to expand the church. The money pastors get come from their Jobs. In Brian's case, it would be selling his CDs to people around the whole world!

But money given to God is put to God's use. Brians money is his use. God's money is put to His use.

Don't feel too bad about them better speakers or whatever. It's to expand the house of God. Trust me, it is done to do a cause that's bigger than you think.

laumelilu · Dec 3, 2002

Hmm i think im not being clear...

As you will understand Sharkie its getting late... i have an assessment in the morning and im naughty and am on the net instead...

But i will definatley get back to you tommorrow ok!!!!!

Laume

Sharky · Dec 3, 2002

Okay bye

Btw yeah i think you might be a little blurry on the info or point your trying to get at. Sweet dreams. Just put it in a little mroe detail.

I'm still working anyway. Hmm, only 11 pm

shout2thelord · Dec 3, 2002

I think that God is using this church in an amazing way.
I know that Brian Houston has said that he couldnt sign a check from the church because he doesnt have that authority. The money is for God - for the church. Also the way it reaches out to people all over the world through the music ministry and TV programs is because people at the church feel led to give.
I dont trust many Tv speakers cos they talk a load of rubbish but the hillsong programs ive watched have always seemed genuine and never unbiblical.
I trust what Gid is doing there. They money they have also helps to touch many thru the hillsong confrence and other things like that. Its not like they are saying make me rich.

laumelilu · Dec 3, 2002

Hey Guys,

Its not even so much the pastors I'm, worried about, though they all are very rich... it is even the members of the church, well all the ones ive spoken to keep saying "We are blessed by God with money" and are all living rich lifestyles. Is it the teaching there that tells people its ok to live comfortably?? or is it just me speaking to the wrong people!

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where tehives break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where theives do not break in and steal. Fo where you treasure is, there your heart will also be" Matthew 6:19

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, then come, follow me..... I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" Matthew 19:21-24

I honestly believe that to have a big house, huge car, nice clothes etc. is not how God is calling us to live. If however God does Bless us with a great Job where we are earning lots of money, then that money is Gods money, not ours to be spending on comfort. And I'm not just saying giving money to the church either. I'm talking about giving money not just to the church but to other organisations and for your own mission work.

Am i incorrect!? have i taken the bible out of context?? I just dont understand why the biggest church in australia also has the richest people as its members.

Another thing that I spent the whole time laughing at was I think it was christimas? or maybe easter last year... ahh it was highly amusing...

a great little show put together by hillsong on what it is to be a christian etc. It interviewed a few "christians/members" of Hillsong Church, it went into their homes and it was just so funny. Every one they went to was young, attractive, dressed in "General Pants" had a nice house, 2 kids, and a dog... not that there is anything wrong with that but it was just showing the sterotypical view of what a christian is... a nice happy family, in the suburbs, with a nice house. Another thing was they showed a couple who were both blessed by God as "Financial advisers" now I feel very strongly about financial advisers (i used to work for one) and all it is, is a job that involves putting your money into huge multinational corportaions that are stealing from the poor and ruining the environment and then getting richer as a result of it... NOT HAPPY! Then there was what really tickled my tootsies... heehee... They began to compare Jesus to a cup of coffee... Gloria Jeans coffee that is!! I live next door to the owners of Gloria Jeans Australia and they are members of Hillsong. Anyway The whole thing turned into an advertisment for Gloria Jeans Coffees.. "Jesus is like a Gloria Jeans Cup of Coffee, he's not a cheap instant coffee, he is a full bodied coffee, the only coffee a coffee lover should drink!"

It was so distressing i was rolling around on the floor laughing! I really would like to get a copy of that tape... if its on again this year i'll be taping it!

Tell me how on earth can you justify comparing Jesus to a cup of coffee.. it was an advertisment for Gloria Jeans thats all it was! Product Placement at its best!

Ahh... again i make it clear im not picking on Hillsong... alot of other churches in the area, because it has turned into a wealthy area, is full of middle class snobs trying to be upper class, all living with there 2.5 kids etc. Its just Hillsong seems to dominate the spotlight as far as money and riches Go...

Again Just wondering, i hope this isnt offensive!!!!

Laume

Sharky · Dec 4, 2002

again nothing offensive

.

I think i know what you mean. Trust me there aren't alot of rich people there. Even if they are rich, you should pray that they put God's money to good use.

Also on the coffee bean ad. That's just weird! I don't think it's a good idea to match up Jesus with coffee. .Jesus is better than that!

laumelilu · Dec 5, 2002

Sharkie,

It was pretty hillarious... pretty disgusting actually, i couldn't believe it.... i havent bought Gloria Jeans since out of disgust! besides the fact that its a multi national company but *shrug* what can you do!

My boyfriends with his bible study boys are going to Youth Alive tommorrow night, Ive asked him to do some sussing out for me... Im sure its all fine.. i just want to know that I'm not going crazy here!!! It is run by Hillsong isnt it?? or majority run anyway!

Laume

Droobie · Dec 11, 2002

Did you know that Hillsong:

Has an average attendance of 14,000 over the weekend
Has about 33 services across Sydney over a weekend, including Youth, Outreach services, HillsongWomen and Major Worship Centres
Missions go to AOG World Missions in Australia, Auckland CLC, London Hillsong, Kiev Hillsong, 24 Churches in Africa, 23 Churches in Asia, 3 in Europe.
Hillsong TV is screened in over 80 countries in the world, with an audience of around 100 million each week.
"Shout to the Lord" is sung by 25 - 30 million churchgoers each week.
Last year, a gift of 900 CD's to all the US Navy Chaplains was given.
The "Blessed" Album was sent to every leader of the world as a gift.

Okay... that's to name a few... my point is, that one may not understand what Hillsong is doing on appearences, but look at the fruit of what comes out of the Church.

shout2thelord · Dec 11, 2002

Interesting stats Droobie

Wow I didnt know that Blessed was sent to every leader of the world

laumelilu · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by Droobie
Did you know that Hillsong:

Has an average attendance of 14,000 over the weekend
Has about 33 services across Sydney over a weekend, including Youth, Outreach services, HillsongWomen and Major Worship Centres
Missions go to AOG World Missions in Australia, Auckland CLC, London Hillsong, Kiev Hillsong, 24 Churches in Africa, 23 Churches in Asia, 3 in Europe.
Hillsong TV is screened in over 80 countries in the world, with an audience of around 100 million each week.
"Shout to the Lord" is sung by 25 - 30 million churchgoers each week.
Last year, a gift of 900 CD's to all the US Navy Chaplains was given.
The "Blessed" Album was sent to every leader of the world as a gift.

Okay... that's to name a few... my point is, that one may not understand what Hillsong is doing on appearences, but look at the fruit of what comes out of the Church.

Again, I just make it clear that I'm not anti-hillsong, Im just a little concerned!

As you say the average attendance is 14,000 over the weekend... thats great. But the reasons for attending may be a little hazy.. i knew when i went it was like going to see a concert. I'm not trying to knock down everything you have said. But Hillsong is a huge church yes, but it is also a huge concert/performance/social event but small churches have huge impacts as well. I dont really need to know stats on how wonderful hillsong is, i really dont, i'm not wanting people to sell it to me like a product.
All your stats are all lovely and fine but i'm not sure I can see the relevance.

Laume

Hillsong and other Pentecostal Churches...

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